Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 107

Thread: The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery

  1. #16
    Tracy Guest

    Smile Thanks for the great debate...

    Dear Mr. Amudur,

    Thanks for your post it was very interesting.

    However, I would have to partially disagree with your statement:

    "So returning to Herrigel. He may have had some wonderful experiences, even, perhaps appreciating the interwoven nature of the universe itself. In my neck of the woods, that's called getting high, and whether one does it on acid or starvation or discipline, it has no intrinsic value."

    You are absolutely correct in stating that "getting high is of absolutely no intrinsic value" I did not perceive that at all from Herrigal's writings. And since all of us have different levels of observation maybe mine will change after many more years of practice. Although to me (with my background in the Marine Corps, Aikido and Zen) his portrayal seems accurate.


    As for your comments Mr. Hartman. I would merely say that Pokeman cards are a fad until they have withstood 47 years of review. In fact, this article that you so highly proclaim is the only thing I have ever read negatively about Herrigal's work. Which in my opinion is merely a failed attempt to critique his Kyudo style. Like most things, politics shows through (My kyudo is better then your kyudo style...blah blah blah).

    So upon this I will agree to disagree. Time has done this book well and I am sure it will continue attract people to Kyudo. Maybe for the wrong reasons according to what is perceived from Mr. Hartman's style. ; )

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Palo Alto, Ca, USA
    Posts
    1,324
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Tracy:

    Feel free to continue to take the word of a man who didn't uderstand Japanese and who practiced kyudo for only three years against the testimony of experienced kyudo archers, whom I have quoted to you extensively, who have devoted their lives to the practice of kyudo. You will not be the first person to have done so, nor will you be the last. Since you do not practice kyudo, and, apparently, have no intention of doing so, it is of no particular importance.

    Herrigel's book is popular in the West, where people have little or no real knowledge of Japan or its traditions. People here have no frame of reference in which to understand Herrigel's work. It is a wonderful, seductive story, filled with mysterious and mystical events which seem to pass understanding. Based on it, people have drawn certain conclusions about Japan, and kyudo, which, while romantic and pleasant, are, for the most part, erroneous.

    Normally, people will lend more credence to the words of people with greater experience than to those of people with lesser experience. I do not see why you have chosen to do the opposite, but that is your problem, not mine. I started practicing kyudo almost 30 years ago, primarily under the influence of Herrigel's book. Like many people who have read it, I was attracted to the mysteriousness of kyudo and wanted to learn how to do those things that Herrigel described Awa as doing. Through my practice, I found that many of the things Herrigel said, while not outright lies or fabrications, were based on a faulty understanding of what he was doing, which was a result of lack of experience, the inability to understand directly what his teacher was saying, and preconceptions which clouded his judgement. Thus, I decided to rely on my own direct experience and forget about trying to shoehorn what was right in front of my face into the framework that Herrigel presented, always trying to "Zennify" what I was doing instead of just doing it. Once I did that, my kyudo practice made a lot more sense and I was able to see the practice for what it was, and not what someone in a book said it should be.

    In any case, a book is just a book. I would be a fool if relied on that instead of what I learned from my own teachers and through my own practice and experience.
    Earl Hartman

  3. #18
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Princeton, New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    503
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Neither time nor popularity

    error. sorry.
    Last edited by Margaret Lo; 26th April 2001 at 15:52.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Princeton, New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    503
    Likes (received)
    0

    Post Neither time nor popularity

    Originally posted by Tracy
    As for your comments Mr. Hartman. I would merely say that Pokeman cards are a fad until they have withstood 47 years of review.
    Surely neither passage of time nor popularity (or lack thereof) are sufficient defense against assertions of factual error in a given text.

    If Herrigel's work is on trial, time and popularity would constitute only circumstantial evidence of its worthiness.

    If the work was reviewed during the past 47 years, it is not clear that the reviews were adequate. What reviews can be cited and from what sources?


    M
    Last edited by Margaret Lo; 26th April 2001 at 16:04.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Princeton, New Jersey, USA
    Posts
    503
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Neither time nor popularity

    error
    Last edited by Margaret Lo; 26th April 2001 at 16:06.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    3,324
    Likes (received)
    48

    Default

    Earl --

    Now here's a nice discussion of Zen in a collegiate course, and Clay's kyudo website even gets a plug.

    http://www2.canisius.edu/canhp/depar...st/rst330.html

    Margaret --

    On the assumption that the Way of the Reader involves more than reading one 81-page book and then proclaiming "Profound," have you seen the Zen bibliography at http://www.iijnet.or.jp/iriz/irizhtm...o/ejbibind.htm ? The texts listed are all in English, and I'd guess Princeton has most of them. Meanwhile, if you read East Asian languages, back up and then you can read many primary sources online.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    San Francisco
    Posts
    82
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Re: Thanks for the great debate...

    Tracy,
    Re your comments.
    _______________________
    _______________________
    As for your comments Mr. Hartman. I would merely say that Pokeman cards are a fad until they have withstood 47 years of review. In fact, this article that you so highly proclaim is the only thing I have ever read negatively about Herrigal's work. Which in my opinion is merely a failed attempt to critique his Kyudo style. Like most things, politics shows through (My kyudo is better then your kyudo style...blah blah blah).
    ________________________
    ________________________

    The only reason that you may have not encountered any negative reviews may be due to the lack of desire in the western world to criticize a "cornerstone" of (non-Japanese) zen literature. The Yamada article is the result of many years of research and discussion in Japanese with direct students of Awa Sensei, in THEIR native language by another native japanese speaker.

    Having spent 3 of the last 5 years in Japan studying kyudo, zen was never part of the practice nor the instruction. It is not a necessary part of any budo practice. Nor is budo a necessary part of zen practice. It is my opinion that the concentration, intensity, and "no-mindedness" are too often (and too easily) attibuted to zen just because it is a Japanese discipline that embodies these elements.

    I, like Earl, approached kyudo from reading Herrigel's book. I also began studying calligraphy in Japan because of the zen relationship. However, the more I studied, the more I came to realize that zen has little or nothing to do with either. There are great calligraphers that studied zen and there are great calligraphers that didn't. The same with kyudo. Skill comes from practice not from satori.

    And by the way, one of my kyudo teachers also split one of his arrows, and boy was he pissed. Those arrows were about $1000 each.

    Eric
    Eric Montes

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Palo Alto, Ca, USA
    Posts
    1,324
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Hey, Eric.

    $1,000 arrows, huh? Must have had some really nice fletchings. If he just busted the nock, not a problem, but if he wrecked the fletching, yeah, that could have cost him.

    Fortunatley, I just ruined my practice arrows, which are not so expensive. When I use my good arrows, I am always careful to miss my first arrow with my second .
    Earl Hartman

  9. #24
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Just a Point

    Dear Ellis,

    Philip Aitken Roshi refers to this perspective as "Buddhistic," saying that an underpinning of morality (the Eight Noble truths) is required for Buddhist practice.
    It's the Four Noble Truths, the fourth of which is the Eightfold Path of the Noble Middle Way.
    HTH,

  10. #25
    Koji Otaguro Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    Tracy:

    With all due respect, it is clear that you do not know whereof you speak. Professor Yamada is an experienced kyudo archer who studied under the late Inagaki Genshiro Hanshi, who was a student of Urakami Sakae Hanshi of the Heki Ryu Insai-ha (also known as Heki To Ryu). Urakami Hanshi also taught my own teacher, the late Murakami Hisashi Hanshi.
    [/url]
    Hartman-sensei

    I'd like to know what dan or kyu in kyudo Yamada really is.

    regards,

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Palo Alto, Ca, USA
    Posts
    1,324
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Otaguro san:

    Professor Yamada has a 5th dan in kyudo.

    Also, you don't need to call me "sensei".
    Earl Hartman

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Posts
    41
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    while reading a recent post I came across this on aikiweb.

    The credit goes to David Valdez who is listed at the end of the post.

    aloha,

    Tracy Reasoner

    For Yamada, you might want to consider the following.

    Some reasons on why and how to read Yamada cautiously:

    1. Early philosophical positions relating the concept of emptiness to secular activities got a big cultural base to work with during the Muromachi periods. This connection was based upon Ch'an and/or Zen concepts of emptiness -- concepts that were prevalent during that time at the level of culture. This set the groundwork for what would later follow - several sets of evolutions and/or adaptations that made sense of secular pursuits as Ways.

    From Meiji through the end of WWII, secular pursuits, such as the martial arts, were understood slightly differently from during the Muromachi period -- this though emptiness stayed a relevant concept. In particular, the concept of emptiness was used to create a rationale that linked political loyalty to the Emperor, a growing sense of national identity, a foreign policy of territoriality, a sense of serving the state, etc., to things like martial arts training. Awakening, and/or the concept of "no self," were superimposed with the notion of serving the state with complete selflessness. Simultaneously with this came the possibility of speaking of martial arts in a more singular sense -- meaning, this period marks a span of growing homogeneity in terms of discourse, practice, and institution -- a trend that continues on up to the present time. Again, Zen scholars, monks, and institutions (temples, universities, etc.), played a significant role in this second cultural trend.

    The idea that folks generally trained in the martial arts (of any kind) for exercise and/or for pleasure is not a post-Meiji thing -- it is a post WWII thing. Physical education, particularly the martially oriented kind, was firmly linked at many levels of culture to the aforementioned (e.g. serving the state, loyalty to the Emperor, etc.), which was firmly finding support from the Zen thinkers of that time. People did not train merely for pleasure or exercise at any kind of general level until after WWII. Hence, those kind of reasons behind training have to be understood as the contemporary trends that they are.



    2. Today, the fact that Japanese practitioners may only practice the art for physical education and/or for pleasure does not mean that there was no historical basis for noting Zen's role in the continuing evolution of Kyudo. We can understand this if we look at an analogous case in Aikido. Today, in Japan, generally, there is little or no mention of Aikido's spiritual aspects, and most practitioners do in fact only practice for a sense of exercise and/or pleasure -- with not even secular concern of self-defense being primary or popular. This social fact does not lead us to suggest that Aikido has no base for a practical spirituality and especially that it never did. In fact, or rather, it may suggest that Japan has lost its way (pun intended). In the same manner, once we allow a Way its intended universality, and we accept the legitimacy and importance of cultural transportation in that universality, Germany may not be the place that has been led astray from Japanese legitimate culture. It may be the new place at which to study Kyudo at a deeper level -- one deeper than exercise and pleasure.



    3. If one looks for connections in the manner that a reporter would, which is quite different from the manner in which a historian of culture would, one is likely to find support for nearly any position, as nearly any position is plagued by the limitations of its application. Culturally, the issue is not whether Awa liked Zen or practiced Zen or whether he was not a member of any religious tradition or some other tradition other than Zen, etc. Culturally, one is dealing primarily with the nature of a discourse that is supporting both thought and practice. Key to this discourse is the thought that comes out of what are called the wisdom sutras of Buddhism. These sutras are of course central to all Mahayana schools of Buddhism, but it is the Zen tradition that applied this discourse in several ways that are key to the underlying culture at work in the notions of martial arts being thought of as Ways. Zen did this in several different manners, depending upon the period in question.

    Some key periods of contact are: the Muromachi period -- where Zen's discourse on emptiness (which is what the wisdom sutras are centered upon) made a connection between formal Zen training and secular high-culture, etc.; the Tokugawa period -- where the earlier ideas on emptiness were further refined and also underwent more dissemination outside of high culture (e.g. to economy, state-subject identity, etc.); the Meiji to WWII period -- where emptiness was linked to Imperial interests and the newly formed modern Japanese state; and the post-WWII period where scholars and thinkers saw in Zen's understanding of emptiness a chance of regaining some international prestige upon a grand scale following the defeat of WWII.

    A cultural historian interested in epistemology and/or discursive practices is going to look at the history of the concept of emptiness, and when one does, it is certainly not an overstatement to suggest that Zen is relevant to arts like Kyudo. For example, at a discursive level, one can see the concept of emptiness in all of the following works: the Heart Sutra, the writings of Muso Soseki on gardening, Takuan's "Fudochishinmyoroku," Awa's writings, and Yoshida's writings, the religious experience of Awa -- which is more in keeping with what Zen folks during the pre-WWII period were saying about the concept of selflessness as it relates to awakening than it is to Kukai's experience; etc. At the level of culture, at the level of discourse, these things are all related. The relationships between these things exist -- even when the subjects themselves are unaware of them and/or when they suggest something to the contrary. Hence it may very well be the case that Awa didn't approve of Zen unconditionally, or that he never trained with a Zen priest, but it is equally true that he is making use of a Zen cultural discourse.



    4. Herrigal is not guilty of the crime of seeing what he wants to see. Neither can he be accused of putting the cart before the horse. First, Herrigal did not go to Japan to seek Zen. The truth is that Japanese intellectuals, for many many reasons, were re-working earlier Zen positions (from the Muromachi period) during the early 20th century. It is they, both in and outside of Zen, and both in and outside of martial arts, that were offering to the world a "new" understanding of Zen's role in Japanese history -- cementing its future role as well. In that reworking of earlier ideas, and in their attempt to speak to the larger world, these same people drew comparisons to the works of Christian mystics like Eckhart, etc. Herrigal did not make up this connection as a German who knew nothing of Japanese culture. Japanese intellectuals wishing to participate in the growing international scene made the comparisons for reasons of understanding their own culture more fully and then presenting that to the outside world via the growing universal discourse on religion and psychology.



    5. The evidence attempting to refute Herrigal's take on the target in darkness is lacking in its power to refute.

    First: Let us note that the author is trying to counter Herrigal's quoting of what Awa said with an explanation that Awa gave to a second non-present party (at the least or around) ten years after the fact. Even if hearsay could carry some weight, the relevant information would be what Awa said he said that night -- not how Awa understood that second shot. Nowhere are we told what Awa said he said to Herrigal that night.

    Second: Let us note that Herrigal was to some degree governed by the legitimacy of his experience -- meaning, you can't fake mysticism and you wouldn't want to. Remember, he came to Japan seeking an experience he could not obtain in Germany. If he was willing to fake and/or "create" an experience, he would have done it Germany. Moreover, Herrigal was governed by the customs of his scientific training. Hence, he had a priority on accuracy, objectivity, etc. Again, Herrigal is not set to manufacture things. On the other hand, the author's points of refutation come from hearsay and they come, at the earliest, nearly a decade after the fact. Let us also note that as likely as it is for a German trained scholar during the early 20th century to give a priority to accuracy and objectivity, it is very unlikely that an aging Japanese man when queried about an event that happened a long time ago is going to say something like, "Yes, I was demonstrating how enlightened I am." The response, "Oh, it was just coincidence," is totally supported by the cultural norms governing that later conversation (e.g. humility, etc.). It is totally unlikely that such a man at such a time in his life would say anything other than that -- as unlikely that Herrigal would overcome his own cultural conditioning as start falling prey to manufacturing falsehoods or radical interpretations.

    Third: Let us also note that the author first states that Awa was already an eccentric in regards to the rest of Kyudo practitioners. To suggest that he was making a point different from what Herrigal was saying, and that he was not trying to say anything different from any other Kyudo practitioner, seems to contradict this earlier position of eccentricity. Obviously, Awa was trying to say something different -- hence the different set up that night. His point could not have been about "coincidences happen," even if that was his later description to others as an aged man. Moreover, if one accepts Herrigal's interpretation, it is not even relative that the second arrow struck the first -- the point was to see that one could hit without aiming as he was attempting earlier in the day. Neither mysticism, nor Zen, nor Awa's point or Herrigal's understanding, are located in the second arrow striking each other. They are located in point of moving out of one's on way while training in a Way.

    Fourth: We should not so heavily stress the language barrier, since Herrigal at the time of the event had at least five years of in-country cultural exposure to the language by that time. Whatever his skill level might have been, one is not necessarily looking at someone that cannot communicate at all. Moreover, let us know that Awa's first condition for taking Herrigal on as a student was that an interpreter be present. By the time of the event, even Awa must have no longer felt the need for an interpreter since it was he that suggested that they meet alone later that evening. This as well leads to the probability that Herrigal, by this time, was not so burdened by a language barrier.


    6. The "it shoots" refutation actually (ironically) stems from the author's own usage of poor translations of Herrigal's work in German to Japanese. The argument is a dead argument.

    7. The author's main source for Awa's thought and practice is constantly saying that Awa used Zen terms and ideas in his practice -- which is his main refutation of Herrigal's understanding of Awa's ideas.

    8. Chances are that Herrigal, reading a lot of the Zen-oriented intellectuals that were writing during the time in question, and practicing the exercises that go with such ideas (i.e. the reconcilation of the subject/object dichotomy), probably had a better access to the thought of Awa (who was probably reading those folks as well) than Yamada does to the thought of Awa (because he is coming from a different slant and making use or rather not making use of the specialized language of that time and practice).

    __________________
    David M. Valadez
    Visit our web site - www.senshincenter.com - for articles and videos.

  13. #28
    Troll Basher Guest

    Default

    Having read all the above posts I found them to be very “scholastic” and informative.
    I have read the book in question; I have lived in a Zen temple here in Japan. I am by no means a priest, nor would I care to be one.
    I can’t help but think of certain martial arts maxims I have heard or read over the years.
    For example: “Ken Zen Ichi” and “The Way is in training” etc… I don’t think these are just pithy sayings to put on a T-Shirt…..they actually have some weight.
    Conversely there is a saying in Chinese that also is of interest “Dao ke dao feichang dao”…loosely translated means “If it seems like the way then it can’t possible be the way”

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Posts
    4
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hi All,

    Tracy just told me this post I made a while back at AikiWeb.com was pasted here.

    To that I just wanted to add that some folks are addressing some real issues here. In particular, I think anyone that is serious about any Japanese martial art cannot help but to get a little peeved when some beginner comes in wanting to substitute philosophical speculation for actual practice. No doubt, the works of D.T. Suzuki, Herrigel, Watts, and others, have worked as catalysts for these types of frustrations often felt by many an instructor.

    However, there is more to the issue here. Because many an instructor him/herself had to “purify” these misconceptions from their own body/mind (since many were themselves influenced at one time by these works), many instructors are less than tolerant toward the viewpoints of these authors. In this way, one tends to jump back and forth between a frustration and a kind of unreconciled guilt or shame. Somewhere in between all of this is an effort, sometimes justified but sometimes not, to simply smash all of these “resources” and to instead offer something, anything, that can be posited as diametrically opposed. As a result, many a baby has been thrown out with the bath water. For me, this is how I understand the current debate over practice and philosophy/theory in regards to Yamada’s critique.

    From my perspective, Yamada’s critique was not ready for publication. While there were some good points for raising questions, those questions should have led him more to studying the role the book has played for some in Kyudo – as opposed to the reasons why the book should play no role for any. In my opinion, the reason the critique was able to stand as much as it did was that it was on a book that (in my experience) no one reads as a resource in the Academy. No one I know would read “Zen and the Art of Archery” in order to understand Zen philosophy, the history of Zen, Buddhist discourse, the history of Budo, or the social and/or cultural place of Kyudo in Japan today. The only place I have ever seen that book being part of someone’s bibliography is in a freshman or sophomore attempt at meeting the writing requirement for the general education course Religious Studies 25 (Zen). Even then, it is often only by a student that did not bother showing up to class and/or to section like they were supposed to.

    When one combines a critique that probably was published too early in its maturation with an attempt by instructors who are (perhaps rightly) trying to head something off before it starts, one is very likely to throw out the baby with the bathwater. In the end, things are very likely to be mis-attributed. For example, it is not Zen to posit speculation and/or theory in the face of actual practice. As such a thing would not be Budo, it would also not be Zen. If one spends time doing zazen, one knows real fast how central practice is to Zen – how it cannot for one second be replaced by, substituted for, or prioritized under theory. Any “student” that would come to Kyudo, or any Budo for that matter, and attempt to forfeit training (i.e. actual practice) for Zen-esque speculation is a student that would be lost on both sides of this supposed debate. Hence, why my call to read Yamada cautiously is not a call in support of those that want to prioritize theory over practice. In my opinion, theory and practice are two wheels of a cart.
    David M. Valadez
    visit our web site - www.senshincenter.com - for articles and videos

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Kingston, Canada
    Posts
    415
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Many Reasons for Practice

    my experience, limited though it may be, with Japanese martial arts, tea, and Zen, suggests that Earl's (much earlier) posts about enjoying each human activity in their "self-so-ness", to borrow a term from Watts, is right on the money.

    my tea teacher was fond of saying that people practise tea for a variety of reasons. to argue that tea has one singular purpose is to devalue all other legitimate reasons for practising. in particular, he told me that people who see tea as an exclusively Zen practice deny themselves the chance to appreciate other facets of tea.

    Watts also wrote quite clearly that, for the Zen practitioner, one sat for the sake of sitting, not for the express purpose of reaching enlightenment. the sitting position is an effective training expedient, but it possesses no intrinsic "spiritual" value. similarly, i practised tea, aikido, and jojutsu for the sake of practising. it seems to me that living in the Eternal Now has a lot more to do with concentrating your whole energy on each activity you perform rather than weighing each activity down with the desire to experience "enlightenment", like trying to catch your own shadow. whatever reservations David has about Watts as a Zen commentator, Watts strikes me as a reliable source of insights, even from what Watts calls his third perspective, neither awestruck Zen nor rigourously scientific.

    IIRC, the late Kisshomaru-doshu said of aikido, "The purpose of training is, at the end of your life, to be able to look back and say, 'I trained'." trained sincerely, trained openmindedly, trained as though your life were at stake ... that, to me is the heart of martial arts. if it is Zen, then it needs no discussion, for the Way that can be spoken is other than a permanent Way.
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

Page 2 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Self-defence
    By rupert in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 14th July 2005, 07:07
  2. Zen in the Art of Self-Resistance
    By Shenandoah in forum Budo and the Body
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 13th July 2003, 22:02
  3. Zen in the Art of Self-Resistance
    By Shenandoah in forum Close Quarter Combatives
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 18th June 2003, 01:03

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •