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Thread: The Myth of Zen in the Art of Archery

  1. #31
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    Default The kyudo book on zen archery, ha.

    Hello everyone,

    I've been reading this thread briefly and am going to re-read it to take in what some of you have said in a better manner, but there are some things I would like to discuss.

    Firstly, the book "Zen in the art of archery" was never meant to be a guide for Kyudo, infact, Herrigel himself stated (or perhaps it was in the introduction by the person who translated it into english) that the book was about his experiences wtih Zen INSIDE the amazing art of Japanese archery. I find this interesting as Herrigel also states that his intention on removing as much information about his instructor and the setting they practiced in was to focus on the aspects of zen he experienced while undertaking archery. This leads me to believe that Herrigel, though extreme in a lot of cases when talking about all things related to Zen, had absolutely no intention of giving enough information for people to form an idea of any form of Kyudo practice. This was further reinforced when, at the end of the book he discusses sword masters (I think this was his weakest part, personally).

    Secondly, the concepts discussed in the text, the no mind if you will, are something I have, as a martial arts practioiner (Yes, it happens to be a Japanse martial art) have personally experienced. From the writings in the book I was further able to understand what I was personally going through, to help me personally expand my horizons. Now, not being an expert in Zen, it's hard for me to talk about this as if it was Zen, but I do think what he experienced was "real" and you could say untainted by preconvieved notions. I take this from when he discusses his frustrations on drawing the bow correctly. Trying to understand it, before doing it is rather unnatural. You don't get your license without driving a car first, you have lessons in doing with someone who can guide you, much like a martial teacher. Now, for someone not having a guide to draw on, about Zen, and about general spiritual awakenings in martial arts, it might be offbase but not totally incorrect to see one as the other, which leads me to my next point.

    The setting of time when Herrigel had written first his article and second his book, were when he himself states there was little to no writings on Zen in the west. I think of him as a pioneer of sorts. Being a person who likes to theorize things (as much stated in this thread) I'm sure he would be reading as much as he could about Zen, and trying to understand what he was experiencing and seeing it as Zen. Is it not Zen? I personally cannot answer, because I as previously stated am not experienced in Zen. However, during training, and experiecning things Herrigel talks about such as not anticipating.. Having someone about to punch you, and just being, as the punch moves you move, not because you're thinking "oh it's a punch i have to move over there" but you just move. You are just a part of the moment, of an evaded punch, then you apply what striking technique or lock or further evasion, depending on the situation. That is a simular experiene I see as was written by Herrigel. For the time it was written, I think he did an excellent job on describing these spiritual awakenings (sorry to get a bit off topic.).

    All of this brings me to ask some questions (and also search for the answers, of course). Are those spiritual revelations apart of Zen in some way? I'm not saying that they are exclusive to Zen, that kind of "awakening" seems to me to be a part of Japanese martial arts that I have experienced, but does that make them NOT zen? I don't think so. They can be both, at the same time, totally purely can't they? I believe they can. Does that mean when you practice Kyudo (or whatever martial art is it that you do, that has these kinds of spiritual revelations) you are also practicing Zen? maybe in some way. Are these experiences of losing the smaller mind of trying to control what you're doing exclusive to Zen? No. Does that mean when you practice Zen, you're practicing a martial art? of course not

    I hope some good discussion continues,

    Grant Williams.

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    Just a few words on an otherwise uninspired afternoon at the office:

    "Everything is Zen"

    I feel this is rather pretentious. The worldview of a minority sect but is applies to all of us. What do I say to everything! Ooh dear. I wonder why the Zennies do not see "directly" into their own true nature (being rather pretentious). But then this is all beyond me I am sure.

    Oh yes and Earl Hartman does not know anything about kyudo, yeah....

    best,

    Johan Smits

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan smits
    The worldview of a minority sect but is applies to all of us. What do I say to everything!
    Quite the opposite. "It" exists prior to all worldviews, and at the same time forms the basis of all worldviews. That makes it both the source of every worldview and the substance of all worldviews. The infinite excludes nothing.
    But then this is all beyond me I am sure.
    Beyond what?

    Michael Hodge
    Last edited by Michael Hodge; 16th March 2006 at 21:21.

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    Well after many years I reread this post mainly because the CD version of Zen in the Art of Archery has been published and after wearing out my copy on cassette 3 years ago... I will say the narration by Ralph Blum is absolutely perfect...

    I will say again it is more about the student teacher connection... As it was Herrigal who made his teacher what he is... A well talked about master on ebudo...

    : )

    but here is another response debunking Herrigal for your entertainment and reading pleasure:

    Aloha,

    Tracy Reasoner



    Awa Kenzo



    (C) 2005 by Richard Katz





    I've been shooting a bow since I was twelve, and I had read Eugene Herrigel's book "Zen in the Art of Archery" when I was in my twenties, about thirty years ago.



    I've never been bowhunting. One time we had a raccoon out in the backyard who was acting irrationally, overturning our pet turtle and wandering around randomly in the daytime. Finally one night he was standing there snarling at me. I went upstairs, got the bow and quiver of arrows, and when I came back, the coon was standing by the turtle, again. I told him to be gone, and he snarled some more, so I shot him; then he charged at me, gallumphing along with the arrow through him, and foaming. Probably rabid, I thought, as I debated whether to turn and run, or nock another arrow and shoot him again. I didn't actually think about it at all; by the time I had thought it through a little bit, the arrow was already notched on the bowstring and I was aiming at the moving raccoon who was hissing at me and dragging along his body with the first arrow through it. The second arrow pinned him to the ground, and he was still.



    Something had always bothered me about Herrigel's book: If archery is about hunting and killing, and the Buddha proscribes killing, then how could Zen Buddhism and archery get together?



    Maybe this Herrigel character didn't know what the hell he was talking about.



    I've been to Japan a few times, but had never actually seen anybody shoot a bow of the type Herrigel had learned how to use, the Japanese longbow. So on my last trip, a few weeks ago, in July 2005, I thought I might check all that out, about Herrigel, and Japanese archery, and Zen in the art of archery.



    According to a couple of pages on the web*, Awa Kenzo of Sendai was the archer under whom Eugen Herrigel had studied archery, and whom he was referring to in his book "Zen in the Art of Archery" as his master. One thing about Herrigel's book always seemed out of joint: If archery is a martial art, then why didn't Herrigel come out and mention, proudly, who his master was? That's your lineage, in the martial arts: Who's your master? That's your school. In Japanese the technique of archery is kyujitsu; kyudo is the art of archery, or the way of archery, and your sensei is from some school of archery. Whatever you want to call it, in English, kyudo is a martial art, and always referred to as the oldest martial art.



    I had been to half a dozen bookshops in Kyoto looking for anything written by or about Awa Kenzo. In Kyoto, bookshops seem to specialize according to the district they are located in. A bookshop in the textiles district had stacks of books with cloth patterns, yearbooks of kimono pictures, and even books with swatches of dyed silk. A bookshop in the antiques district had books with pictures and text about old furniture and scrolls. I went into one bookstore near a stationery store that had philosophy books, mostly about Buddhism. Nothing by or about Awa. The booksellers were surprisingly definitive about it; "No, nothing," was the usual reply, when I inquired, in my ungrammatical Japanese, "Hon-ga Awa Kenzo chosha-no arimasu-ka? Dozo." I went to the big Kinokuniya bookshop, and the computerized search didn't have anything for me either. Neither did Maruzen. Dead end.



    A friend of mine who is a college president in Shiga, Tanaka Hirokazu, said to go to the Kyoto Prefectural Library. My wife and I went there, but it was a Monday, and the library was, of all things, closed. My wife lectures at a graduate school in Kyoto, and is more familiar with the town than I am. Based on a suggestion from the police, she suggested to me that we go to the Budo Center, just a stone's throw from the Prefectural Library. The Kyoto Budo Center turned out to have a pavilion for sumo, a building for judo, and an archery range for kyudo.



    I have been to a few archery ranges in the USA, but it never occurred to me that at this Japanese range there would be a gallery to sit and watch the archers. So my wife and I stood around at first, for a few minutes, ignorant but polite, looking fairly awkward. Then a man in a robe came over to us, asked me to take off my hat, and instructed us to go through the door over there and take a seat, in the gallery. There were a half dozen archers practicing. The fellow who had seated us came over to the gallery after a few rounds, and told us that his master, who was the white haired archer just over there, was a fifth degree black belt, the highest level of anyone living. We watched him, and the others, for another half hour or so.



    Watching archery practice is at best about as interesting as watching paint dry, unless you are an archer, and even then it's a stretch. Watching this master was just fascinating though. I had no interest in exactly what he was doing; I'll never shoot one of those bows, so the details of how to shoot one aren't of any practical use to me. But make no mistake, this was a lesson in how to shoot, from a master. This guy was smooth; and that breath he took just before he raised the bow was not something he was thinking about, particularly.



    It seemed like there was a break in the shooting, so we left the gallery and went back to the atrium and started putting on our shoes. Our host asked if everything had been okay, and we thanked him, and got ready to go. Just before leaving, I asked him, "Do you know of Awa Kenzo? The archer?"



    He replied, "Awa Kenzo? You know Awa Kenzo? Come with me."



    He led us over to the area, where novices stand a few feet from their straw targets to practice their shot, before they can take to the range. He pointed upward, to a picture of an archer, mounted up twelve feet or so, near the eaves. "That is Awa Kenzo," he said.



    I took my hat off, turned fully toward the picture of Awa dressed in a robe and releasing an arrow, and bowed pretty deeply.



    As we were walking out the front of the building, I asked our host, "Did Awa write anything, anything I could read?"



    "No," he said. "There is nothing. And that German fellow, is a bad, very bad influence."



    We bowed to each other, and my wife and I left.



    Richard Katz, July 2005, Richmond, California, USA. Richard808 AT gmail dot com

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    Thank you Tracy, that was indeed a pleasure.

    Best,
    Ron

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    I find myself somewhat baffled by Mr. Valdez's comments. They are very long and it is not entirely clear to me what he is trying to say. I get the general impression, however, that he supports Herrigel's thesis over Yamada's.

    It is true that as a general concept the idea of "nothingness" "the Void" or "emptiness" or whatever you want to call it may have long existed in Japanese culture and that it probably formed a part of the general zeitgeist. That is a very different thing that saying, as Herrigel does, that the practice of kyujutsu/kyudo is a specifically Zen practice.

    Simply put, Herrigel was wrong. Herrigel gives the impression that kyudo is practiced in Japan specifically as a Zen Buddhist practice and that through it one can achieve a specifically Zen Buddhist enlightenment experience. It is not. The way in which it was discussed may have made use of Buddhistic terms and ideas, and it appears that there was a fad in the Taisho Period to do just that. But kyudo is not Zen Buddhism.

    I do not accept the contention that the ultimate goal of kyudo is the attainment of "emptiness" whatever that may be. The ultimate goal of kyudo is to become good at kyudo. As Urakami Sensei said:

    The purpose of the Way of Shooting is...to strike the target following the Ho (the Law, i.e., the Law of Shooting, or the Shaho).

    That is, the attainment of skill in shooting is the objective.

    Herrigel very specifically said that the attainment of skill and accuracy is not an important consideration and that technique is secondary. He was entirely incorrect.

    Again, Urakami Sensei:

    "Therefore, everyone who wants to shoot a bow must make their intentions true, set their spirit to rights, and make the form of the shooting correct by following the proper standards."

    That is, proper technique is the absolute first requirement. What happens when one can do this?

    "When the form of the shooting is correct, your joints will be properly aligned, the power of your muscles will be properly balanced, your draw length will settle in accordance with your physique, your mind will become settled and distractions will cease to trouble you, your body and limbs will be filled with vitality, you and the bow will become one, your mind and body will be firm and resolute and the bow unwavering, and the entire arrow will fill with power and quicken with life. In this way you must wait for all of these separate elements to unite into one and for the release to come of itself. If you shoot the arrow in this way, you will never miss the target by thinking too much."

    Thus, the achievement of the state of uniting with one's bow, which leads to the kind of accuracy of which Awa was capable, is ONLY the result of proper technique, which in turn creates the proper frame of mind. There can be no kyudo "spirit" without correct kyudo technique. These two things cannot be separated. Yet, Herrigel, with his dualistic Western mind, attempted to do precisely that. Again, he was utterly mistaken.

    "This is not just mosha guchu (a shot done in a haphazard way strikes the target accidentally) but hosha hitchu (a shot done in accordance with the Law never misses)."

    To the archer, it may appear that an arrow shot in this way strikes the target by accident, much as Awa's second arrow struck his first. But it is not an accident. It was a true shot. Awa said that he did not intend to hit his first arrow with his second, that is, he did not consciously aim at it. But it is not so strange. it happens more frequently than one might think. The great disservice Herrigel did was to present this as some sort of magic trick that Awa could achieve by doing a kind of archery that cared nothing for technique or aiming, but relied only on Herrigel's made-up concept of "It" (aka "The Force"). Wrong, wrong, wrong.

    What is really going on in this state of uniting with one's bow and how does one finally achieve it? Urakami Sensei:

    "The essential thing is to just dispel all doubt and ego and awaken to the as-it-isness of Nature, to not lapse into thinking and discrimination, to leave the realm of intention and thought behind, and, like an object reflected in a bright mirror or the moon reflected on the surface of the water, to calm the eyes of the mind in the realm of munen muso (no intention, no thought) and to strive to shoot the arrow according to the Law."

    The archer does not simply pick up a bow, not worry about technique, breathe deeply, blank out and hope that "It" will take over. No, no, a thousand times no. He strives to "shoot the arrow according to the Law", that is, he forgets everything except executing proper technique to the absolute exclusion of everything else. In this process, the archer will lose a concsious sense of himself as he concentrates with all his might on achieving the proper state. In this state, it appears that things happen on their own. But it is not something outside the archer; he creates it himself. When he achieves this state the shot will appear to come of its own. But it is the archer's creation. And to repeat: attaining this state of mind CANNOT happen unless one is first a master of technique. Yet, Herrigel stated that technique mattered not at all. Only a fool could say something like that.

    In any case, I don't understand why Mr. Valdez seems so attached to Herrigel's thesis. He especially seems to have trouble with "The Target In Darkness" episode. Herrigel is on record as stating that his Japanese language skills were weak to the point of non-existence. Yamada proves decisively, based on the statements of Herrigel's own interpreter that Awa's lectures were abstruse to the point of incomprehensibility and that he often could not translate them correctly. Yet Mr. Valdez seems to think that Herrigel understood Awa that night and that it was only modesty that prevented Awa from telling his own senior disciple Anzawa the truth. This seems absurd, frankly. If Herrigel's views on "It" were correct, why did Awa not teach "It" to any of his other disciples?

    I have been practing kyudo for more than 30 years, 11 of them in Japan. No one ever mentioned "It" to me even once. And Yamada's paper clearly indicates the immense difficulty that Herrigel's translators had with rendering Herrigel's "It" into comprehensible Japanese.

    Mr. Valdez seems to believe strongly that Zen exercised a decisive influence on the developement of kyudo. Can he produce some evidence for this? None of my senseis ever talked to me about Zen or meditation.

    Also, kyudo was indeed practiced for pleasure during the Meiji Period. After the dissolution of the feudal domains, archery teachers, having lost their employment, were down on their luck. Many opened training halls were they would allow people to play around at shooting for a fee. Town shooting halls were sometimes located in or near the red light districts and were frequented by gamblers who place bets on shooting contests. Archery (perhaps such archery would not be considered "kyudo" by purists) was in a sorry state after the Meiji restoration, and it took a while for it to regain its standing as an art in which reputable people engaged.

    Also, Mr. Valdez says, inexplicably, that Herrigel dio not go to Japan searching for Zen. Yet Herrigel said that was precisely the reason he wanted to go there, to experience Japan's "living Buddhism". I do not understand how Mr. Valdez could have missed such a plain statement.

    Finally, someone upthread said that Herrigel did not intend his book to be an introduction to kyudo. That may be true. The title makes it plain that he was not really interested in kyudo, only in the Zen that it might contain. That is precisely why he was unable to understand what kyudo really is. But Westerners who read it take it as an introduction to kyudo, unfortunately. I cannot count the number of times where people have come up to me and said "Zen archery? That's that archery where you don't have to hit the target, right?"

    All Herrigel's fault.
    Earl Hartman

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    Mr. Hodge,

    Reading your comment makes me understand it all. "It" exists prior to everything. That makes it the source of everything and the substance of all.
    The infinite excludes nothing.

    "Beyond me" but then this is not possible, since if I am part of the substance of all. I would be saying beyond the infinite and off course beyond the infinite is not a possiblitly. Wouldn't that mean that "me" doesn't exist? And if "me" doesn't exist "us" don't exist. That is quite interesting.
    Perhaps we do not exist.

    But then I wonder why a lot of groups are so very busy explaining us all.
    Without wanting to hurt anyone's feelings I do think religion and worldviews are invented because we people need some form of plaster for the scratches we receive during life. Aah and we need direction, to guide us since the responsability for it all is too much for us.
    In a (maybe) strange way we do keep trying to explain our presence here instead of just accepting it and be good during our lives.
    Now whether the Pope explains, or a zenpriest, a witchdocter or Herrigel for that matter, it is all the same, they "know" nothing. In Herrigel's case that becomes obvious reading this thread. They are just trying to implant their worldview on us - and we scared and lonely as we think we are embrace them.

    We're a bunch of cowards.

    Now you have to excuse me, I guess it's time for my pills.

    best,

    Johan Smits

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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Hartman
    That is precisely why he was unable to understand what kyudo really is.
    Mr. Hartman,

    I would be interested to hear "what kyudo really is".

    Tracy Reasoner

  9. #39
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    Well, I'm not Mr. Hartman, but I have read his post, and it seems he told us in plain language exactly what kyudo is all about:

    I do not accept the contention that the ultimate goal of kyudo is the attainment of "emptiness" whatever that may be. The ultimate goal of kyudo is to become good at kyudo. As Urakami Sensei said:

    The purpose of the Way of Shooting is...to strike the target following the Ho (the Law, i.e., the Law of Shooting, or the Shaho).

    That is, the attainment of skill in shooting is the objective.
    Can't get much more concrete than that.

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    Tracy:

    What Brendan said.

    But if you want to look into it further, go here:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/477...lance&n=283155

    After you have read this, let me know if you have any other questions.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 16th May 2006 at 19:09.
    Earl Hartman

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    Earl Hartman

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finny
    Well, I'm not Mr. Hartman, but I have read his post, and it seems he told us in plain language exactly what kyudo is all about:

    I do not accept the contention that the ultimate goal of kyudo is the attainment of "emptiness" whatever that may be. The ultimate goal of kyudo is to become good at kyudo. As Urakami Sensei said:

    The purpose of the Way of Shooting is...to strike the target following the Ho (the Law, i.e., the Law of Shooting, or the Shaho).

    That is, the attainment of skill in shooting is the objective.

    Can't get much more concrete than that.

    So with that said Kyudo has been reduced to just being good at kyudo nothing more and nothing less. Similar to american bowling. Interesting.

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    Tracy,

    There are similarities between kyudo and bowling you are right but actually you can fill in a lot of different activities. I see very different advantages practicing kyudo has above practicing bowling and I am not a kyudoka.

    With all respect, what is it you want then? Meaning what is it you are looking for?

    best,

    Johan Smits

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    Default Er...

    Quote Originally Posted by TLR
    So with that said Kyudo has been reduced to just being good at kyudo nothing more and nothing less. Similar to american bowling. Interesting.
    While I'd hate to speak for Mr. Hartman (lest he beat me), one could argue that all budo in general is specifically for the purpose of improving skill-sets.

    When practicing kumitachi as shitachi, trying to not be killed by one's senior or teacher is the order of the day; when uchitachi, leading shitachi through while pushing his/her ability. There is a high level of ('meditative') awareness required, but no amount of navel-gazing by itself does the trick, shugyo does. It is hard to imagine that this is not the case for kyudo as well...

    Be well,
    Jigme
    Jigme Chobang Daniels
    aoikoyamakan at gmail dot com

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    Tracy:

    I don't want to sound uncharitable, but until you read the Onuma and DeProspero book I linked to upthread, I really think you should keep your mouth shut. You asked me what kyudo is; I told you to read the best book about it that exists in the English language. But all you can do is indulge in snark.

    Do you actually practice any martial (or any other kind of) art? Or do you just read, talk, and think (oh, sorry, "meditate") about it? Would you ask a violinist "What does it all mean?" and then get all huffy if the violinist just said "I really like music"? Do you want this violinist to say instead "I don't care about technique or what the music sounds like; through the austere discipline of the Way of the Violin I am searching for Truth, the Void and Enlightenment. The music has nothing to do with it"? Pretty stupid, right?

    Yet if an archer says "I want to become skillful at archery" all you can do is smirk.

    You Zen people give me a pain. You clearly have no understanding of what it takes to become really good at anything, and, even worse, you seem to think that the attempt to excel in an art is worthy of nothing but derision.

    If you're not really interested in finding out what kyudo is, do us all a favor and just shut up about it.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 17th May 2006 at 18:11.
    Earl Hartman

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