Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 31

Thread: Shinkage-ryu heiho

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    6,227
    Likes (received)
    118

    Default Akita Moriji's Shinkage Ryu Iai

    I have the De Lange book, Iaido, in front of me now, and here is what it says about Shinkage Ryu Iai:

    The Shinkage school of fencing described in this chapter is a fusion of a variety of traditional martial arts, such as Shinkage-ryu Batto Seiho, Seigo-ryu Iai, Sekiguchi Iai, and Rikishin-ryu Iai. [Emphasis added.]
    This fusion could be why the techniques resemble, but are not identical to, those taught in other Shinkage Ryu schools.

    Regarding the lineage of his branch, it goes on to say:

    All of these styles were originally passed on by the Yagyu family. These styles of martial arts were later passed on to Kashima Kiyotaka by Kinji Toshinaga. In 1936, Kashima Kiyotaka, the master pupil of Yagyu Gencho, received permission to teach what he had learned and passed it on to his students under the current name of Shinkage Ryu Iai. It is this style of fencing that has been handed down to us by Kashima's master pupil, Akita Moriji.

    Around 1945, a number of different names were still in vogue to describe Shinkage-ryu Iai, such as Yagyu-ryu Iai, Shinkage-ryu Heiho Iai, and Yagyu Seigo-ryu Iai. By 1955, however, all of these names had been united into the new name of Shinkage-ryu Iai.
    From this it appears that "Shinkage Ryu Iai" is a post-WWII name for the Iai of Kashima Kiyotaka and his line.

    HTH.
    Yours in Budo,
    ---Brian---

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    243
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Wow, thank you very much! I don't know how I missed that the first few times I read through this book.


    Regards,
    - Alex Dale

  3. #18
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Just as a note, Mr. Matsuoka has further branched away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group, although he is still in Nagoya and has many buyu within that dojo. He does a lot of work with the European Kendo Association and teaches his version of the Yagyu Seigo Ryu Iai kata. Mr. Matsuoka sometimes shows up to the place I practice SMR, so I get to see him once in while and he is a nice guy.

    -Russ

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rotterdam
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mekugi
    Just as a note, Mr. Matsuoka has further branched away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group, although he is still in Nagoya and has many buyu within that dojo. He does a lot of work with the European Kendo Association and teaches his version of the Yagyu Seigo Ryu Iai kata. -Russ
    Hi all,

    since I do not quite understand what you mean by "branching away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group" (who are they?), I hope I can clear up the bit concerning my teacher, Matsuoka sensei. Matsuoka sensei currently represents the main line, if there is such a thing after all, of the Shinkage ryu lineage through Kashima sensei and Akita sensei. The technical part of De Lange's book is about this ryuha. As you can read on another E-Budo thread, Shinkage ryu is based on Yagyu Shinkage ryu hyoho (kumitachi), Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu ("iai"), and other koryu jujutsu ryuha with a batto curriculum.

    Matsuoka sensei's dojo is in Iwakura. Besides, he is the chief teacher in a dojo in Nagoya, and in Kasugai. Since he succeeded Akita sensei as president of the Aichi Kendo Renmei, Iaido Branch, he supervises many ZenKenRen iai events in and around Nagoya as well. Matsuoka sensei also has pupils in France and The Netherlands. His next
    Shinkage ryu iaido seminar
    will be in Rotterdam, 7-8 October 2006. You're all invited, of course!

    Since Kashima sensei had other pupils alongside with Akita sensei (such as his own son, and Kobayashi sensei, and Mori sensei etc.), in turn, the pupils of these other teachers these days teach in many dojo in Aichi and Gifu. Their waza are more or less the same, but their performance and appearance has grown slightly apart by now - which was only to be expected, and that's the way it's always been. Some of them even started to call their version of Shinkage ryu "Yagyu Shinkage ryu," which, of course, is quite impossible, since they have nothing to do whatsoever with Nobuharu sensei's Yagyukai.

    Anyway, hope this helps. Take care!
    Joris van Nispen

  5. #20
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris
    Hi all,

    since I do not quite understand what you mean by "branching away from the Nagoya Shinkage Ryu Iai group" (who are they?)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uyp9K2GgW4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ksvAEaWNzQ

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rotterdam
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Thank you, Russ. But... there still seems to be some kind of misunderstanding here. As has been observed more than once on these fora, there's never been such a thing called Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido. The "iai" practised by Nobuharu sensei's Yagyukai is called Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu. However, I am aware of the fact that some Aichi and Gifu ZenKenRen or ZNIR related groups call what they do Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido nowadays. Since the videos definitely show some branch of Shinkage ryu iaido, not Yagyu Seigo ryu batto, my question remains...: who are they? I have never had the opportunity to meet Mori sensei in person, so this could even be his group performing. Maybe you can clarify this bit for me? Thanks and bye for now,
    Joris van Nispen

  7. #22
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris
    Thank you, Russ. But... there still seems to be some kind of misunderstanding here. As has been observed more than once on these fora, there's never been such a thing called Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido. The "iai" practised by Nobuharu sensei's Yagyukai is called Yagyu Seigo ryu battojutsu. However, I am aware of the fact that some Aichi and Gifu ZenKenRen or ZNIR related groups call what they do Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido nowadays. Since the videos definitely show some branch of Shinkage ryu iaido, not Yagyu Seigo ryu batto, my question remains...: who are they? I have never had the opportunity to meet Mori sensei in person, so this could even be his group performing. Maybe you can clarify this bit for me? Thanks and bye for now,
    Not with me there isn't. Where exactly did I say Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Iai or how does this relate to me in any way?

    If you really want to know who these folks are, talk to Mr. Matsuoka.

    -Russ

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rotterdam
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Well, the video title is "Shinkage ryu iaido (Yagyu Seigo ryu)," that's all. I just thought the videos were yours, Russ, sorry... But maybe there is someone else online who knows which group is performing the enbu here?
    Joris van Nispen

  9. #24
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris
    Well, the video title is "Shinkage ryu iaido (Yagyu Seigo ryu)," that's all. I just thought the videos were yours, Russ, sorry... But maybe there is someone else online who knows which group is performing the enbu here?
    They are mine. As you know, the title idoes not read "Yagyu Shinkage ryu iaido." The group in question calls what they do "Shinkage Ryu Iaijutsu" and "Yagyu Seigo Ryu Batto". Let me re-state that I never used, said or wrote the title : "Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Iaido."
    The kancho of this group is Mr. Kashima.

    -Russ

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rotterdam
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Thank you! I thought they weren't that secret :-(... By the way, I wasn't referring to Kashima Seiji sensei's group concerning the use of the Yagyu family name. But now I understand what you meant by "branching away." If you consider Kashima Kiyotaka sensei's son to be the main "Shinkage ryu" line under all his deshi (Akita sensei, Matsuoka sensei's teacher, among them), then, yes, everyone else has "branced away." Are you training with Kashima sensei yourself?

    (By the way: why are you so worried about my relationship with Matsuoka sensei? You really don't have to be... ;-)
    Joris van Nispen

  11. #26
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris
    Thank you! I thought they weren't that secret :-(
    Just because you don't know who they are doesn't make them a secret. You do drop names without really knowing who you're talking about, though. It also seems that you are fishing for information.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris
    By the way, I wasn't referring to Kashima Seiji sensei's group concerning the use of the Yagyu family name.
    So then what are you talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris
    But now I understand what you meant by "branching away."If you consider Kashima Kiyotaka sensei's son to be the main "Shinkage ryu" line under all his deshi (Akita sensei, Matsuoka sensei's teacher, among them), then, yes, everyone else has "branced away."
    Mr. Matsuoka started his own group.

    Are you training with Kashima sensei yourself?
    Nope I don't train with him. Why would you even remotely think that I did?

    (By the way: why are you so worried about my relationship with Matsuoka sensei? You really don't have to be... ;-)
    I have no idea what you are talking about.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Rotterdam
    Posts
    9
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Russ, I'll try to send you a private message to clear things out. I don't think anyone here is interested in this kind of stuff...
    Joris van Nispen

  13. #28
    Mekugi Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joris
    Russ, I'll try to send you a private message to clear things out. I don't think anyone here is interested in this kind of stuff...
    Neither am I. Don't bother, I really don't care.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nagoya, Japan
    Posts
    522
    Likes (received)
    31

    Default Shinkage-ryu clarification...

    I was just bopping through some older threads and came across this exchange:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
    To demonstrate further levels of diversity within an art like Shinkage-ryu, look also at the line of Shinkage-ryu taught within Owari kan-ryu and the "original" Shinkage-ryu (according to Kuroda Tetsuzan) of Komagawa kaishin-ryu. BTW, it is my understanding that "Kage-ryu" was succeeded by the Yagyu family, who re-named it "Shinkage-ryu" (and later "Yagyu shinkage-ryu") have been passing it down within through family transmission since. While Shinkage-ryu may have changed over the generations, it's my understanding that Yagyu shinkage-ryu is respected as the mainline tradition.
    Christopher Covington then offered the following clarification:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kendoguy9
    Dear Nathan, et al,

    There are and were many lines of Shinkage-ryu and they all seem to claim they are the "mainline." Shinkage-ryu is really the product of Kamiizumi. Kamiizumi studied Aisu Kage-ryu and later changed it to Shinkage-ryu. Two of his sons had lines of Shinkage-ryu, one just called Shinkage-ryu (I think?) and the other Kamiizumi-ryu. Both are dead ryu so who knows what they're like. They have a claim to the mainline because of family connection. Many people believe the Yagyu line to be the most complete, or the closest to the finished product of what Kamiizumi wanted to do with his art. Kamiizumi's nephew Hikida is said to be his strongest follower. The Okuyama line (Jikishinkage-ryu) is the oldest, as Okuyama studied with Kamiizumi before any of the other major line's founders. Anyway, just about all the lines when you ask them what art they study they'll say "Shinkage-ryu."
    I've just been reading Shoden Shinkage-ryu, the history of (Yagyu) Shinkage-ryu written by Yagyu Toshinaga, as well as some of the historical volumes by Imamura Yoshio, such as Shiryo Yagyu Shinkage-ryu, which is a collection of Sengoku and Edo period documents related to YSR, so I thought I'd offer further clarification. A lot of this stuff isn't in English, and what is is often slightly muddled or mistaken.

    As Christopher notes, Kamiizumi Hidetsuna, practitioner of Shinto-ryu, Nen-ryu, and Aisu Ikosai's Kage-ryu, developed Shinkage-ryu and named it thus because he felt his breakthrough came chiefly from Kage-ryu. This is attested is the Empi-no-Tachi scrolls that he wrote and gave to Yagyu Munetoshi (Sekishusai), and Marume Kurando.

    "Yagyu Shinkage-ryu" has never been the name of Shinkage-ryu as passed through the Yagyu family. In the densho written by Munetoshi, Munenori, and all of the Owari-line, it has always simply been "Shinkage-ryu Heiho". The first time the term Yagyu Shinkage-ryu was ever used by a Yagyu was when Yagyu Nobuharu-sensei used it in the title of a lecture, purely as a concession to popular nomenclature (and for the same reason, the official site uses "Yagyu Shinkage-ryu"). However, as far as practitioners are concerned, it's simply Shinkage-ryu.

    In many Owari-han documents, it's referred to as "Yagyu-ryu" by non-practitioners, likely as a way of distinguishing it from other "Shinkage-ryu" (of various kanji combinations) also being taught in the han. In early pre-war lectures, 20th soke Yagyu Toshinaga used the term to refer to concepts developed and handed down by the Yagyu family to distinguish them from "Shoden Shinkage-ryu Heiho" -- Shinkage-ryu as believed passed down by Kamiizumi.

    While Shinkage-ryu has passed down through the Yagyu family, the position of head of the school has been also passed down among certain Lords of Owari-han. The 4th soke in the lineage, for example, is Tokugawa Yoshinao, first lord of Owari-han. His son, Mitsutomo, was highly skilled in Shinkage-ryu and was later named 6th soke. The Owari Tokugawa family continued to study Shinkage-ryu with the Yagyu family up until the war.

    Interestingly, in a number of very early Hikita Kage-ryu documents, the lineage begins with Aisu Ikosai, rather than Kamiizumi as most Shinkage-ryu documents do. One might surmise that Hikita's training was primarily in Kage-ryu, before Kamiizumi made his changes and began calling it Shinkage-ryu.

    Shinkage-ryu "official" history in the Yagyu family (as detailed in Shoden Shinkage-ryu) is that Kamiizumi made Munetoshi his successor with the ichikoku-ichinin inkajo, and all other "Shinkage" and "Kage" ryus are off-shoots. In my personal opinion, though, historically it's probably more likely that Munetoshi was one of a number of high-level students, and there wasn't really the concept of a "mainline" or "soke" at the time for Munetoshi to inherit.
    Josh Reyer

    Swa sceal man don, žonne he ęt guše gengan ženceš longsumne lof, na ymb his lif cearaš. - The Beowulf Poet

  15. #30
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,160
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Josh Reyer View Post
    The Owari Tokugawa family continued to study Shinkage-ryu with the Yagyu family up until the war.
    For clarification, which war are you referring too?
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Tanemura Shoto - Daito-ryu Menkyo Kaiden?
    By Cantarone in forum Aikijujutsu
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 29th July 2007, 17:41
  2. Yagyu Shinkage Ryu and Ono-ha Itto Ryu
    By Cliff Judge in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 3rd May 2007, 22:24
  3. Jujutsu Koryu Styles
    By Lens in forum Jujutsu
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 9th August 2006, 01:11
  4. Practice of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu Kenjutsu: some questions
    By giovanni de cesare in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 20th May 2002, 13:23

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •