Kusanku

[woolston]

Dear Forum,

I am in the process of doing a little bit of historical 'digging about', simply to satisfy my own curiosity, and would like to find out more about Kusanku (AKA Kushanku, Kosokun, Kung Shang K'ung).

Could anyone help with details, i.e. dates of birth/death, etc., as I have searched in all my books and on the internet, but seem to have drawn a blank.

Thank you,

Steve Woolston
Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
ENGLAND

[kusanku]

Hi Steve.

The reason you are experiencing difficulty researching the life of Kusanku is that this is the nickname he was known by on Okinawa, noone I know really knows what his name was, what his style was, or anything much else about him except what was reported on Okinawa.

Kusanku means something like Diplomat Boy:-) because he was a junior grade official.

Had one heck of an influence on the development of karate though.

Incidentally, notice you are Matsubayashi ryu. If you do the Kusanku kata from this style, it is the Yara Kusanku which is supposed to be the original form of Kusanku developed by Sakugawa Toudi to memorialize the teachings of his master, the one called, Kusanku.

That's all the info I got on this one.

Take care,

[woolston]

Kusanku,

Just to follow up on your reply to my original query, you mention about 'Yara Kusanku'. I haven't started learning this kata yet, as I have only switched over to Matsubayashi Ryu a couple of years ago.

What I would like to ask, however, is that according to the George Alexander book 'Okinawa: Island of Karate', Kyan Chotoku learned this kata from Yara Peichin, rather than from Chatan Yara. This argument/confusion is also posed in the John Sells book 'Unante'.

I was wondering, what do you think? Is there any substance in this possibility?


Respectfully,

Steve Woolston
Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu
ENGLAND

[kusanku]

'Kyan Chotoku leanred this kata fromYara Peichin, rather than Yara Kusanku;..what think?'

Wouldn't matter, as I understand Nagamine learned Yara Kusanku not from Kyan, but by sending an advanced student of his( Kishaba perhaps?) to learn it from Hohan Soken who never trained with Kyan anyway.

Soken's kata would have come from Matsumura.

As to Yara Peichin/Yara no Chatan/Yomitan, I have no information on the confusion.

Nagamine did learn Passai and Chinto etc., from Kyan.

Hope that is of some help.

[JosephBlow]

Originally posted by kusanku
Wouldn't matter, as I understand Nagamine learned Yara Kusanku not from Kyan, but by sending an advanced student of his( Kishaba perhaps?) to learn it from Hohan Soken who never trained with Kyan anyway.

Looking at the kata only, the Kusanku done by Nagamine is different enough from Soken's that I can't think Nagamine's could have come from Soken. Though I do not know what the Matsubayashi line is on the origins of its Kusanku, I would be surprised if it is said to come from Soken. It does not have what are thought to be the key nuances that distinguish the Matsumura version from others.

Kishaba and other visitors did train with Soken Sensei, some extensively I'm told, but I understand that their objectives were not Kusanku. Others know more about that (including students of Kishaba), so I'll leave that discussion to them.

For comparison, Matsubayashi's Kusanku can be seen in Nagamine's book or downloaded as a 33MB AVI file at the following URL:

http://www.shorinryu.dk/film/18%20-%20Kusanku.mpg

Soken's version is seen most frequently on a bootleg B&W that is everywhere (though it's being done in his late years).

Also, I have been told that Soken and Kyan did actually hang out a bit but went separate ways early in the 20th century.

As to Chatan Yara vs. Pechin Yara, as I understand it (and I don't very much) "Pechin" is a title and not a name. Is it possible that Chatan Yara and Pechin Yara are the same person, resolving the "conflict"? I have no idea because I have not read about this man before, but thought I'd muddy the waters more.

FWIW,

Rich B.

[Sochin]

Incidentally, notice you are Matsubayashi ryu. If you do the Kusanku kata from this style, it is the Yara Kusanku which is supposed to be the
original form of Kusanku developed by Sakugawa Toudi to memorialize the teachings of his master, the one called, Kusanku.

What a nugget - do you remember where you got this from? I'd like to go mining for more!

[kusanku]

Sochin asks:What a nugget! Do you remember where you got this from? I'd like to go mining for more.

Hm. Check the Matsubayashi ryu World association website, I'm not sure, bt somewhere there is a site explaining how and from where Nagmine got the kata, I thibnk it was that he sent Kishaba to learn it from Soken.

A very respectable Matsumura Shorin ryu source whom I will not name on this forum told me privately that there is a connection that many are not aware of between nagamine's karate and Soken's.

However, be that as it may, four Okinawan systems do Chatan Yara No Kusanku: Matsumura Seito,Isshinryu, Matsubayashi ryu, and Shito Ryu all possess this kata.

There are of course differences in the way it is performed between each style , and this may reflect having learned from a different teacher, or the teacher doing it differently.

My source for having said it is the original is I believe Kyan or someone who trained with Bushi Matsumura saying that the only kata Kusanku that Matsumura taught or practiced was Yara Kusanku.Yara was a training partner of Kusanku apparently.

As for the rest, it is well know within Matubayashi ryu that magamine sent one of his senior sudents, I keep thinking Kishaba, to Soken to learn Kusanku Yara, to add to his system.

As for Soken and Kyan hanging out, don't know about it, but Nagamine didn't learn the kusanku from Kyan.

Kyan by the way taught a certain number of kata,I think eight, and his style is carried on by Joen Nakazato, and is called Shorinji-ryu.

Several of Kyan's forms also are taught by Nagamine, and some others as well.

Sorry I coudn't give more detailed information. As to the origins of Kusanku Sho and Kusanku Dai, Itosu created these.

The Shiho Kusanku was created by Mabuni Kenwa of Shito ryu.

That's about what I got on these.

[kusanku]

But wait- there's more!

Okay, got some back up here:

www.okinawan-karate.com_news_0900.htm

Also see www.shorinryu.com

For kusanku -kishaba-soken connection.

My source for this is also including a personal student of a student of Kishaba, and he is on this forum occasionally, and if he wishes to, can sign on here and back it upas well,but if he doesn't, I ll let him keep his privacy since he is a friend of mine.

As for Yara Kusanku being the original, I'll try to see what I can find, but apparently it Is the oldest form of Kusanku being practiced, also the earliest Passai is called Koryu Passai and is done by some Kobayashi people.A well as probably others.

MaKIN' ME WORK, HERE!

[Jussi Häkkinen]

Chatan Yara IS Yomitan Yara IS Yara PECHIN.

Let me explain a little: Chatan is a place in okinawa. They used to call people "Yara of Chatan" and such (actually, many karate masters have been known via their living places).
PECHIN (note the writing form, this is generally used. All on upper-case) is a title.. Same thing with other people. There are many PECHIN's in the karate history.

Yomitan Yara is (as far as I know) the real name of that master.

I also wish to greet the sister-stylist. I train Shorin-Ryu Seibukan Karate-Do, which comes straight form Chotoku Kyan. (Zenryo Shimabukuro had no other teachers than Kyan and is said to be the "closest disciple").

[kusanku]

Yes, Seibukan is a good style of the many good styles of Shorin ryu, closely connected also to Okinawan Kenpo Karatedo, as Shimabuku Zenryu was co-founder of that style, and Zenpo was also a teacher of it, in the US, in 1957 I believe.

I know this to be true as his( Zenryu's) signature with Shigeru Nakamura's, was on my teacher in Okinawan Kenpo's, dan certificate from Okinawa.

I have known others who practice the Shorinji-Ryu style. Good people without exception, it has been my experience.

Yes , I too think the Yara's are the same person.

I do like the Yara Kusanku, it is truly a magnificent form, rich in everything shorin ryu has to offer the serious practitioner.

And to master that kata, serious practice is indeed demanded.

It is like doing the whole art of Shorin ryu.

[Tobey]

Greetings all,

Kusanku has been a passion of mine for the past five years or so and I have a small 10 page paper on the history of Kusanku as best as I have assimilated from different sources. It is a little long to post here but if anyone wants to email me privately I would be more than willing to send it to them.

I am also not sure about the Yomitan/Chatan Yara connection. The dates don't line up for me. Then again the dates of Matsumora don't line up for me either!!


Thanks,

Tobey C. Reed
tobeyreed@yahoo.com