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Thread: Knife Defence

  1. #1
    Stephenjudoka Guest

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    In the UK the main threat to a Police Officers life is a knife or edged weapon.
    Although many criminals do carry firearms it is rare for them to be used against the Police.

    However a larger number of offenders carry knives and some are not afraid to use them.
    For many years I have looked at all types of techniques to deal with knives and I have done my best to take what I need from each system.

    I have learned to always look for the signs of a knife, to keep distance etc. What I would like to be better at or have better knowledge of is 'How to deal with a knife' from a supprise attack, when an officer has got to close and does not have time to pull a weapon from a belt.
    (Be it Baton or firearm).

    At this present time I am using a system based on techniques from CODA (STAB) This system advocates switching off the delivery system (Ie: Striking the offender to knock them out).
    I found the system very easy to teach to other officers and they seem to have picked it up well.

    I was wondering if anyone out there knows of other systems I might be able to look at. It must be easy to kearn, easy to teach and easy to put into practice.

    Another officer thanked me the other day. He stated he was confronted my a knifeman and he instinctively struck him with a chin jab using a palm heel strike.
    It knocked the offender out cold.

    I would like to add to my knowledge and then pass it onto my fellow officers in the UK

    Thanking you in anticipation

    Stephen Sweetlove

  2. #2
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    Thumbs up !

    "This system advocates switching off the delivery system (Ie: Striking the offender to knock them out)."

    or incapcitating their breathing or eyesight (throat and eyes)...

    http://americancombatives.com , John Kary's American Combatives has a good set of tapes.
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  3. #3
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    Default Knife Defense

    Sounds as if your system is effective. The biggest single problem I see in most knife defense systems, especially Aikido, is the lack of impact technique.

    The system we use at Defensive Tactics Options is very simple. We use a "dive entry" (derived from Silat) in which we move directly at the subject's center with our hands in front of us functioning like the prow of a ship. Any incoming strike is picked up by the hands and deflected off to one side or the other. At that point we trap the knife hand and deliver as much impact technique (head butts, knees, elbows, etc) as is required to sufficiently tenderize the subject allowing for a safe disarm.

    If there is more than one attacker, the impact techniques will focus heavily on the eyes and throat in order to incapacitate that subject on the first or second hit allowing movement to the next subject. Most of the practically oriented systems seem to be fairly similar. The entry seems to be the place at which the most divergence takes place.

    Peyton Quinn has a very good system that is simple and effective (he's survived at least a couple of attempts). Check out his website for information about the training.http://www.rmcat.com/
    He used to sell a video that outlined the system. it was simple and could easily be taught.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  4. #4
    Stephenjudoka Guest

    Default

    Sochin,

    I believe the CODA system is based on the same ideas as the AC.
    The techniques look the same and I know some of the Instructors from CODA have trained with Mr Kary.
    Thanks for showing me the site.
    I will contact the English instructor Nick Collins (Who I happen to know but did not realise he was an instructor in the system. I know him from Judo).

    Unfortunately some officers in the UK do not take the knife very seriously until it is to late.
    I often hear "It is only a knife".
    Very few officers wear knife resistant body armour although it is provided.

    Since the training I have been giving to my officers the awareness has increased and a knife is taken very seriously.

    In the past we have had several officers attacked with knives and one group attacked with a Samuri sword.

    One officer was stabbed in the area of his heart but survived because he had his pocket book in his shirt pocket.
    Another officer was stabbed in the groin and was lucky not to have bled to death. However he does have a very noticeable limp and can only work indoors.
    Remember we do not carry firearms.

    Any help I can get is very welcomed.

    Stephen Sweetlove
    Last edited by Stephenjudoka; 26th April 2001 at 11:27.

  5. #5
    Stephenjudoka Guest

    Default

    George,

    Thanks for your help. I agree with you most systems are very similar and it is the entry that is different.
    That is what I am looking for - the best way to block and enter.

    I have found trapping very difficult when the offender is delivering mutiple strikes with the knife.

    In an exercise I use, I get an officer to try to block and trap the knife arm. (The offender is armed with a felt tipped pen)When the exercise is over we check the officer for pen marks. There are many slashing marks and usually several very good fatal stabs.

    When I re-run the exercise at the end of the lesson using the technique of switching off the delivery system the success rate is a lot higher (The knifeman starts to defend themselves against the blows and most forget all about the knife) however this is not foolproof and many officers still get pen marks on them - Not so many fatal blows this time.

    If I could find a way of blocking or passing the knife to deliver the blows then I would be very happy.

    Stephen Sweetlove
    Last edited by Stephenjudoka; 26th April 2001 at 11:29.

  6. #6
    Jake Steinmann Guest

    Default

    Tony Blauer has some good material on dealing with the knife, again, with an emphasis on taking
    out the delivery system (i.e. the bad guy).

    www.tonyblauer.com

    Check it out.

  7. #7
    simon james Guest

    Default

    Hi Stephen,
    I would strongly suggest that you look at the system Dennis Martin teaches here in the UK.
    It is very simple. Easy to learn, use and teach.
    Most importantly, it is usable under stress and in a real environment.
    I have used it twice in real situations, with minimal injury, so I have no hesitation in recommending the training.
    At the very least I think you would find something there to add to your current system.
    Dennis can be reached at RealityCheckUK@hotmail.com for information on attending/organising courses.

    Good luck with your training,

    Simon James.

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    Default "It is only a knife"

    Unfortunately some officers in the UK do not take the knife very seriously until it is to late.
    I often hear "It is only a knife".
    Very few officers wear knife resistant body armour although it is provided.

    **********

    My brother-in-law is a Dr. for a swat team in the Frisco bay area. They are required to watch the vido (of course I forget the name! )which is famous for the 21 foot rule. He's promised to get it to me a number of times but hasn't yet - they take knives very seriously.

    Do you have the option of carrying a baton of some sort, perhaps a telescoping type? A few weeks training in elementary Filipino arts and you'll be ready to face a knife safely IF you have time to get it out!
    The baton can be (almost) as fast as the knife and yet has the reach advantage, a good choice of tool to face a knife if you don't have a firearm.
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  9. #9
    Jake Steinmann Guest

    Default

    Ted,
    I believe the video you're thinking of is "Surviving Edged Weapons" by Calibre Press.
    I've yet to see it (I think it's only available to LEO's), but if I recall right, it shows (amoung other things) Dan
    Inosanto and several other famous FMA guyshelping some officers demonstrate why a knife is a very
    dangerous thing.
    www.calibrepress.com is the URL

  10. #10
    Stephenjudoka Guest

    Default

    Jake, Simon and Sochin,

    Thanks for your help. I will follow up your advice.

    I have the video Surviving edged weapons and I show it to all my recruits. ( I also have an English Police version)

    I would like to thank everbody who has replied to me and I promise you I will follow up all the information I have been given.

    Sochin I/we do carry a baton - 26inch ASP. As you say very effective but hard to draw if you are caught off gaurd.

    Stephen Sweetlove

  11. #11
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    Default Clarify

    Originally posted by Stephenjudoka
    George,

    Thanks for your help. I agree with you most systems are very similar and it is the entry that is different.
    That is what I am looking for - the best way to block and enter.

    I have found trapping very difficult when the offender is delivering mutiple strikes with the knife.

    In an exercise I use, I get an officer to try to block and trap the knife arm. (The offender is armed with a felt tipped pen)When the exercise is over we check the officer for pen marks. There are many slashing marks and usually several very good fatal stabs.

    When I re-run the exercise at the end of the lesson using the technique of switching off the delivery system the success rate is a lot higher (The knifeman starts to defend themselves against the blows and most forget all about the knife) however this is not foolproof and many officers still get pen marks on them - Not so many fatal blows this time.

    If I could find a way of blocking or passing the knife to deliver the blows then I would be very happy.

    Stephen Sweetlove
    I just want to clarify what I said. Whereas trapping of the knife arm is usually a by-product of the "dive entry" we use, the main focus is on delivering impact technique on the first "beat" of the movement. It is very difficult for the attacker to deliver more than one cut or stab and normally they are not at targets considered terminal.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  12. #12
    TIM BURTON Guest

    Talking

    Leicester Mercury 21/4/01, sixth largest newspaper in UK, reported a serious assault where a knife was used in a nightclub. I sought out the officer in the case these are the facts.
    0130am Saturday/Sunday, popular club, frequented by all ages, not known for its trouble. If you want a night out this is where you go. Experienced door staff, who have demonstrated their abilities to keep order time and time again. There is no conflict between the door staff and police.
    Situation develops between a man and woman, she receives abuse from a stranger, until another man (1), unconnected, steps in to calm situation down. Abusive male draws blade and holds it in a threatening manner. Doorman (2) sees the confrontation but not the blade and moves in to stop it calling on other members of his team to help. Abusive male pushes him away and is dragged to the doors by other door staff (3) and ejected. Situation is resolved and hysterical woman is calmed down. Male (1) realises that he is having trouble moving his right arm, closer examination shows it is cut deep to the bone across the upper forearm. Result surgery and permanent loss of movement in middle and ring finger.
    Doorman (2) on seeing injury of (1) examines “wetness”, on his chest attributed to sweating. He finds puncture wound from a stab and discovers his breathlessness is not from exertion but a punctured lung. Result hospitalisation. Doorman (3) aroused to the injuries of the other two, examines his dead leg to find a wound on inside of upper leg with arterial bleeding (very serious). Resulting in major surgery and permanent damage to the leg. The knife man who was ejected from premises disappeared into the night unidentified.
    On interview male (1) only saw blade after wound had been inflicted and did not feel it until loss of movement drew his attention to it. Male (2) never saw a blade and thought he had been punched, he only discovered his wound after the event. Male (3) received a life threatening wound to his femoral artery that again was not recognised as such in the disturbance, he also did not see a blade.
    In my opinion, unless you treat every situation as an armed threat, you do not have much of a chance against a blade. Once a blade is recognised, yes we can make a difference to our chances of survival, the presence of “defence wounds” on victims hands are an indication of this. If a wound is not at once fatal or incapacitating, then we can fight back and raise our chances of survival.
    However, in my humble opinion, if someone has a knife and the serious intent to use it, you will be cut without realising it. They are not going to reveal their upper hand, just as you are not going to reveal your martial skills.
    The best knife defence is to assume that all situations involve a weapon and act accordingly. Tell them straight away that you think they have a knife and will be treating them as such unless they can prove otherwise.

  13. #13
    Derek McDonald Guest

    Lightbulb I'm Interested in your personal experience

    The last post really got me thinking. Over the years I have seen instructors teach a differing variety of strategies and tactics for knife defense--from staying outside, to risking a few cuts to close and control, or close and strike. I would appreciate reading about any personal or second-hand experiences that would shed more light on the subject.

    Personally, I have only had to deal with the knife once--as a child I was confronted in a playground by a knife-wielding teenager, I threw a piece of concrete reinforcement (rebar), which struck the villain across both knees causing him to fall to the ground. A fact I only noticed after I had stopped running in the opposite direction.

    The lesson for me: Discretion is the better part of valor, but it helps if you have a hefty piece of metal.

    I have an acquaintance who was stabbed in the heart because he successfully blocked a robber's punch in low-light conditions, but failed to notice that the punch was actually a knife attack (he lived but was not himself for sometime).

    The lesson for me: Expect the unexpected.

    One of my former students--who was 50 years old at the time--was accosted at an ATM machine by two knife-wielding thugs. He turned from the machine, saw the knife presented by the first thug in line, and before the thug had a chance to demand his money, he reacted--completely out of instinct--by grabbing the wrist that held the knife and twisting hard as he rotated and dropped into a horse stance. After the screaming thug's arm broke in two places my student counted coup by knocking him out with a punch to the face. He then executed a hop-in side kick to the second thug--who was temporarily frozen by the unexpected turn-of-events--and violently dislocated his knee. Result: Two thugs crying for help and one student who will check the bushes before making any late-night cash withdrawals.

    The lesson for me: A simple technique practiced a thousand times may be more useful than a more sophisticated technique that has not yet become automatic (At the time of this incident I was teaching Tang Soo Do, a predominately punch and kick-based art, I am not suggesting that a more sophisticated (from my perspective) operating system, such as Aiki-Jujutsu, would not be as effective. I am only making the observation that--regardless of your methods--the ability to react automatically is most important.

    One of my past instructors recounted that--as a military policeman stationed in a foreign port in the late 50's--he had to disarm knife wielding drunks on a regular basis (at least 30 times by his telling). His fail-safe technique was either a step-in or jump-in side kick to the solar plexus, followed by a sound drubbing about the head and shoulders with a nightstick.

    The lesson for me: Go with what you know and carry a big stick

    Another acquaintance was attacked by three thugs as he and his girlfriend sat talking--at dusk--in his car which was parked in a shopping mall. The bad guys had coasted a car behind them to prevent escape, and as one assailant prevented my friend from opening his door, the other smashed his girlfriends window in and began to beat her savagely. Because of his seated position, my friend--in spite of years of martial arts training--was effectively helpless. Luckily, he had just returned from a knife-defense class and was able grab his knife, whereupon he leaned over and delivered one stab to the attacker who seemed bent on killing his girlfriend. The knife penetrated at the hollow between clavicle and neck, causing the attacker to cease hostilities, and within a few minutes, to die. My friend's action saved his and his girlfriend's lives. Years later he expressed that the incident had taken--and continued to take--a heavy and persistent emotional toll on both he and his girlfriend.

    The lesson for me: You never know when it will happen. Train hard and train for the worst. (I do not tell this story lightly, and I hope if my friend reads this he will understand that his story is told so that others may prevail in the face of evil.)

    My general take on knife-defense is this: chaos will be the order of the day--and although (a) technique is better than no technique--if you are serious about prevailing, you will train for dynamically unfolding situations versus static engagements. I also remember what Dad told me, "If you go to a knife fight, bring a pistol".

    Respectfully,
    Derek McDonald
    Last edited by Derek McDonald; 11th May 2001 at 23:39.

  14. #14
    cu_ulad Guest

    Thumbs up knife training

    Professor Rick Hernandez teaches the <a href="http://www.tacsafe.com">TACSAFE</a> system (Tactical Awareness and Control Strategies Against Firearms and Edged weapons), which has recently garnered acceptance from Quantico, VA for the FBI SWAT teams. It covers Knives, defence against knives, and many other areas of CQC.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: "It is only a knife"

    Originally posted by Sochin
    My brother-in-law is a Dr. for a swat team in the Frisco bay area. They are required to watch the vido (of course I forget the name! )which is famous for the 21 foot rule. He's promised to get it to me a number of times but hasn't yet - they take knives very seriously.

    Do you have the option of carrying a baton of some sort, perhaps a telescoping type? A few weeks training in elementary Filipino arts and you'll be ready to face a knife safely IF you have time to get it out!
    The baton can be (almost) as fast as the knife and yet has the reach advantage, a good choice of tool to face a knife if you don't have a firearm.
    The problem here is two fold.

    First, if you get a chance to see the Surviving Edged Weapons video you should do so. Interviews with quite a number of officers that survived attacks with edged weapons showed that not a single one of them knew he was in an edged weapons situation until after he was stabbed, usually several times.
    Almost none of the survivors who did fight off the attack did so using any of the wepons they possessed. it was straight empty hand impact technique that saved them.

    In terms of Use of Force for Law Enforcement using a baton against an aggressor with a knife is an inapproprite matchup. There is no Defensive Tactics training institute in the country that would train officers to match a stick against a knife. (Unless you just happened to be using your impact weapon when the knife appeared). The fact that we might be able to do so ourselves or know people who could is beside the point. An officer is allowed to do whatever he needs to to go home safely at the end of the day. They don't get paid enough to take the risk of meeting knives with sticks. If you could get your stick out in time you could get your gun out and that is what is taught around the country (obviously the UK and Japan are different).

    This really is the same as non-trained people suggesting that officers "shoot to wound". There is not a single firearms teacher or agency with whom I am familiar that teaches an officer to "shoot to wound". You shoot to END THE THREAT. The fastest and most reliable way to do that is to put the shots on center mass. Anything else puts the safety of the officer and other citizens at risk. This gets into the realm of what Kit was talking about when he mentioned being wary of martial arts epeople who offer to teach police techniques. They are often completely unaware of the Use of Force constraints that govern law enforcement personel and often make technical suggestions that are unrealistic for the law enforcement environment.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

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