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Thread: Yoshida Kotaro & Yoshida Kenji (Yanagi-ryu)

  1. #61
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    Bruce,
    Dont know if he helped with the 7 Samurai, but Mifunes teacher was Sugino Yoshio ,kenjutsu (TSKSR).
    Hope that helps.
    Andrew Prochnow

  2. #62
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Andy ya beat me to it

    Kotaro Yoshida was the father of Yoshida Kenji; who taught Don Angier
    He was also the guy who introduced Ueshiba to Takeda (he had studied Daito ryu for years with Horikawa Taiso)
    He is also the guy who taught tessen to Kondo.
    It is assummed he was very well versed in a "Yanagi"ryu. I think "the boys" keep trying to trace that connection down and tighten it up through a paperwork trail and have gotten frustrated.

    The wispy bearded guy who taught Mifune sword?
    That is indeed Sugino from TSKSR.
    Sugino? He practiced up until his mid nineties. A colorful character who was much admired in Budo circles. He was a judoka then did some Aikido. He made some interesting observations of Takeda when he saw him show up uninvited to a Budo demo at the Budokan. He said Takeda chastized the guys for not practicing real Budo and he took on a bunch of large Judoka and pinned them all while being insulting of their efforts.
    He ackowledged that
    a. It was was of the finest displays of martal prowess he had ever seen
    and
    b. It was the rudest thing he had ever seen a Budoka do.
    He then went to study with Ueshiba...

    Anyway. It was published as an interview with Stanley Pranin.
    Buy his books two books
    One on Aikido masters
    One on Daito ryu masters.
    then read
    Don Draegers three books on Japanese arts
    Diane and Meik Skoss's three bookson Koryu
    Ellis Amdur's two books on the Japanese arts
    All of the above should be required reading for Budoka to get a good basic "whos who and whats what" in the Japanese arts.
    Even with the occasional error and the editorial opinion it is good basic education and really a delightful read. Alot of it is truly funny while being thought provoking and informative.

    Together they have interviews with many differrent people which lets the reader draw their own conclusions.
    Stan is trained in how to investigate and ask questions.
    The Skosses offered fellow koryu people a chance to speak their own minds.
    Ellis is pithy, abrupt, Direct and then waxes philosophically. He also has a nack for drawing the reader in -even to topics one would normally not be interested in.
    Great reads all.......

    cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 14th March 2004 at 17:48.

  3. #63
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    Lightbulb

    Many thanks to you both for the help.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  4. #64
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    Just a couple things about Yoshida Kotaro…

    He began studying Daito ryu with Takeda just before he introduced Ueshiba to him (maybe even in the same year) and a year later than Horikawa Kodo, Kodo was senior to them both. He didn’t actually study with Horikawa Taiso, though Kodo (his son) and Yoshida were friends and in all likelihood trained together on occasion. Horikawa Kodo had begun learning Daito ryu with his father prior to meeting Takeda.

    Yoshida was Kondo Katsuyuki’s second Daito ryu teacher. Just before he passed away Kondo’s first teacher, Hosono Tsunejiro, told him he should study with Yoshida. Hosono had been a student of Yoshida and Takeda.

    Yoshida was said to have been quite a talented and famous martial artist and had supposedly achieved high level in several arts. Yanagi ryu was his family’s system and while it had it’s own extensive curriculum in all probability aspects of Daito ryu were incorporated in.

    We have tried through several different resources to find out more about Yoshida and his family, but due to his involvement in several right-wing groups during the war and after we have run into many “roadblocks”. Suffice it to say it has been suggested that we probably shouldn’t be asking.

    Oh, and he did have a wispy beard and kinda looked like Sugino now that you mention it.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  5. #65
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Hey Rich

    By the way I did send that guy your way

    A couple of disjointed historical factoids-really for discussion purposes.

    I have it that Kondo basicially just learned tessen from Yoshida-this from his own lips-and that he only studied with him for 2 years. In fact he even down played his training with him in association to any sort of deep Daito ryu study.
    He is very straight up and direct about his training and he said it was tessen and wrist work only. I think he said he got a type of Inka but again I specifically remember him downplaying that. The boys can ask him this year if they are so inclined.

    History


    Sagawa states that his dad studied with Takeda and recieved the teaching chop in 1914-he goes on to say that Yoshida trained along with his dad.
    Mrs Horikawa tells Stan that Taiso met Takeda in 1913 and began training-and that Yoshida was present to introduce Ueshiba in the early winter (feb I think) of 1915

    In fact If I am not mistaken Taiso taught Kodo kind of illegally behind Takedas back and only then did Takeda sort of say "OK teach the kid and then I'll teach him."
    So that does indeed place Yoshida as senior to Kodo-and _perhaps_ senior to Taiso.
    I can't even get to my books -anyone care to chime in?

    cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 14th March 2004 at 19:30.

  6. #66
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    Yeah, 2 years is not much. From what he stated in his interview Kondo didn’t just learn tessen, he said they (he and Tomabechi Yoshimi) paid by technique and mentions learning kotegaeshi. He told Don that some of the tessen Yoshida did and what he learned in Daito ryu was different. That was how he recognized Yoshida’s teachings in what Don was doing. He handed Don the tessen he had gotten from Yoshida to practice with and Don began doing movements with it. Kondo told Don that those were the same things that Yoshida would do, but that they were not part of Daito ryu.

    Sagawa’s father got the license in ’14 but Yoshida hadn’t been training with him. He stated in his interview that Yoshida and Ueshiba both started after his father. Horikawa Taiso started ’13, and Kodo in ’14. And Taiso was teaching Kodo on the side, but eventually got Takeda’s ok on it. Kodo actually studied with his father for 7 years before becoming a direct student of Takeda, he only studied with Takeda for 3 years.

    It is my understanding from the interviews and talking with Stan that Yoshida didn’t start with Takeda until ’14… or at least he doesn’t show up in any of the ledgers before that. That’s not to say these guys didn’t all train together at different times… they were all already experienced martial artists and it seems that Hokkaido, Yubestu and Engaru in particular, were quite the hotbed for Daito ryu in those days.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  7. #67
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    Dear Richard:

    Speaking of Right-wing societies, there seem to be infrequent but repeated suggestions of a relationship between some JMA practitioners and the AMUR RIVER SOCIETY aka BLACK DRAGON SOCIETY. Some of these aspersions reach Ueyshiba and Doshin So. Have you found anything to this? I was also recently shocked by a TV program on the Japanese C-B program in Manchuria. Its seems like people report being in Manchuria during the war and the duty seems often characterized as hum-drum/ nothing special. Now I wonder if there is a resource that sheds a bit more light on this portion of the Second WW. I remember how stunned I was to find out the incredible battles that were fought in Manchuria during the Russo-Japanese War. Thoughts?

    Best ishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  8. #68
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    I have found there to be a great deal of connections between the JMA community and various organizations during the war... If you think about it it's really a part of their history, it's always been that way. Yoshida was involved in the groups you mentioned and others, many martial artists back then were... you'd be suprised. And they were active in several different countries.

    You could say that some of these groups had offspring that are active to this day.
    Richard Elias
    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
    Yanagi Ryu

  9. #69
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    Bruce --

    Unit 731 is what you're looking for in the books and websites.

    Also read up on the Soviet invasion of Manchuria in August 1945. For my money, this, rather than the atomic bombs, is what made the Japanese beg for surrender. Uncle Joe rolled up the entire Kwantung Army in less than a week, so, logically the alternative to surrendering to the Americans in September was being overrun by the Soviets by December.

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    Dear Joe and Richard:

    I think you are both hitting the point that I wanted to make, and I would take it a step farther.

    In Korean traditions Hwang Kee (Tang Soo Do) is said to have been posted to the "railroad" in Manchuria and trained in Chinese arts while there. In like manner other personalities are said to have had equivalent experiences. What is missing for me is the actual nature of the Manchurian campaigns. I don't think folks went to Manchuria and just sat around studying MA all day. Joes' reference to Unit 731 shows that there were some pretty serious things happening in that theatre but there is not much in the way of information. Maybe someone needs to write a book and call it "Japanese Martial Arts -- The Manchurian Years". Whatcha think?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  11. #71
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    Much of what was done by the Japanese in Manchuria is an embarrasment to modern Japanese (it was also the stuff of war crime convictions). The problem with any such effort is that it digs into a period of time that most Japanese are rather squishy about. Even if some signifigant budo was going on, it is tainted by the terrible acts surrounding the Chinese occupation. Those who know probably won't talk, and those inquiring will probably be given the cold shoulder. Let's just say that tatami wasn't the tameshigiri material of choice for many "Budo" practitioners during the occupation. They certainly weren't teaching the local populace and Japan's national arrogance would most likely have made it impossible to conceive of learning from a local (Chinese) teacher.
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
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  12. #72
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    Thanks, Christian:

    I know what you mean. The Koreans are VERY touchy about the Japanese Occupation to a great degree because of all the collaboration that went on. UNDER THE BLACK UMBRELLA was a banned book in Korea for many years and there are an embarrassing number of high political officials who have retained their influential positions despite their engagement with the Japanese during the war. What I was thinking of was not so much working to dish dirt, but rather to locate resources that would speak to the Manchurian experience as it might have impacted JMA (or KMA). For instance, I remember that there was some anecdotal evidence about Military sword (Toyama-ryu) being practiced in Manchuria and Nakamura may have actually taught there for a while. Ueyshiba is rumored (off and on) to have dabbled in Chinese arts there. All the same there doesn't seem to be much to draw on to get a real feel for what the atmosphere may have been like. By way of example, I am currently laboring through ORIGINS OF THE BOXER REBELLION by Esherick (ISBN 0 520 06459 3). Though a bit ponderous, the manner in which the author systematically examines each social and economic factor winds up giving me a great picture of what was going on in the second half of the 19th century. You could probably boil the entire book into a single chapter except that the research is so painfully thorough. I think its a great read. Now I wouldn't mind finding something comparable regarding the Manchurian experience. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

  13. #73
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    Although it had just 701 miles of track, the South Manchuria Railway was an enormous corporation, and as such, a decent colonial analogy would be the British East India Company.

    The SMR records are available in microfilm all over the US, but of course you would need to read bureaucratic prewar Japanese to use them. Therefore, I'd recommend starting instead with one of the academic texts, such as this: http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog/MATMAK.html

    or

    Life along the South Manchurian Railway : the memoirs of It¯o Takeo / translated with an introduction by Joshua A. Fogel
    Published Armonk, N.Y. : M.E. Sharpe, c1988 . Prof. Fogel is at UC Santa Barbara, and has written extensively on travel in pre-WWII Asia. See http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/...sjs/fogel.html

    or the Stanford East Asia Library collection, limned at

    http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/asrg/japan_1.htm

    Also look at railfan sites, such as http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/steam/trains/nkorea04.htm .

    There is a surprising amount in English, though, starting with EJ Harrison's "Peace or War East of Baikal," and then culminating in the propaganda brochures published by the government. For some background on these brochures, see http://www.jrtr.net/jrtr15/f22_nak.html .

    ***

    The Soviet campaign in Manchuria in 1945 is described at http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...t/1986/RMF.htm .

    For the 1938/1939 war, see http://zhukov.mitsi.com/Russo.htm . For more detail, note that Alvin Coox wrote a book that tells the Japanese side; it's called Nomohon. In Russian, look for material on Khalkin-Gol. A fellow at Indiana did his master's on the battles, but I doubt he'd worry much about some obscure Korean railwayman. http://www.indiana.edu/~ceus/ma%20de...in%20ceus2.htm

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    Joe, let me state for the record that you are in fact THE MAN. Who needs Britanica...
    Christian Moses
    **Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
    Student of:
    Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
    Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)

  15. #75
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    Dear Joe:

    What a great start!! Many thanks. I'll let you know which of these leads pans out the best for me. Thanks again.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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