Menkyo Kaiden & Koryu Densho

[ghp]

Hi Nathan,

"Keisho Denju". I don't know the kanji used for this, but on a guess I would say that "Keisho" means either "title of honor" or "inheritance/succession"

Keisho is the scroll of succession and it can be seen in the book, Katsujin Ken Battodo. Nakamura Ryu, although only 50 years old, uses the koryu license system as itemized below [modern equavalents in brackets] :

1 - Shoden [1-2 dan]
2 - Chuden [3-4 dan]
3 - Okuden [5-6 dan]
4 - Okuden Menkyo [7-8 dan]
5 - Menkyo Kaiden [9-10 dan]

Additionally, there is the "Densho" -- license of transmission. I don't know how this system actually works; I have the Densho but am ranked only at okuden level.

Regards,
Guy

[Nathan Scott]

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[ghp]

Hello Nathan,

Nidai Soke is his daughter, Tomoko Arai. She is not a budo praticioner, but was named by sensei (recorded on video tape) before he passed away. I just met with her last month when I visited sensei's grave.

There are those who know how the system works, so no worry in that regard.

Regards,
Guy

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[DDATFUS]

In other words, when a new headmaster is designated, a special ceremony is conducted. But when densho, or a Menkyo Kaiden is issued, the recipient historically kept the issuance of it in-house until well after the teacher's death. It can be assumed that, aside from humility, keeping the issuance of densho/ranks private reduces the amount the teacher has to deal with jealousy and bickering from among their students.

That's a very interesting quote, Nathan, especially in the context of some of the Daito Ryu discussions going on today. I'd just like to note that I suspect that things might have been a bit different in schools that traditionally practiced a shihan system (Araki Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu come to mind) as opposed to those that have a soke system (like Daito Ryu or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu). In the latter, the quote you give above probably applies. In the former, however, a menkyo kaiden was expected to go set up shop elsewhere and teach-- that probably made keeping who had menkyo kaiden quiet rather a moot point.

[Tengu]

That's a very interesting quote, Nathan, especially in the context of some of the Daito Ryu discussions going on today. I'd just like to note that I suspect that things might have been a bit different in schools that traditionally practiced a shihan system (Araki Ryu and Jikishinkage Ryu come to mind) as opposed to those that have a soke system (like Daito Ryu or Yagyu Shinkage Ryu). In the latter, the quote you give above probably applies. In the former, however, a menkyo kaiden was expected to go set up shop elsewhere and teach-- that probably made keeping who had menkyo kaiden quiet rather a moot point.

I think Shihan and Soke do not exclude each other. Tenshinsho Katori Shinto Ryu have a Soke And a Shihan. I think even a Shihanke.

Now Expanding the list:

- Suiō-ryū Iai Kenpō (水鷗流 居合 剣法)

1 - Shoden
2 - Chuden
3 - Okuden
4 - Sho Mokuroku
5 - Chu Mokuroku
6 - Dai Mokuroku
7 - So Menkyo
8 - Inka

Source: Paper by Katsuse Yoshimitsu Soke
Found in:http://www.suioryu-usa.org/bucreates.html

Regards

[DDATFUS]

I think Shihan and Soke do not exclude each other.

That's true. Just to clarify, I'm in the habit (I think I picked it up from some folks at my dojo) of referring to a koryu that has a single main line of transmission as a soke system, and a koryu that has many branches in each generation as a shihan system. These seem to be the two major categories, but those are probably very imprecise terms, and the reality is always more complicated; Yagyu Shinkage Ryu was a soke-type system, but there were at least two major lines, and the soke three generations back had at least three students besides his son who operated their own lines. Katori Shinto Ryu, as you pointed out, have one soke... but they have this other guy who is the shihan, because the soke has health problems, I think... and then there might be another line or two at some point that were authorized to teach, possibly... it's all a headache when you try to apply hard rules to koryu succession.

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Tengu]

As I am talking about Tenshinsho Katori Shinto Ryu, anyone knows the names and stuff of the diplomas of the ryu?
In the book "The Way of the Warrior: The Paradox of the Martial Arts" says that it have 3 graduations and only
and that one can only accept challenges when archive menkyo
Looks a bit dark to me.
anyone have a light?

regards

-B. Trece

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Tengu]

Nathan

I am very grateful for that info
this explains a lot for me that had only read draeguer books mostly on TSKSR
and about your sources I would ask you to share with us the sources of your findings
if it not lead to people to make more frauds

regards
and Good Luck (not very japanese but it is always good)
tsk tsk

-B.Trece

[jfkcotter]

me that had only read draeguer books

What's a 'draeguer' book?

[Dan Harden]

What's a 'draeguer' book?

Don Draeger (desceased) is the premier westerner who opened up many Koryu to westerners. He was a legend both in skill and knowledge of the Japanese Martial arts many of which he mastered as well as research into other cultrues martial arts. In Japan; from Tenshinsho-Den Katori Shinto Ryu, to Shinto Muso ryu to Aikido to Judo, onto Tai chi, then to Philipino arts-all under master level teachers (mostly who themselves were living legends) he was one of the rare few who could walk the path of classical kata and then get down and dirty.
His large house in Japan was a mecca to westerners-during their training. Many of them who went on to become legendary teachers and authors. It is no exageration to say that we all owe him a debt in many different respects. He was also the developer and founder of Hoplology-the study of indigenous Budo in their cultural context and how they relate
books
http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/draeger.html
bio
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donn_F._Draeger

http://koryu.master.com/texis/master...s=SS&q=Draeger

The new Katori book
http://www.koryu.com/bookstore/katori-shinto-ryu.html

Cheers
Dan

[Fred27]

What's a 'draeguer' book?

I think Cotter was just being sarcastic over Tengu's misspelling of Donn Draeger's name.
After all, Cotter was the one who uploaded this clip:
Uchida Ryu Tanjojutsu - Donn F. Draeger

[Tengu]

I think Cotter was just being sarcastic over Tengu's misspelling of Donn Draeger's name.

Really my fault

Sometimes I do this misspelling because of how the name sounds in my language
but it is still wrong
Draeger is a great inspiration for me.
Dan has inserted useful info of bibliograph
I would like to add this address because have bibliograph of some of his lectures
http://www.hoplology.com/

I was forgetting to say that my English is crappy

Boa sorte

-B.Trece