Daito-ryu Aikibudo (Alain Floquet)

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Floquet and his aikibudo organization in France has been the subject of much controversy.

Following is a listing of statements, discussions and resources regarding the history and ligitimacy of Mr. Floquet's art and claims:



<li><font size=2>Alain Floquet's bio (his home page):

ALAIN FLOQUET
Founder of Aïkibudo
dan 8th
Shibucho of katori Shintô Ryu
Shibucho and Kyoju Dairi of Daïto Ryu Aïkijujutsu

"Today, Maître Floquet is 8e dan Kyoshi Aïkibudo, 7e dan Katori Shinto Ryu, 5e dan Iaï Jutsu Yoseikan Shinto Ryu, Kyoju Daïri de Daïto Ryu Aïki Jujutsu (awarded by the Soke Takeda Munemitsu). He is the direct student of Maître Minoru Mochizuki for the Aikido Yoseikan, of Maître Yoshio Sugino for the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintô Ryu, and of Maître Tokimune Takeda for the Daito Ryu Aïki Jujutsu."

http://www.aikibudo.com/akbd/akbdgb/...et/floquet.htm


<li><font size=2>Letter from Alain Floquet (his home page):

"The Aïkibudo is based on the program Aïkido-jujutsu of the Yoseikan (Yoseikan Shintô Ryu), that I have taken up, completed, developed."

"To insure its rooting in the Japanese martial tradition and preserve its originality, It is flanked with two historically well-known and acknowledged arts : the KATORI SHINTO RYU and the DAITO RYU AIKIJUJUTSU, both preserved as I have received them, the first one from Master Sugino Yoshio, and the second from lamented Soké Takeda Tokimune."

http://www.aikibudo.com/akbd/akbdgb/afloquet/lemot.htm



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<li><font size=2>Aikido Journal BBS Discussion</font>
<font size=1>A discussion including comments by Mr. Stanley Pranin occured on the Aikido Journal BBS in May, 2000:</font>

<font size=2>"The second Munemitsu Takeda is a much younger man of around 50 who is a distant descendent of Sokaku (I think a great grandson) by his first wife. He has visited France several times and is close to Floquet Sensei. When I saw his demonstrate about 10 years ago in Tokyo he simply had a dan ranking and ran a dojo in Fukushima Prefecture."

http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000004.html



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<li><font size=2>Statment by Kondo Katsuyuki sensei
<font size=1>The following response was offered by Kondo Sensei, the current head of the Daito ryu mainline:</font>

<font size=2>"Interview with Kondo Katsuyuki", From Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu: Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters, edited by Stanley A. Pranin. ©1995 Aiki News.

Pranin: "Are there any foreign practitioners who have reached that rank? [3rd dan. NS]"

Kondo: "The headmaster has awarded a third dan to Mr. Alain Floquet of France. There are also many foreigners training at branch dojos, and there are people from the United States, Australia, Canada, and other countries training at my dojo. I look forward to the future."

http://www.daito-ryu.org/kako3.html



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<li><font size=2>Statment by Mr. Kobayashi/ Seishin Abashiri Dojo
<font size=1>The following statment was made by Mr. Kobayashi Y., dojo secretary of the Seishin Abashiri dojo (Seishinkai). Originally posted by Kobayashi, Y., Honbu secretary. on July 03, 19100 at 08:37:07 - daito-ryu.com discussion board:</font>

<font size=2>"For example one frenchman, such Mr. Alain Floquet, came to the [Daitokan] Honbu and after a mere 10 days (ten) he received sandan from our Soke {Takeda Tokimune] after he had promised our Soke that he would have returned regularly to train. He [said he] "required" 3 dan to have credibility in France and to expand our School there. The Soke, maybe too generously granted him sandan. (Please note that at the time we also used Mokuroku and not only dan system)."

"We have never seen him again!"

"And now we hear that he has opened a whole federation of Daito-ryu in France!"

"Same happened with some canadians, who wrote to us many kind letters requesting affiliation and never came to the honbu to train."

"Also, we have met 6 Americans who desired to teach daito-ryu in the USA. They were acquainted with the first 3 sub-catalogues (ikkajo, Nikajo and Sankajo) learnt from videos (YES VIDEOS !!!!!) [The tapes] were evidently full of mistakes but [they] refused to wear a white belt and start again from zero."

"Now they teach in Massachussets and California and boast training in Abashiri at the Honbu. We have never seen them again.

Sincerely,

Kobayashi, Y."



**


Hope this information is useful,</font>

[johan smits]

Dear Mr. Scott,

Although I don't have any connection to Mr. Floquet or aikibudo I felt obliged to react to your post. I can do so feeling myself strengthened by the knowledge that I do not have to know what I am talking about concerning these matters, so much is obvious after reading your post.
But be assured I do know what I am talking about.

"Mr. Floquet and his "aikibudo" organization in France has been the subject of much controversy."

This I truly do not understand. Mr. Floquet is one of the older and leading teachers of Budo in Europe and is held in high regard. It is thanks to him (among others) that aikido, aikibudo and aikijujutsu, not to mention Katori Shinto Ryu can be practised overhere.

From your post it is obvious that you have no understanding at all about the history and present state of aikido and aikibudo in France.
I suggest that in the future you put a little more effort in getting the facts right before you post anything negative about people.
I think that's fair to expect from a moderator on this board.

Yours Sincerely,

Johan Smits

[kusanku]

Well, the Floquet sandan who ran the aikibudo seminars and classes of which I partook some time ago, was highly skilled in Something.

I say this from a perspective of Judo experience, karate experience, years of one and decades of other, and some Aikido interaction with other individuals,some of whom are now pretty big wheels but weren't then,no names,in other words, I have seen some bad aikido, and some good aikido, before.:-)

I was an assistant Judo instructor in a dojo that also taught Hombu Aikido under the Chicago Aikido Club, and they were real,and some of them were very good, and some got better later, but they tried it on at times with some of us, friendly like.

The guys who got better later, were smart enough not to.

They were friends of mine and I notice one of them occasionally posts on e-budo.

Now he actually looked like he could hurt someone, but we had enough smarts not to get into it. Used to joke around a lot.He said maybe he'd learn some Kempo some day.

I have dumped some other Aikido yudansha on their keisters in friendly comparisons.

Not this gentleman.

The aforementioned sandan was martially,I dunno about koryu , and I guess it wasn't daito ryu alright, as far as what the information seems to present, no argument there, but as far as being actually capable of doing some damage, this man was there.

Now if this knowledge and ability apparently possessed by Mr. Floquet, unless there is another Aikibudo fed in France? and passed down to his sandan, was not gained from Mr. Takeda or Mr. Katsuyki or someone,then I presume that he actually Is a senior student of Mr. Mochizuki's Yoseikan Aikibudo?

Unless the guy I ran into was a Mochizuki student?

I tell you, it was not like a lot of aikido I have run into, and it wasn't the same as either Yoshinkan or Tomiki style, both effectively presented to me at seminars as well( yes, I am not an Aiki ka, merely a fan, go to seminars, and those two types are good stuff too), but it worked, and there wasn't much escaping it when it was locked on,tell you that.

So, on Floquet, what is the whole story? He must have some real skill at something,because I know that bad aiki whatever can not handle real judo or karate so easily( ie at all).

Even good aiki can have a time of that.This isn't a my stuff is better thread, either.Just observations over many years, three decades and some.

I mention on another forum that karate people not also proficient in judo tend to be suckers for any judo throw, yet my karate skill(5-dan in ne org, though I no longer se the rank system) is much better than my judo skill(sankyu, Kodokan USJF, Konan Yudanshakai, 1967-1972). Still, I must be honest.And yes, my karate lineages(from Okinawa) are as real as it gets.

So must I be honest that many Aikika cannot block karate attacks even of the same type thrown in Aikido,let alone stop a judo waza when once it locks on, or do ground grappling.

Now I don't say they should be able to. As Mr. Amdur said earlier,Aikido is an art which is limited on purpose to enable mastery of certain priciples, and uninterrrupted by the pressing necessities of all out combat, it does so.

But the stuff I was shown , demo'ed for, and partook of a bit of, was of a different kind.Aiki Budo was as I had described , it was effective against holds, throw atempts and actual strikes and kicks. It had to be, he was teaching an Okinawan karate dojo full of black belts in those arts.(Isshin and Shorin and Goju and Kempo)

And while we had courtesy, and wouldn't try to hurt anyone, when he said attack with a punch or strike or kick, you can bet we did.

I for one was glad we had mats there.And that I was also judoka enough to have at least mastered ukemi sufficiently.

So, all I can say here: If Floquet was a fonie:-), this guy must have been one of Mochizuki's.Or someone's. It was called Aiki Budo and I was told it was supposed to be the syllabus of Daito Ryu.

I was shown Ippon-dori, seated version and the hanza handachi is it called something else, and told that it was the first kata taught by Takeda Tokimune.

I did not ask gentleman the name of his Sensei. To tell truth, it did not seem to matter.

I met him because his student, a fifth dan karateka,( and for purposes of comparison, I'm another) had earlier studied with a so-called tenth dan soke of Aikido, and tried to show me ikkyo, on me. I stood up out of it with a bad opinion of aikido.


As a judoka, I'm not easy to armlock, period.Most judoka's never get caught in a standing arm bar, its embarrassing, too easy to escape, so I let him set it first.

Seven months later, he told me he was studying aiki do from a new teacher( the sandan), and asked if I wanted to feel that ikkyo again.


I said, sure.He put it on and I couldn't move, and it hurt to boot.

I asked who his teacher was. He told me about Aikibudo and invited me to a private demo.That was something. The sandan and an uke were showing me, in slow motion, all kinds of stuff.

Then I got to try. Well, it was real.

Can't say it was Daito Ryu or even Aikijujutsu, but_it_was_real_

Like a scream from the dentists chair, as someone quotes from someone else and I quote from them( Robert Smith I think).

[PRehse]

I don't know Alain Floquet but I have trained with the Aikibudo group here in Quebec which is under him. He will be in Montreal the end of this month but since I am preparing to leave for Japan I wont have a chance to observe his seminar.

They incorporate some Daito-ryu kata in the training, they do not sell themselves as a Daito-ryu school - at least not in Quebec.

From what I understand his main association is with Mochizuki and the Yoseikan.

They also study the kata of Tenshin Katroi Shinto Ryu and Hitakayama from the Sugino School comes to Quebec quite frequently.

What do I think of them.

The Aikido is quite good and is quite similar to the Shodokan system that I am familiar with which is also kata based. I have seen superb Aikido and some absolutely terrible - the Aikibudo dojo in Quebec City I would recommend.

No comment on the sword stuff other than to say - I am using it as my introduction to the same. I decided to do so based on what I saw of their Aikido. The reason I don't train with them in Aikibudo is that their classes clash with mine.

[PRehse]

Originally posted by kusanku
I tell you, it was not like a lot of aikido I have run into, and it wasn't the same as either Yoshinkan or Tomiki style, both effectively presented to me at seminars as well( yes, I am not an Aiki ka, merely a fan, go to seminars, and those two types are good stuff too), but it worked, and there wasn't much escaping it when it was locked on,tell you that.

Just a small point. I spent a year doing Aikikai after I returned to the real world. It was OK but not exactly what I was looking for. In the process of trying to start a Shodokan (Tomiki) club I found an AIkibudo group and was invited to join a few practice sessions. It was like coming home. Very very similar in some respects. I spent the summer training with them and continue to train with them for TSKR kata. From my experience and observing their seminars, these people have good attitude and good Aiki-budo.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Smits,

Thank you for your comments.

But be assured I do know what I am talking about.

<font size=2>O.K., I feel better already!

This I truly do not understand. Mr. Floquet is one of the older and leading teachers of Budo in Europe and is held in high regard. It is thanks to him (among others) that aikido, aikibudo and aikijujutsu, not to mention Katori Shinto Ryu can be practised overhere.

<font size=2>That is nice to hear. I have heard good things about his aikido technique, though I have not seen him before (that I know of).

It may interest you to know, however, that the "Katori Shinto ryu" as currently taught by Sugino sensei and Sugawara sensei is either not recognized by the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu honbu dojo in Narita (Otake Risuke shihan), or is reluctantly tollerated. Otake sensei has stated clearly in the past that the only TSKSR is that which taught at the tradition's honbu in Narita. TSKSR is their physical and intellectual property (soke and shihanke) to disseminate as they choose.

That does not mean that these other branches of TSKSR are not worthwhile studies, or that perhaps they may or may not be very similar if not identical in many ways to the TSKSR.

That is a different subject altogether, and that is what I'm leading to in this reply (feel free to skip on down if you've heard this before!).

And for what its worth, I've seen footage of both Otake sensei and of Sugino (Yoshio) sensei, and have associates who used to train in "Sugino-ha TSKSR" in Germany. I personally find Sugino sensei's technique quite good, and very similar to that of Otake sensei (at least from what was shown on the tapes).

From your post it is obvious that you have no understanding at all about the history and present state of aikido and aikibudo in France. I suggest that in the future you put a little more effort in getting the facts right before you post anything negative about people. I think that's fair to expect from a moderator on this board.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but thank you for your condescending and somewhat irrelevant assumption regarding my understanding of aikido in France.

While this assumption is somewhat correct, I would advise you that I am deeply involved in the operation of several budo federations, one of which is an aikido federation which has a strong branch (shibu) in France.

In fact, members of our federation (including our Kaicho) have performed at the Budo Gala in Germany and France, appeared in numerous magazine articles throughout Europe, conducted numerous seminars, and have even produced and Aikido video tape filmed in France and narrated in French.

But regardless, allow me to make a few points:

1) I DO have my facts straight, and I am not posting anything negative about anyone. My only contribution to the founding post of this thread was that of pointing out that Mr. Floquet's background and credentials (issues of ligitimacy) have been the subject of controversy. This is a fact, not opinion.

If you are upset about or doubt the statments of those people who have made their experience/views publicly known (of which I have reproduced above and offered online references to where possible), please take it up with them.

I didn't say it, and it is not my problem.

2) My job as the moderator is to moderate, maintain focus and useful contribution, manage forum material, stimulate discussions and provide information and resources as time permits. What I have provided here is supported information and opinions by primary and secondary sources.

Please feel free to discuss them and debate them here or elsewhere if you feel inclined. But, I am simply the "messenger" in this case.

3) The issue of "effectiveness" and "talent" is invariably raised every time someone's lineage and background is discussed. While it is encouraging to hear that the person being discussed may be effective and talented, such opinions are of practically no consequence to issues concering lineage and background.

It is very simple.

People that choose to teach some kind of budo to the public have a responsibility and obligation to represent themselves truthfully. To do otherwise is called "fraudulent":

1a : Specifically : intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right.

Those that act in a deceitful or fraudulent manner are a liability to all who practice budo. At the very least, the public has the right to have access to background verification/qualification (through credible resources like e-budo.com), or to require instructors to be regulated by a governing body (yuck).

People can more or less do and teach whatever they like as long as they do not intentionally mislead the public or misrepresent themselves or the art they teach.

Everyone I'm sure is aware that aikijujutsu/ Daito ryu is a very trendy art to be affiliated with right now, and as such there are many inquiries to this board (and others) asking about the qualifications of proclaimed aikijujutsu instructors. It is a popular subject, and a valuable service to provide (hopefully one of many).

In closing, please try to keep this topic in perspective, and focus on the specific issue of qualification and representation.

It is really quite pointless to argue whether someone is nice, effective or talented, since these are all qualities that are very subjective and unquantifiable. If someone is interested in these kinds of issues, they should get a video, or go visit them to find out for themselves. One must judge such things for themselves in order to place any value on these words.

Technical issues such as reresentation and qualification are far more easy to discuss publicly, which is why these are the issues that members typically raise.

Regards,

[MarkF]

Originally posted by johan smits
I suggest that in the future you put a little more effort in getting the facts right before you post anything negative about people.
I think that's fair to expect from a moderator on this board.

I admit to being a little confused over this statement, as all I found were quoted material, the dates and from whom they were quoted, and quotes from a pretty good book on the subject.

Was it the statement that Mr. Floquet was the subject of much controversy which lead you to write such a purposeless post?

In fact, after reading just his post, I understood nothing at all which would lead you to say such a thing.

No, even after reading it for the third time did I get an inkling that the post was anything but negative, and that Nathan simply quoted differing versions on the same subject.

[johan smits]

Dear Mr. Scott,


Thank you very much for your reply. I understand what you are saying and agree with a lot of it. I am a librarian by profession, not a lybrarian and I share your idea on the public having the right to have acces to information.

Speaking from a professional point of view you are not just the messenger. You are the media. The contents of your posts and the way your posts are build up in itself are very important.

Even if you are, as you are rightly saying, just presenting supported information and opinions by primary and secondary sources, you are influencing your readers in a major way.

This influencing can be done with the best of intentions or with a hidden agenda.
The general public is usually unaware of this influencing and is therefore easily misled.
The build-up of your post was (unintentionally I am sure after reading your reply) such that Mr. Floquet and his aikibudo was presented in a negative way. This bothered me a lot.

Concerning the TSKSR, yes Otake sensei and Sugino sensei had different teachers so there are different opinions. Actually that is why you can't compare Sugino
sensei and Sugawara sensei (the last one has been a student of Otake sensei I believe).
The statement that the only TSKSR is that which is taught at Narita is therefore not totally correct.
But I do not want to enter this discussion, one without end I believe.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

[johan smits]

Dear Mr. Feigenbaum,

Please see my reply to Mr. Scott. Your post illustrates for a part what I mean.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

[AAC]

Dear Mr. Smith,

The TSKSR Soke has not given anybody permission to teach overseas. You don't need to compare different sensei's opinions. This is truthful & correct, no dissucion even needed.

Mr Cobb,

It is my understanding that Sugino Yoshio Sensei was authorized to teach TSKSR outside the hombu by a previous headmaster. Is this incorrect?

Toby Threadgill

[Walker]

I believe Sugino sensei was authorized to teach during his life, but the current situation is addressed here:
http://www.katorishintoryu.com/Engli...ments/new4.htm

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Smits,

Speaking from a professional point of view you are not just the messenger. You are the media. The contents of your posts and the way your posts are build up in itself are very important.

<font size=2>I'm not sure I agree with that - the internet is the medium & e-budo.com's "bulletin board system" is the media. I am in fact the "moderator", as I mentioned before, and often times a contributor to this medium/media. Media is defined as "a medium of cultivation, conveyance, or expression". So while the conveyance (in this case) is mine, the media in which I am conveying it is this BBS. Since I am compiling and publishing information that did not originate from myself, that makes ME the medium, or "messenger" between the information and the public. Those that do not agreee with the information should take issue with it's origin, not the medium it was presented in (e-budo or myself).

In fact, I look at this forum much like a library - an online information resource (and exchange).

But in any event, let's move on. If you don't agree with the messenger analogy for any reason then I'll be happy to concede. I don't think it is really important to the issue you raise.

Even if you are, as you are rightly saying, just presenting supported information and opinions by primary and secondary sources, you are influencing your readers in a major way.

This influencing can be done with the best of intentions or with a hidden agenda. The general public is usually unaware of this influencing and is therefore easily misled. The build-up of your post was (unintentionally I am sure after reading your reply) such that Mr. Floquet and his aikibudo was presented in a negative way. This bothered me a lot.

<font size=2>I understand your comments about writing in such a way as to influence or sway others - or at least identify your own position - but I don't see any of that in my opening post here. Not that I haven't presented information in the past in which my point of view has not been fairly obvious though. This is, as you say, natural. The way I see it is that there may be some people who are interested in my POV, for whatever reason. They have a chance to "read between the lines" when reading my own words, as well as to read information that is presented. Some will simply choose to consider my POV, and some will take it with a grain of salt and focus more on the facts/info presented. That is the nature of discussion.

In this case, I do not have any agenda, and I did not write enough to imply what my POV is. I challenge you to identify anything in my wording that displays my POV.

What I believe you are reacting to is my choice of material presented. I chose to focus on Mr. Floquet in this thread because he is often the subject of discussion, and yes, controversy. If you read the statements made by others regarding his credentials it is obvious why that has been the case.

You'll note that I presented information both from his own web page as well as information from outside sources.

The focus of this thread specifically (currently) is about whether Mr. Floquet is representing his qualifications correctly, and to identify what weight those credentials actually have.

For example, Mr. Floquet seems to think that Takeda Munemitsu, who issued his Kyoju Dairi license (a high license), was the ligitimate soke of Daito ryu. It would seem that he is the vast minority in this belief, as those in positions of greater experience, knowledge and authority seem to strongly disagree. That being the case, I think it is an important point to raise for those considering the merit of such stated credentials.

With all due respect, I think your reacting from an emotional POV than a logical POV.

Concerning the TSKSR, yes Otake sensei and Sugino sensei had different teachers so there are different opinions. Actually that is why you can't compare Sugino sensei and Sugawara sensei (the last one has been a student of Otake sensei I believe).

<font size=2>The current soke and Otake sensei himself did not appreciate Sugino sensei instructing outside the honbu under the tradition's name. Sugino Yoshio sensei was licensed by the previous soke originally, and as such his permission to teach under the TSKSR name was tollerated.

However, it is important to realize that Sugino Yoshio sensei has passed away, and his son is now the head of his KSR organization. I don't believe his son has a license to teach under the TSKSR, or for that matter, any license from the TSKSR honbu (that I've heard of). I would imagine that now puts his group in a very awkward position politically in regards to the use of the TSKSR/KSR name.

Sugawara sensei was a student of Otake sensei, and I believe had some level of instructors license while he was studying there. But Sugawara sensei has seperated from Otake sensei, and Otake sensei does not agree with his use of the tradition's name either.

The statement that the only TSKSR is that which is taught at Narita is therefore not totally correct. But I do not want to enter this discussion, one without end I believe.

<font size=2>In one conversation, Otake sensei has stated that Sugino Yoshio sensei was licensed by the previous headmaster, and is such allowed to use the license. Then in another conversation, Otake sensei will clearly state that there is no TSKSR outside the honbu dojo. That, combined with interactions with those in the TSKSR dojo, indicate that the permission was granted reluctantly, and that they are anxious to regain full "ownership" of their art.

This discussion is probably best held in the sword section though...

Regards,

[johan smits]

Toby,

You are correct. I think Sugino sensei started TSKSR under some programme of the Kodokan Institute.

Funny thing is that in Europe it is not a matter of choice between teachers. Sugino line TSKSR is the only thing availabel overhere.
The lineage thing is not such a big issue here, we just train. In France the influence of Minoro Moichizuki sensei is also very obvious. For a big part that's where Floquet's aikibudo originated.

Best regards,

Johan Smits

[johan smits]

Dear Mr. Scott,

First, I never accept challenges. Not sure if I am too wise for that or just a coward.

I do not mean to say that you try to impose your POV on people. Indeed there is nothing in your wording that displays your POV.

That was not my issue. My point is (or better said, was)
that the build up of your post could be read as suggestive in a negative sense towards it's subject.

It is obvious that you did not do that intentionally. I was a bit harsh since I was under the impression that I was dealing with a colleague professional information specialist so to speak. I understand this is not the case. However I do think that people who deal in information should be aware of the consequences and should understand how information works.

About TSKSR, you are quite right that is for the sword section, I won't participate though (that's not a big loss I know). On the other hand you know what they say:
"Once given ..."

Best Regards,

Johan Smits