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Thread: Katori Shinto ryu - instruction issue

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    <font size=1>image lifted from TSKSR home page at www.katorishintoryu.com/English/index2.htm</font>

    I'd like to re-start a thread regarding the (rather tired) issue of "who is ligitimately qualified to teach TSKSR", since there are some new developments worth considering. One is the passing of Sugino Yoshio sensei, and the other is an official statment posted by the TSKSR honbu dojo, referenced at the bottom of this post. If we can keep focused and productive, perhaps this thread will be an easy place to refer people to in the future who are unclear on this issue.

    BTW, I should start by clarifying that I'm in no way an authority of involved at all with TSKSR. I'm simply interested in clearing the air, since the subject is constantly brought up on all the BBS. The information presented in this post is from my own recollection or from reasonably credible sources on the internet, and may or may not be entirely correct currently.

    Those qualified to offer corrections please feel free!

    **

    Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu currently has an administrative structure that consists of a split transmission line; the so-ke and the shihan-ke.

    The soke line is currently headed by Iizasa Shuri no Suke Yasusada (20th generation headmaster). Iizasa soke does not actually practice the tradition for health reasons, so the art is actually taught through a seperate (but associated) shihan line (shihan-ke) by Otake Risuke shihan, under the soke's authority and supervision. This kind of structure is not all that uncommon (split transmission line), and allows the art to be passed down accurately while retaining a tradition of blood transmission/ownership through basically family inheritance.

    Iizasa soke represents the blood line of transmission, and TSKSR is technically his personal property.

    Otake shihan represents the instrucional/performance aspect of the tradition, and while accountable to Iizasa soke, he is singly charged and responsible for the proper instruction of the art.

    Confusion in this regard has risen do to the use of the Katori Shinto ryu name most notably Sugino Yoshio sensei and Sugawara Tetsutaka sensei.



    **

    Sugino Yoshio sensei

    Sugino sensei began training in TSKSR under several senior exonents (ca.1930-1940), named Shiina, Tamai and Ito, and was later licensed by Iizasa Kinjiro soke himself - 19th generation headmaster - after about ten years of training.

    Iizasa Kinjiro soke wrote the following preface to a book written by Sugino sensei:

    "...The social situation here no longer allows us to keep the secrets of the Katori Shinto Ryu doctrine within the school. Since the appearance, in the spring of 1935, of the association for the revival of martial arts in Japan, I feel guilty that I have allowed some of our founders' arts to die out, therefore, I have chosen, as a service to our nation, to show the general public, through the handling of the sword, certain parts of Shinto Ryu. At the right moment, Master Sugino suggested publishing, with Mr. ITTO KIKOUE's assistance, the existing techniques in order to guide the youngest amongst us. I gave him my support and hence this book has come to see the light of day.

    It contains the wealth of the author's experiences, conveys the essential spirit of the martial [art] and explains in detail the Omote Waza techniques. It may be used as a manual for beginners or for those wishing to perfect their knowledge. Being published, at this time when, attempts are being made to popularize the martial arts, I feel certain that this book will be of service to future society.

    Lastely I must express my admiration for the authors and the efforts that they have made.

    Signed at Katori, Mid-Autumn 1941.

    IIZASA SHURI NO SUKE KINJIRO, 19th descendant of the founder."
    <font size=2>Sugino Yoshio sensei passed away in 1998, and his son, Sugino Yukihiro, is now the head of his KSR organization. While Yoshio sensei was specifically licensed to teach, I don't believe his son has a license to teach under the TSKSR honbu, or for that matter, any license from the TSKSR honbu (that I've heard of). I imagine that now puts the "Sugino-ha KSR" group in a very awkward position politically in regards to the use of the TSKSR/KSR name.

    Sugino Yoshio sensei was licensed (Menkyo Kaiden?) by the previous soke originally, and as such his permission to teach under the TSKSR name was tollerated during Sugino's life time. However, the current soke and Otake sensei himself did not seem to appreciate Sugino sensei instructing outside their honbu while using the TSKSR/KSR name.

    In one statement Otake sensei stated that Sugino Yoshio sensei was allowed to use the license considering the circumstances. Then in another statment, Otake sensei would clearly say that there is no TSKSR outside that of the honbu dojo in Narita.

    This pattern of contradiction, combined with discussions from those associated with the TSKSR dojo, seems to indicate that the permission was granted reluctantly, and that Otake S. and Iizasa S. have been anxious to regain full "ownership" of their art.

    Online sources:
    <font size=1>http://www.aikibudo.com/akbd/akbdgb/...ons/sugino.htm
    http://www.furyu.com/onlinearticles/Iizasa.html
    http://koryu.com/library/dlowry4.html
    http://www.uoguelph.ca/~kataylor/97tin98.htm
    http://www3.sympatico.ca/apc/en-tabg.htm
    </font>


    **


    Sugawara Tetsutaka sensei

    Sugawara sensei began training under Otake Risuke shihan in 1975, and received a Kyoshi license in TSKSR from Otake sensei in 1986.

    He has since apparently fallen out of good graces with Otake sensei/TSKSR honbu dojo, but continues to use the TSKSR/KSR name while teaching swordsmanship.

    Online sources:
    <font size=1>http://www.stanford.edu/group/aiki-w.../sugawara.html</font>


    **

    Katori Official Notice

    Despite conveyed public statements originating from the TSKSR honbu, there still seems to be confusion over whether Sugino sensei's group and Sugawara sensei's group are permitted to teaching and/or rank in TSKSR/KSR. Technically, in TSKSR, it would seem that only Otake shihan is licensed to teach/rank in TSKSR.

    An official notice issued by TSKSR honbu confirms this:

    I must say that there are only four people [outside] of Japan with titulation from the school, but it only allows them to inform, transmit and write about it. They are not authorized to teach or practice with anyone who does not belong to the Ryu.
    <font size=2>This notice was posted by Mr. Francisco Comeron, TSKSR Mokuroku. Though there is no date, it appears to have been written within the last year judging by the date of issuance of Mr. Comeron's mokuroku award.

    Please find the entire annoncment at the following authorized TSKSR web site:

    http://www.katorishintoryu.com/Engli...ments/new4.htm

    Personally, I think the confusion lies partly in the terms "teach" and "instructor" as used within the TSKSR system.

    If I understand correctly, the honbu shihan (Otake Risuke in this case) may or may not allow certain disciples of his to train with and/or teach students outside the honbu dojo as long as:

    1) the students have taken the keppan blood oath and be considered current students of TSKSR as recognized by Otake sensei

    2) said teacher only transmits those methods of which they have been authorized and licensed to convey (not to exceed their level of initiation).

    Since no other student of TSKSR would receive the full teachings of the tradition except for the honbu shihan, it would be impossible for there to be another "instructor" of the art. Only authorized teachers of certain sections.

    At least, that's the best I can make of all this.

    Looking forward to corrections and discussion,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th May 2001 at 00:35.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Damn paper shredder!
    Last edited by gmellis; 13th May 2001 at 03:47.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

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    This is a very difficult matter. Any discussion that follows
    (not so much on this board but in general) will not be "well balanced" because of the fact that Sugino Sensei has passed away and cannot give his point of view while Otake sensei can.

    Since Sugino sensei's permission to teach and consequently use the name did not come from the present soke or from Otake sensei it is (or was) not truly possible for them to "forbid"him.

    Anyway since Sugino sensei has passed away it is now too late to do that. They had ample time to settle the thing while he was still around. The fact that they did not says something. But that can be labeled as speculation.

    What could be a solution to the whole thing is a statement by the present soke and Otake sensei, translated by a sworn translator in which is stated that is it forbidden to use the name TSKSR. This should be send out in the original to those using the name and to the world at large.

    And they should take notice and they should act honourable.

    Johan Smits

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    I find the discussion of ?gin-house?h issues regarding Shinto Ryu by people not initiated into the tradition (to say the least) or authorized to speak on behalf of the organizations they may belong to be in poor taste.

    Yours sincerely,
    Daniel Lee

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    Daniel,
    It is poor taste to discuss why or why not, but it is not poor taste to tell the world that TSKSR belongs to the hombu and can be taught by no one else. There are plenty of other members of the ryu who behave correctly. The group in question is not. It is not bad manners to point that out.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Daniel Lee
    I find the discussion of ?gin-house?h issues regarding Shinto Ryu by people not initiated into the tradition (to say the least) or authorized to speak on behalf of the organizations they may belong to be in poor taste.
    ____________________________________________
    I agree with Daniel. The only people these issues concern are those people actually involved. Even my previous comments regarding semi-internal matters may have been inappropriate and in poor taste. Regardless, let's put this discussion to rest and leave it to those who it involves (which doesn't include Daniel, myself, or anybody else other than Soke, Shihan and the other people involved).
    Greg Ellis
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

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    Dear Mr. Lee and others,

    it is probably best to put this discussion to rest.

    However giving their opinion on matters and getting into discussions is what people tend to do and there is nothing wrong with that, it is called one of the pillars of democracy I believe.

    Kind Regards,

    Johan Smits

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    Hmm. First time I've ever been called "other." "Dumbass," yes but....Anyway. Nobody wants to infringe on anyones civil liberties and bring down the hallowed walls of democracy here god forbid donchya know. I would no sooner rob people of their rights to gossip and speculate about in-house matters of the TSKSR than I would the rights of paparozzis and bloodsucking newspaper editors to speculate and pry into the personal lives and skeletons of famous people for the sake of entertainment value. Kind regards,
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

  9. #9
    Den Guest

    Default intent

    I don't think Scott Sensei's intent in posting this thread, was to gossip or dig into the internal affairs of TSKSR. The original thread began regarding Mssr. Alain Floquet. During that discussion it became clear that it would be usefull to learn more about the TSKSR.

    With that said, what I have often found useful about this forum is being introduced to new martial arts (specifically relating to my own interests in aikijujutsu and JSA). This in-turn informs me as to schools that I may want to visit and study with.

    The discussion of TSKSR has been interesting in all the threads. Given that no MA is without issues and conflicts, TSKSR is clearly an interesting art, and one worthy of study. If due to limits placed by its Honbu on instruction outside of Japan, given the time and opportunity, I would nevertheless be interested in studying with one of the outside groups.

    respectfully,
    -Anthony

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    Interesting thread. Greg, I learned a long time ago to copy your posts, since that darn shredder can turn on very quickly .

    But, one thing I find interesting is that one can study at the TSKSR hombu dojo as a non resident, basically flying over once a year for a certain amount of time, and receive menkyo. I had always pictured in my mind that you had to live there full time....
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

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    Hello,

    I have to admit to being a little surprised by some of the responses.

    My intention was primarily to provide a place to consolidate pre-published information already known to the public, more or less, and at the very least use this thread to refer others to who don't know how to use a search engine. Aside from my own interpretation at the bottom - which I'll be happy to edit or delete if some think it is inappropriate - the vast majority of information has been compiled from elsewhere on the net.

    I have a great deal of respect for ryu-ha like TSKSR and would not want to do anything that could be harmful. But, this conservative tradition has already (apparently) licensed someone (Sugino sensei) to teach outside the honbu, endorsed a book written about it, published a set of three other bi-lingual books (under Mr. Draeger and Mr. Sugawara), appeared in a BBS TV special, choreographed one film (in addition to the seven samurai that Sugino S. choreographed), authorized an official webpage, and just recently offered an interview which was just conducted/translated and published (conducted by Mr. Power and Dragon Times). It seems to me that, like it or not, the cats already pretty far out of the bag. I first learned of TSKSR many years ago from the many references made to it by Donn Draeger in all his writings.

    There are growing organizations around the world claiming to study and teach TSKSR/KSR, and it will continue to grow if left unchallenged publicly.

    I can see why TSKSR would not want any further publicity (if thats the case), but it seems to me that the kind of publicity that this thread will bring is the kind that will serve to narrow down the popularization of the art.

    The public notice posted on their home page sounds pretty clear as to how the honbu intends the tradition to be transmitted (generally).

    But if those of you "more in the know" think TSKSR would be better served by killing this thread, then so be it. I for one won't challenge anyone claiming to study or teach KSR anymore.

    Sincere apologies to those that feel this subject shouldn't have been brought up.



    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Out of the bag and miauling.


    I think Mr. Scott gives an accurate description of the situation concerning TSKSR.

    The posts are good and offer valuable information.
    With all respect for the people "more in the know" I don't think it is a good idea to kill anything.

    This board does not exist to serve any particular style or group I think it exists to share information and to discuss matters on any subjects which are related to Japanese martial arts.

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

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    Like Nathan, I am not a practitioner of TSKSR, but I was able to relay a series of questions to Otake sensei which appeared as an interview in Dragon Times #18. It is not an in-depth "investigative report" a'la "60 Minutes" -- but the answers were quite illuminating to we "outsiders."

    Iizasa sensei did study TSKSR up through high school, but he had to quit because his job with Japan Rail did not allow him enough free time -- even on Sundays. The soke is 63 years old and has two young daughters about 24 years old; therefore, the next soke will be a woman -- unless they find just the right kind of man who will become yoshi. Otake sensei, his sons, and even grandsons will maintain the technical side of the house until such time that a soke is able to become the technical leader.

    According to Otake sensei, only the soke can give permission to teach TSKSR -- and he has not yet authorized any overseas teachers. Otake sensei does have a lot of influence in matters, however -- Iizasa sensei is the final decision-maker.

    Certain well-known sensei teach "Shinto Ryu" with inaccuracies in the waza. These inaccuracies are undesirable, but *are* being propagated -- even in Europe. Only those who have taken keppan are recognized by the soke and shihan-ke; however, they are looking for "a few good men" (my quotes, not theirs). For instance (this was not published), if students have learned under Teacher B they would be recognized if/when they take keppan. However, it was my impression that not all applicants would be allowed to take keppan. Otake sensei said several times that "proper, authentic waza" is most important. It is just my take on the issue, but I believe that if a student of Teacher B, C, or D went to Narita and displayed sound waza -- and a willingness to make corrections -- then that student could recieve an opportunity to take keppan. It would be individual-based, and Otake sensei's feeling of that person's spirit.

    I do not feel that I have participated in "gin-house" discussions. This information is valuable for we outsiders because it keeps us informed of the reality of the situation.
    These open "outsider" discussions are beneficial to all concerned. For instance, as an "outsider" I've heard about a particular style headquartered in Southern California whose headmaster once claimed association (both directly and indirectly) with TSKSR. Although this person now officially states there is no connection, some of his schools still maintain there is a connection to TSKSR.

    Now, some enlightened people say it is wrong to bring up the subject; as long as "they" don't hurt anybody, what they say or do is irrelevant. Others (e.g., "Koryu Cops") maintain that propagating such misinformation hurts the unsuspecting student as well as the true school. So, in an attempt to get to the fount of knowledge and obtain the "school solution", I asked Otake sensei about a couple of these matters. He didn't mind that I was an "outsider" (and that may be because I had an introduction, and the translator is his student) -- Otake sensei seemed more concerned about the good name and quality of instruction of TSKSR.

    Otake sensei stated categorically that the Southern California school was never aligned to TSKSR, it has nothing to do with TSKSR, and they can teach whatever they want as long as they don't call it "Katori Shinto Ryu." So, the Southern California school may not use any of the names derived from "Katori Shinto Ryu" -- or weave those names in the school's name in any sort of way (e.g., they cannot use "Katori Shinto Ryu," "Shinto Katori Ryu," "Katori Ryu," "Shinto Ryu," etc.).

    Otake sensei also stated that Sugawara sensei did not have Menkyo Kaiden and he is not allowed to teach. Perhaps it was only me? Or, did others assume he had menkyo kaiden? The question was "If Sugawara sensei is menkyo kaiden, can he still teach TSKSR after being expelled?" Some will decry my question, or Otake sensei's pronouncement, as "politics." Well, frankly -- yes ... it is politics. It is the official stance of both the soke and shihan-ke. The announcement is certainly distasteful to some students of "Shinto Ryu." I speak from direct experience within my organization when I say "I understand your confusion." I know how disrupting the situation becomes when only a select few know of an expulsion. Believe me, although unpleasant, it is better for everybody to know the decision.

    Listening to Otake sensei as he answered my questions (on video tape), he is strongly concerned about the misuse and misapplication of the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu name, and transmission of "weird" waza identified as "Shinto Ryu."

    Regards,
    Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    Sometimes, the truth only comes from the fountain, and Guy has had more than a few gulps.

    Nice, Guy!

    Mark

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    Mr. Power,

    Excellent post, much obliged.

    Best Regards,

    Johan Smits

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