Katori Shinto ryu - instruction issue

[Johan]

Hmm, difficult question. Abroad Sugino-ha is more spread than Otake-ha, this can be a reason for Otakes views. And is it just a coincident that a "official" Katori (Otake) website has started after the passing of Sugino Sensei?

There are two lines of teaching in Katori (Otake and Sugino) they differs some in teaching but who can say that either of them are wrong. They have all studied under certified instructors.

What soke thinks of all this we really do not know.

I know that a couple of Sugino-ha instructors has the mokuroku, and acoarding to www.katorishintoryu.com this is what you must have to be able to instruct.

[George Ledyard]

Originally posted by Nathan Scott
Hello,

I have a great deal of respect for ryu-ha like TSKSR and would not want to do anything that could be harmful. But, this conservative tradition has already (apparently) licensed someone (Sugino sensei) to teach outside the honbu, endorsed a book written about it, published a set of three other bi-lingual books (under Mr. Draeger and Mr. Sugawara), appeared in a BBS TV special, choreographed one film (in addition to the seven samurai that Sugino S. choreographed), authorized an official webpage, and just recently offered an interview which was just conducted/translated and published (conducted by Mr. Power and Dragon Times). It seems to me that, like it or not, the cats already pretty far out of the bag. I first learned of TSKSR many years ago from the many references made to it by Donn Draeger in all his writings.

I just read the interview with Otake sensei in the current issue of Dragon times.

Dragon Times Issue #18 includes the following article:
• The first interview with Risuke Otake of Tenshin Shoden Katori xxShinto Ryu, Japan's oldest martial arts school. Apparently this magazine is available at Borders Bookstores if any one is interested. I checked their website but the article isn't on-line at this point.
http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes/Pages/Dthome.htm

I was quite surprised to find that Otake Sensei seems to be quite open to the idea that TSKSR could be taught abroad by qualified instructors and that he would be open to students from outside Japan training under him in TSKSR if they were serious and could come to japan regularly. This would not require them to be resident in Japan full time.

Otake Sensei did however go out of his way to say that none of this was his decision to make and was up to the head of the ryu. This seemed to imply that there is some divergence of opinion within the ryu as to whether things should be opened up more than they currently are.

Since Otake Sensei himself is willing to discuss these issues in a public forum like a magazine interview and is willing to suggest that he is open to changes if approved by the head of the ryu then I don't see that serious discussion of this issue by non-ryu members on this discussion board is inappropriate or rude.

[Karl Friday]

Abroad Sugino-ha is more spread than Otake-ha, this can be a reason for Otakes views. And is it just a coincident that a "official" Katori (Otake) website has started after the passing of Sugino Sensei?

A web page being, of course, a significant indication of the credentials and legitimacy of an individual or organization. Until the late 1870s, only ryuha officially licensed by the emperor were allowed to operate their own web sites . . .

In any case, there is no "Sugino-ha" or "Otake-ha" of the Katori Shinto-ryu. Otake Risuke is the designated head instructor for the ryuha, which belongs to the Iizasa family.

Even if, for the sake of argument, one assumes that Sugino was fully authorized to initiate and instruct students independently of Otake, that authorization (and with it, the connection of any of his students--or their students--to the Katori Shinto-ryu) would have ended with his death. Sugino's students' rights to call what they are doing "Katori Shinto-ryu" are limited to whatever Iizasa chooses to recognize them to be. Any other considerations are irrelevant.

This simple fact make this whole debate pointless. All that Sugino's students need to do in order to establish their rights to the use of the Katori Shinto-ryu "brand name" is get documented permission from Iizasa. This is a simple matter of writing him a letter.

Otake and Iizasa Yasusada have, at least in the past, been opposed to establishing branch schools--in or out of Japan. Just a wild guess, but this may be a key reason why there are fewer schools abroad operating under the auspices of Otake and Iizasa.

What soke thinks of all this we really do not know.

I'm afraid that we do. Iizasa has made his position on this very clear: Otake Risuke is the designated head instructor for the system.

Again, if anyone believes there is room for doubt about this, it is a very simple matter for those who think they are authorized teachers of Katori Shinto-ryu to write to Iizasa for confirmation.

I know that a couple of Sugino-ha instructors has the mokuroku, and acoarding to www.katorishintoryu.com this is what you must have to be able to instruct.

As has been explained numerous times in various threads, there is a difference between having the minimum rank/credential for teaching and having permission to teach--a difference between being qualified to teach and being authorized to teach. My PhD means that I'm qualified to teach history, but I can't award BAs MAs or PhDs to students just on the basis of that degree. For that, I also need the authorization of some accredited university. I have that authorization through the University of Georgia, but even that doesn't give my students the right to claim any connection to Stanford.

This distinction is common in many traditional Japanese arts, including many bugei ryuha. In the Kashima-Shinryu organization (which [i]does/i] actively encourage the establishment of branch schools), for example, the minimum license a student must attain in order to be qualified to operate a branch school is okuden. But not all okudenholders are authorized to run schools of their own. That's a whole separate process that involves many considerations beyond the skill of the individual student.

Thus, possession of a Mokuroku ranking may indicate that someone is qualified to teach the Katori Shinto-ryu system, but it doesn't automatically authorize that person to teach. Only Iizasa can do that.

[bob elder]

I just recieved word from Japan that a Sugawara student will do a demo at our Batto Tai Kai in August. I understand he will also start a class at our dojo and come over several times a year for instruction. I have known him for 11 years now as he trains at our Machida Toyama Ryu branch for the cutting. Bob Elder

[tawassel]

What qualifications does Mr. William Gleason in Boston have concerning Kashima Shin-ryu? His websight states that he learned in Japan between 1970-1980 and that he teaches regular lessons at his Aikido dojo. What is his offical rank and status in Kashima Shin-ryu?
Thanks in advance for the info.

[Karl Friday]

Originally posted by tawassel
What qualifications does Mr. William Gleason in Boston have concerning Kashima Shin-ryu? His websight states that he learned in Japan between 1970-1980 and that he teaches regular lessons at his Aikido dojo. What is his offical rank and status in Kashima Shin-ryu?

Mr. Gleason has no rank, status, credentials, or qualifications in Kashima-Shinryu. He has never studied Kashima-Shinryu.

There are, at this time, no Aikido dojo or instructors anywhere in the world authorized to teach Kashima-Shinryu. The closest thing to an exception to this is the dojo operated by Inaba Minoru, at the Meiji Grand Shrine in Tokyo. Mr. Inaba, who studied KSR for less than a year, under the late Kunii Zen'ya, and has no ranks or licenses in KSR, received special permission from Seki Humitake, the 19th and current KSR shihanke, to teach basic KSR sword techniques as part of his Aikido classes for the shrine personnel. He was not given permission to teach any other KSR techniques--and was not actually taught any other KSR, other than some basic jujutsu. He was not granted permission to teach any part of the KSR curriculum anywhere other than the Meiji Grand Shrine, to award any form of KSR ranks or credentials to his students, or to allow his students to use the name "Kashima-Shinryu."

Considerations of lineage, authorization and legitimacy aside, what Mr. Inaba teaches is Aikido, not Kashima-Shinryu. The kata he teaches still bear some superficial resemblence to KSR--enough to recognize where they came from--but Mr. Inaba's art differs fundamentally from KSR in philosophy, tactics, timing, application of power, and style of movement. It is no more accurate to describe it as Kashima-Shinryu, or as a branch or offshoot of Kashima-Shinryu than it would be to describe English as a branch or offshoot of Latin.

There are at present four authentic and authorized KSR branch schools in North America (UCLA; University of Georgia; Eureka, CA; and Bozeman, MT); one in Helsinki, Finland; one in Frankfurt, Germany; and 16 in Japan. Further information on the art and on the branch schools can be found at http://www.ksr.facade.com.

[Den]

The correct url is http://ksr.facade.com just one of those dns addresses that doesn't use WWW to introduce itself.

repectfully,

Anthony

[johan smits]

Mr. Friday,

I have a question concerning one of your posts on Katori Shinto ryu.

In this post you say that the rights of Sugino's students to call what they are doing Katori Shinto ryu are limited to whatever Iizasa chooses to recognize them to be. Any other considerations are irrelevant.

I think it is not as simple as that. Are ryu protected in any way by international law? Are they trademarked or whatever?

You also say: This simple fact makes this whole debate pointless.

I dare to disagree with you (you won't lose any sleep over that I know). A debate like this may point to the fact that ryu have not adapted to modern times. If they had they would have made arrangements to protect themselves by law.

For those who know more please note I am not talking about Katori Shinto ryu or any ryu in particular!

Just think you can't be part of the large world and expect all people to behave as you would want them to.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

[Karl Friday]

Originally posted by johan smits
you say that the rights of Sugino's students to call what they are doing Katori Shinto ryu are limited to whatever Iizasa chooses to recognize them to be. Any other considerations are irrelevant.

I think it is not as simple as that. Are ryu protected in any way by international law? Are they trademarked or whatever? . . .

A debate like this may point to the fact that ryu have not adapted to modern times. If they had they would have made arrangements to protect themselves by law.

Of course bugei koryu haven't adapted to modern times. The very existence of koryu bugei is about the preservation of feudal artifacts. It's silly--and hypocritical--to applaud the survival of an educational system developed by and for a ruling class of feudal warriors, and at the same time sneer at it for not being modern.

International law isn't worth the paper it takes to print out the phrase, in terms of actual protection of the sort of rights we're talking about here. Among other problems, trademark law is about money. For organizations like the Katori Shinto-ryu to obtain and enforce some kind of international trademark, they would have to prove financial harm. And inasmuch as most are not profit-making or even profit-oriented enterprises, that would be next-to-impossible to do. Otake's position that he doesn't wish to establish branch schools overseas would make it even more difficult, as he couldn't claim loss of income through competition when he's already made it clear that he doesn't wish to compete in that market.

A few years ago the Maniwa Nenryu ran into trouble with a sake brewery that trademarked their name out from under them. The ryuha lost its first court challenge on this; I haven't heard if anything has been resolved since then. Obviously this (completely unrelated) corporation's seizure of the school's name was perfectly legal, but I'm hard-pressed to agree that it was morally right. Right, justice and law are too often different things.

Not so long ago, bugei ryuha defended their "property rights" with duels and challenges. Today they have to depend on the integrity of those interested in them. Most koryu still require students to sign oaths pledging to obey the school's rules and the wishes of the headmaster. Such oaths usually invite divine punishment on those who violate them. But beyond this, there isn't much the schools can do to enforce their rules in the case of outsiders or former insiders who simply refuse to respect them.

you can't be part of the large world and expect all people to behave as you would want them to.

Sadly that's true. Honor and integrity become rarer commodities by the day. It would be nice to think that there are still substantial numbers of people around for whom "so what, there's no way you can stop me" isn't a full and sufficient answer to the challenge, "what you're doing is wrong." And it would be particularly nice to think that people who devote time and effort to the study of arcane bits of the feudal past would bring to these studies a profound respect for the traditions and their ethical responsibilities to them. But I'm old and cynical enough to know that that's not always the way things are.

Most koryu have never asked to be "part of the large world," and in fact do their best to avoid this. Frankly, I'm baffled by the position (often advanced in forums like this one) that a ryuha headmaster doesn't necessarily have the right to make the rules regarding his school's name and arts. If someone doesn't care about issues like authority and lineage, what possible value can attaching him/herself to the name of some particular koryu be to him/her? Why not just make up a new name of his/her own for what he/she is teaching? And if someone does care about being part of a lineage and tradition, how can he/she not the rules and wishes of the ryuha headmaster?

Every unauthorized use of a ryuha name simply reinforces the desirability of restricting instruction in these arts to small numbers of people who can be trusted. Every argument against the proprietary rights of a school simply works against the advisability of opening up opportunities for instruction. And ultimately all this just makes it harder for anyone--especially foreigners--to gain access to these teachings.

[johan smits]

Dear Mr. Friday,

Thank you very much for your answer. I have taken good notice of the part on international law, it made things much clearer.

I admit to acting silly (sometimes). But hypocritical? No.

You say the koryu bugei is about the preservation of feudal artifacts.
That is one way to look at it I guess. When you think of a ryu as a historical artifact you want it preserved and unchanged.
But what happened to the "fountain of knowledge, flowing towards us from the past"? When you look at a ryu as a source of knowledge, to be used in your life more as a tool than as a hobby or passtime, then it is not so strange to wonder why these systems have not adapted, at least partially.


For example: I have studied a certain art for a few years. A traditional Japanese sword school, which is quite widespread in Europe and the subject of much debate. I stopped. although it is a fascinating art, because I could not make a link to my life in this day and age and my time is too precious to playact

We study history, not for histories sake but to gain wisdom and to be used in our lives in this day and age. Isn't that what makes history a living science? Otherwise what would be the use of the study of history?

About koryu doing their best to avoid being part of the large world. Well if you say so, but publishing video's and books and selling them worldwide doesn't help I think.
What I mean to say is that no matter how recluse you think you are, you're very existence means you are a part of the large world. And people will find out and trouble you.

About your being baffled (it is a beautifull word).

Naturally a ryuha headmaster has the right to make the rules regarding his school's name and arts. He can exercise these rights within the ryu and over all the people who are connected to the ryu. Outside the ryu, and with people who are no part of the ryu it is a different matter.

I fail to see how a sensei, or a soke can exercise any rights over people who by their own (sensei's and soke's) standards do not belong to the ryu.
On the other hand being part of the large world also means you have influence. With this influence come certain rights. The right to be treated with respect and the right to have your integrity as a being (person or ryu) not damaged.

Integrity, honor and good manners is not something we can expect just like that, it is a mutual agreement.

One more thing:

I have seen you on tape you're not old and cynical at all, you look lean and mean.

Having said that.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

[carl mcclafferty]

Dr. Friday:

Thanks for your comments. I could not have defended Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu nor explained the basic principle of Koryu as eloquently.

Many european Sugino Ryu practitioners are making keppan with Otake Sensei and the Soke. Although I have not studied in Sugino Ryu, many of the former members tell me that the techniques are different , something that the general public does not understand (I was surprised).

Mr. Smit:
There are many good Gendai Sword arts to chose from that might link up with you life and age today. Nakamura Ryu Toyama Ryu and Ryuseiken are a few that come to mind. If you need contact information for any of these, please e-mail and I will be happy to send you the information.

Thanks
Carl McClafferty

[johan smits]

Mr. McClafferty,

Thank you for your kind offer I will keep it in mind. I think you're right the modern arts might be better suited.

About "said school" you know in Europe it is/was not a matter of choice between teachers. If you want to do koryu you train in what is offered.
Most people training that I know are perfectly aware of the fact that Otake sensei and the soke are the authorities on the art
As far as I know the main differences are in the focussed attention in the techniques and in applications in kata.
One teacher says step forward while blocking/cutting while the other says step back.

I always found the way we were taught more "do-ish" than the original material.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

[Dan Harden]

Johan writes
In this post you say that the rights of Sugino's students to call what they are doing Katori Shinto ryu are limited to whatever Iizasa chooses to recognize them to be. Any other considerations are irrelevant.

I think it is not as simple as that. Are ryu protected in any way by international law? Are they trademarked or whatever?

You also say: This simple fact makes this whole debate pointless.

*******************

Johan
I think the reason it makes a debate pointless is that both the name and the art are the property of this mans family.
You mentioned International law and trademarks. Do we, as people need these things to tell us when we are doing something wrong? It doesn't seem to stop criminals (just arrest their behaviour for a time) and good people seem to have a moral compass.
Perhaps the Ryu's head needs no modern international law or trademark to tell him its his. He knows its his. Good people know its his.
Trademarks and laws are for protection against immoral people.

I know people who studied the art for years, and train in its Kata to this day. They include it as part of training in their Dojo, but they won't use the name or fool themselves or others into ranking them in it. Why?
It's not theirs. It belongs to someone.


**************************

Johan writes
Naturally a ryuha headmaster has the right to make the rules regarding his school's name and arts. He can exercise these rights within the ryu and over all the people who are connected to the ryu. Outside the ryu, and with people who are no part of the ryu it is a different matter.

I fail to see how a sensei, or a soke can exercise any rights over people who by their own (sensei's and soke's) standards do not belong to the ryu.
On the other hand being part of the large world also means you have influence. With this influence come certain rights. The right to be treated with respect and the right to have your integrity as a being (person or ryu) not damaged.

Integrity, honor and good manners is not something we can expect just like that, it is a mutual agreement.

**************
Johan

I understand your point, and you seem to completely understand the integrity issue , so I am curious; What would you think qualifies his rights over intellectual property if that property is taken oustide of the ryu and used or changed?

Sorry if that is not clear
You made a point about influence over someone who no longer belongs to the ryu;
But the material they are using DOES belong to the Ryu.

Put another way a man may take the art and change it but call it the same name , the old X-ha, _________
But if asked not to use it by the family who owns it what do you think the response should be?

This is an age old problem both in Japan and elsewhere.

I was also curious as to why you think one needs to "be a part," embrace the whole wide world- to have influence?
In order to have simple ownership of something don't you simply have to own it-recognition being just another part of the equation?
If they teach in a small venue for little or no money, doesn't the finances and time required to be a global player put an unfair burden on them?

Dan

[johan smits]

Hi Dan,

You have got a point there. More than one actually. Call it Sugino ryu. You can still do the same and everybody's happy. I don't see why not. But then these things are not for me to decide. The best I can do is think about it and debate with other people interested in the subject (and try to escape with both my ears intact).

"Do we as people need these things to tell us when we are doing something wrong?"

Frankly, yes I think we do. This whole debate would be pointless if using the ryu's name was against the law. We all want to be good people so the name wouldn't be used then.

At this moment there is room for a moral dillema.


Your teacher taught you a certain style, your teacher dies and you are told you cannot use the name any longer.
The reason given is that the name is property of a family on the other hand there is no binding law or whatever.
Oh yes, you have been training for some 15 years and you understand there was something of a dispute between your teacher and the teacher of the ryu.

The information availabel is a bit one-sided and you could get the impression that those along the sideline are booing you for not doing what is morally right

When you try to make things clear for yourself you are told not to discuss the matter because you don't belong to a certain group.
Well it is not forbidden but it's bad manners at least.

Loyalty (to ones teacher) is also part of the moral makeup of human beings and loyalty is good I would say.

Respect is a good thing when it is distributed without meassuring by double standards.

Best Regards,

Johan Smits

[johan smits]

Dan,

I am sorry I am at my office right now and the post must have crossed or something.
Have to run now and teach class (don't worry its jujutsu).
I'll get back asap

best regards,

Johan