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Thread: Blocking with katana

  1. #106
    Michael Powell Guest

    Cool

    [FONT=Palatino Linotype][B][I]
    Wm' Beiford made an interesting point reguarding the various stages of developement. That is to say, many Ryu are referred to as secreat yet what I have found, especially sense many Iaido Schools are rooted in Jushin and are thus common Tosa Ha, is that the real secreat is in the subtlitiies of developement and understanding individually. for example when considering Ukenagaishi, Tora Issoke, and like Iaido kata that I have previously mentioned in the context of explaining blocking deflections I also mentioned that many Schools have some variation of this technique but few actuallycomprehend the true dynamics. Many even today don't even understand that the fastest and best Nuki is with the index finger. In Muso Ryu, either ,many even assume the suffix -to in Shoden kata means sword when in fact it means attack! This kind of thing is the bread and butter of many so-called Antiquated and Esoteric studies!

  2. #107
    Michael Powell Guest

    Red face Hyaku Antics

    [FONT=Palatino Linotype][B][I][SIZE=2]

    Another interesting point that Hyaku intuites is that I have yet to see any Japanese Sword that really has a worod for a full block though Mugai Ryu does use one. The general japanese theory is that the best defence is an attack and the best attack is to defend.

    In another context Yagu tought the Iidea of miss by an inch: eggo if you can force the opponet to miss by an inch than an immediate counter should be fatal. Vom Kreig by Clausewitz says the same in a different way: he averred that the greatest casualties in a Battle do not occure during the main engagement but during the defeated armies attempt to retreat....In deed this ins the nature of deflection and flanking waza. A careful read of Go Rin no Senwill concurr as will the Nabeshima Hon.

    Of course sense I concentrate on Iaido one may consider my fortay what the Chinese Schools call floor technique and in fact not so clearly a Samuri style.

  3. #108
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    Default A little input on blocking

    Shindo Munen Ryu Kenjutsu uses several blocking methods however this is a unique one used in Shindo Munen Ryu as well as the tachi no kurai of Muso Shinden Ryu:

    http://www.kendo-bergen.com/images/nh.jpg

    This picture showes Nakayama Hakudo preforming with Hashimoto Toyo Shihan(I believe it to be Hashimoto but I could be wrong). The block allows and immediate perry which allows the Shidachi to immediatly to perry the uke's sword to a neutral position allowing the Shidachi to (with the blade turned parallel to the deck, so the sword can pass through the ribs) tsuki the opponent in the lower or mid ribs. In the tachi no kurai and in Nihonme of Shoden from Shindo Munen Ryu this tecnique is used(and in many kumitachi subsequently after). Fukui Hyoeimon studied Shin Shinkage Ichiden Ryu its self a system based off of Shinkage Ryu and Ichiden Ryu. Shin Shinkage Ichiden Ryu's founder Nonaka Shinzo Naritsune studied under Kamiizumi Ise no Kami I am unsure who he studied Ichiden Ryu under. So Shindo Munen Ryu utalizes several blocks used in Shinkage and Ichiden Ryu methodology. Yagyu Shinkage Ryu uses a block very similar in which after the perry then they tsuki uke in the nodo (throat). Again there are many blocks used but I felt that I could best illustrate to tecnique.

    Just some input
    Jeffrey Karinja

  4. #109
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Almost at the end a small dissertation on the use of the blade. And 8:25 into the video a small discussion on blocking.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZoU2...elated&search=

    So, we have discussed smithing, steel, and the intelligent understanding of the materials used-contrary to pedestrian "wisdom" and even degraded teaching over these many centuries- And finally the many, many, surviving blades with all manner of cuts, and dents in the mune and shinogi. A few of which I posted here. All that is left to do is ...think.

  5. #110
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    Default

    I thought that I would add my experience here also. I have taught and competed in Kendo and European Fencing for the past nearly 20 years and have given this topic much the same thought. What I have found is that sword fighting uses many of the same principals in all styles.

    Some of these same principals are the following. Parries (the blocking of an opponents attack) can be grouped into a few categories. 1 counters attacks 2 distance / timing 3 blade blocks. Kendo favors the first two while fencing favors the first 2 while discouraging them.

    The first 2, counters and distance, will preserve the edge of the blade but open the swordsman to dangers. If he misjudges distance or timing he is simply dead. However, in the words of a sword master in fencing, he said that your first attack and defense should be timing and distance. But, should that fail or if you are planning on a blade block you will need the blade block parry. The blade block parry will give you greater protection but if used over much will give you, by the middle of the battle, nothing more than a large metal club instead of a sword. For this reason in kendo and fencing there is limited blade contact. However, for swords that rely on thrusts this is not much of a concern.

    The parries with the blade are the following, as I teach them to my students a mixture of fencing and kendo. There are 9 numbered parries with 3 variations of each, 4 parries that allow the swordsman to slid a cut or thrust off and away, and 4 that allow the swordsman to bat his opponents blade away, 2 which are specific for the head and one that encompasses specifically the back.

    None of them use the back of the blade specifically. The back may come into use by accident, the "o my heck effect", or the simple change of position as the swordsman rotates through the parries, attack and defense. It should also be noted that sword fighting often happens at such speeds that some parries are favored over others for their speed and efficiency. Using fencing terms, the same actions are in kendo under different names, the parries which are most common are: the thrust parries 4/6/7/8 , the cut parries 3/5 and head cut. From years ago the cut parries 1/2 and saint George were great although I have found use for parry 1 against thrusts in modern matches. The other parries or using the back of the blade look cool in films, slow motion and if well planned. But with an unwilling opponent they are impractical, with the exception of the dangerous but effective, counter attacks, distance and timing. There may also be an argument for parries 1 and 2.

    So, to sum up.

    Counter attacks (avoiding your opponents attack while doing your own attack), distance and timing should be your first attack and defense but are extremely dangerous if mistimed.

    Although there may be a parry that uses specifically the back of the blade I know of none. Any cuts on the back of blades I would not ascribe to blocking with the back, rather to random contact or moving between parries or through parries.

    Lastly, some parries and the use of the back of the blade would simply take too long or too much space with an unwilling opponent. This makes the parries 3,4,5,6,7,8 and head cut the quickest and most broadly applied parries in both kendo and fencing.

  6. #111
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    Default

    Hello Dan,


    I think you gave a great reply and expanded most peoples knowledge on steel.
    Some of the people here may get offended as you are debunking thier favorite myths about something they have been regurgitating for decades.

    I know who you are and if I had the money to buy a custom sword you would be at the top of a very small list of smiths to buy from-most of them American as they mostly don't belive the hype and do the real study on how and why certian steels and heat treatments work so well at certian tasks.

    I started using swords at 17 but made my first one at 14 in my parents bar-b-que(got a beating for that) from an old car leaf spring.
    I got better at smaller blades then finally got Jim Hirsollous's book "The Pattern Welded Blade" in 1994 and learnt so much more.Now there is so much good stuff on the internet as well.

    I think that some of the blades made today are superior to anything that has ever been made.

    Keep up the good work
    John Williams

    p.s. I think 10mm rod steel and brass is easy to cut-I use a 90mm angle grinder with a .9mm thick stainless steel cutting disk at about 10000rpm-the right tool for the job

  7. #112
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    Default one more fly in the ointment

    I have read most of this discussion and really enjoyed the educated responses from the smiths on the reality of steel and how it should behave if used as a sword when made by a competent smith.

    I have an observation to add that may help perpetuate the "myth" of one sword being able to "cut" another in use.

    There is a little parlor trick used by physics teachers(at least when I still went to school).
    A 10 mm(3/8") wooden dowel about 1m(3 feet) is placed on top of crystal glasses,one each on two workbenches.
    A swift strike with a suitable stick to the 10mm rod will snap it cleanly without any damage to the crystal glasses.
    However,a slower strike will cause the rod and the glasses to break.
    This trick is used to highlight "inertia"

    Steel is a known quantity,the harder it gets the more brittle it becomes,making it possible for a short sharp blow to shatter it.

    Now if one person had a blade made by an inferior smith that was too brittle in a particular spot and his opponent happened to strike that spot hard and fast enough it would be possible to snap the blade clean(this has happened to rapiers) giving the impression to observers that the sword has been "cut" by another sword(and the owner of the "cut" sword not long after).

    This could have started such a myth,and as far as the observers are concerned it was "real" so it gains credibility.



    John Williams

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