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Thread: Blocking with katana

  1. #16
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    Again many theories put forward by many Ryu. The word block seems to be a bit inappropriate and a last resort technique. A parry would give one more time to deflect another weapon but ultimately as mentioned the answer to a cut is another cut, not a block. We find this problem in beginners Kendo where people tend to block a strike rather than cut back .

    I keep saying this but nobody listens to me. Perhaps I should get plastic surgery to change the shape of my eyes?

    Invariably blocks or parries should be accompanied by a countering body movement avoiding the cut.

    Also if one has to block or parry one can dismiss it as being ineffective without some form of strong physical counteraction. The classical styles I practice use an edge up method. No time to think, no time to explore the technicalities and no thought of the chance of the blade getting damaged when ones life is at stake!

    It is unlikely that anyone is going to receive a head on ninety degree confrontation. There is bound to be a certain amount of deflection and sliding involved.

    I assume through reading that a lot of (most of?) the people use blades that or not forged in Japan.

    Here in Japan they “are” soft. A lot has been lost over the years not only in the sword techniques but also in the making of blades. But we still bear in mind Hikaku and Jinkaku when we buy one.

    In Tameshigiri circles a bent blade is not uncommon. Even experts make mistakes! The point is to stop cutting if you have one bend which can be taken out. Two (a donkeys hind leg) and you have a rather expensive mistake

    Also ZNKR prefectural groups use specially made Kata swords to take the impact. These too are scarred and gouged beyond recognition after a few demonstrations.

    Hyakutake Colin

    Nippon Todo Renmei

    Hyoho Niten Ichiryu

    Kageryu

    http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword
    Last edited by hyaku; 30th May 2001 at 06:45.

  2. #17
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    Dan

    Perhaps if I could get my hands on a Masamune (Soshu)tachi from the mid 1300s in my hands I would fill comfortable to take full strike on it. Unfortunately I don't believe any survived over the years.

    During the Sengoku Jidai (Age of Wars) there were hundreds of thousands of Katana produced of such poor quality that they would not make good chisels. In fact the training manuel for the ashigaru, the Zohyo Monogatari, allegedly told the common soldier to cut at a opponents legs because the swords issued to them would break easily on armor. Not exactly the kind of blade you'd want to block/clash with another sword while moving, standing or crapping your self in fear.
    Hence just because a katana is 300,400 or 500 years old does indicate it should have been used to block with. Perhaps my earlier point should have stated it a little clearer.

    As far as sticking up for Otake Sensei. He doesn't need my help, but Memorial Day always reminds me of the friends and mentors I lost as a youth. It makes me defensive about the ones I have now.

    Carl McClafferty

  3. #18
    Den Guest

    Default just a thought

    In the JSA I study we block with the Ha, but the more I study the more I realize these are not blocks at all. As has been discribed by others, when properly done, these blocking techniques are either faints or parries. At no time would a swordsman be static. Therefore what looks like a block is usually the precursor to the next aggressive movement, or it is an aggressive movement in itself. I do not believe either combatant would ever stand around long enough to need to block unless in a dire situation.

    One of the real things that is lost when looking at old instruction books or drawings, is an appreciation of the actual movement - the action around a given image.

    -Anthony
    Last edited by Den; 31st May 2001 at 21:30.

  4. #19
    Guest

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    Hi Guys,

    In the two sword traditions I am familiar with blocking with the ha is only done as a last resort. ( The oh @#@#% example described by Richard and Dan ) Most of the blocking / parrying is done with the shinogi or mune.

    Despite all the speculation and mythology I tend towards siding with Dan here. I have seen several old japanese swords used in kumitachi where the parrying was done with the ha. They looked like hacksaws and were virtually ruined. Some even had cracks deep into the ji. Also, the guys at Bugei Trading Co. probably have more realistic experience with abusing swords than anyone I can think of. I saw one sword they put it in a vise and struck full bore on the shinogi and mune with another blade, over and over and over. I also saw a blade they used in blade on blade testing. Cuts into the shinogi for sure but no breakage or even bends in the blade. Given that the swords held up so well struck on the mune and shinogi it is an important thing to consider ....or it says a lot about the superiority of their products durability over most older forged Japanese blades.


    Toby Threadgill

  5. #20
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    Gentlemen,

    In my experience a sword that will break when using the mune or shinogi to parry is an inferior blade. I have personally done extensive testing with Japanese and Japanese style swords. The martensitic edge is brittle, it will notch, chip, and possibly crack when struck with another sword of realitively comparable quality. The mune and shinogi of a properly forged sword will take considerable abuse without cracking or breaking. The edge of the attacking sword will usually cut into the mune and shinogi to some degree however there is not damage that would impair the function of the sword. To take a full cut from another swordsman without a parry of some kind is indicative of a serious mistake in the flow of combat. In my opinion using the edge to block is only done in a desperate circumstance. Even a parry with the blade at an acute angle to the cut will usually damage the edge to some degree. If you were in a situation, such as a battle, where the edge was used numerous times to block with the sword would suffer serious damage to the point where it's cutting ability would be compromised. Your training should entail protecting the asset that you are using to fight with. If you are a boxer it is your hands. Modern military it is your rifle. Ancient Samurai it was your sword. Proper training and ability should allow you to make minimal contact with an opponents sword when engaged. Proper parrying and passing with not only protect your sword but will significantly enhance your chance of victory.

    James Williams
    James Willliams
    Kaicho
    Nami ryu

  6. #21
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    Please excuse the double post.
    Last edited by James Williams; 31st May 2001 at 19:03.
    James Willliams
    Kaicho
    Nami ryu

  7. #22
    GaryH Guest

    Talking Where you wondering "What does Gary Hill think?"? Read on!

    Hi everyone,

    Well, I suppose this issue will never be completely solved as everyone has their own logic for why _their_ way is best.. but it does seem that the "more experienced" (Mr. Threadgill's post about the modern day testing was good to hear) practitioners believe that blocking with the mune/shinogi (sorry if I speeled that wrong is the best way, so that should be a good indicator.

    Personally, since everyone has said that the back of the blade is "softer" and more malable than the ha, I would think blocking with the ha would be the best course of action... let me list my reasons! =)

    1) Mr. Threadgill's post said that the test left cuts in the mune, well, if I was in a battle I wouldn't want a cut in the mune... that would weaken the entire blade. If you made a cut with the main portion of force centered after the cut in the blade, it could easily snap in two. (followed by your demise!)

    2) Again if the mune had a cut in it, and you blocked with any part of the mune that is after the cut, it could (less likely, but still could) break and send that broken piece flying at you.

    3) I wouldn't feel comfortable blocking with the mune.. the ha should be pointed at my opponent, not me.

    4) Bocking with the shinogi makes me feel uneasy as well, since the blade is much thinner sideways and could bend if the attacker put enough force into it.

    That is my logic, chop it up, chew it up, and spit it out =) These are my opinions and my opinions only.

    But to add some illogic to this post, I get a general feeling of safety when I think of blocking with the ha... I haven't even held a sword before but something in my mind nags me when I think of blocking with the mune/shinogi... hehe, maybe when I am in college I will calculate the exact physics involved and answer this questions for everyone! =)

    Sincerely,

    --Gary Hill

  8. #23
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Gary writes
    but it does seem that the "more experienced" practitioners believe that blocking with the mune/shinogi (sorry if I speeled that wrong is the best way, so that should be a good indicator.

    >much snipping<

    I haven't even held a sword before but something in my mind nags me when I think of blocking with the mune/shinogi... hehe, maybe when I am in college I will calculate the exact physics involved and answer this questions for everyone! =)

    *********************


    To be clear
    The more "experienced" do NOT all agree on this issue at all. In cyber land you just heard from several who agree. But there are some very serious men here who play with pointy things who would do not.

    As far as your physics lecture on the sword.........
    The answer to your questions will best be found in metallurgy. Morover, a far better answer will be found, not on draft paper and calculater but in shop, in vise, in the held hands of a practitioner.

    I disagree with your presumption that a soft back will be more prone to breaking then the edge. In fact, I think you are exactly wrong.
    To be clear- the opposite is true.
    The edge will crack, thus leaving you a notched edge that will give an avenue for a stress riser in the next impact. The harder the steel the more prone to a stress fracture upon deflection.
    If I had to bet my life, I would much prefer to have a notch in the shinogi or mune then in the ha.

    In your theoretical scenario;
    We have our intrepid soldier trundled up in his little beetle bug suit stoically marching out to make dozens of edge to edge contacts, or edge to armor contacts, thus completely destroying his edge. I don’t buy that either.

    *****************
    No one has discussed the other issue of Ha blocking. Not only do you have the obvious notching, you will also have entire sections of the blade with a curled edge or scraped off edge.
    Since much of sword work is sliding and deflecting- not dead on blocking; you will have occasion to meet and slide "on edge." This will expose small sections to abrasion. The edges of both blades can curl or be scraped off.
    Your blade will not like it.
    Buy some blades and try it.
    Put it in the vise and continually hit it edge to edge.

    Next
    Since you just destroyed the blades with this stupidity.......
    Buy two more
    put them in the vise

    Continually strike the shinogi and mune of another blade with yours. Check your edge. You will find it is usually still servicable.
    Check the other sword. You will find it is usually servicable as well.

    The results of these tests tell me something.

    Many.... sensei, and all manner of students have told me otherwise. They were wrong then and their wrong now.

    Lets move on........

    While we are on the subject of testing
    Please realize that anything held in a vise behaves differently then that held in the hands.

    IF I could I would send up banners and fireworks with the following statement I would.
    "Lab testing can fail to comform with reality."

    Example: The absorbtion of the force of impact is much greater when the sword is held fixed in a weighted base.
    In reality; the impact force would be less-as the hands absorbed the impact as they moved, and the tip went with the force, as well as being deflected off. So, in the hands it would have to withstand less force.
    A blade surviving impacts in a vise test as quoted by James and Toby is substantial evidence of its strength.
    And further evidence of the "validity" of the use of mune and shinogi.
    Whether or not other ryu do it is not the point and is of no consequence or importance to me.
    It works and works well, regardless of any teachers "opinions" to the contrary

    In fact, the people who have done this testing have arrived at the same conclusions. Anyone else who has opinions on the subject has just that. I have never considered my teachers all knowing, neither are martial art teachers.

    ***************
    Next:
    the theory that Notched edges are stronger than notched backs

    Do you know what a common test is for failure in hardened and shaped steel? To put a notch in it and try to break it.
    Do you know what you do to try to prevent that?
    You round off all inside and outside corners.

    A while back there was some discusion of Aluminum Iaito that broke in the habaki and people wondered why- I waited for someone to state the obvious answer but no one did.

    The answer is that the Ha and mune machi create a perfect venue for a stress fracture. With aluminum being softer and more flexible; the number of fractures is low but the failures are self evident to people experienced in metals.
    The same thing happened to commercial knife manufactures when they began mass producing blades. They would harden the entire thing (mass producton!) from point to tang. THEN CUT OUT NOTCHES FOR THE HANDLE. Results.............snap!

    In the old days (and today among blacksmiths) you had a knife with a hard edge, slightly softer tip, spring tempered body and softer tang. Results............put it in a vise and bend it it will return to straight- pushing you with it.

    *************************

    More nonsense has been written about the sword then I care to shake a stick at.
    Technique is technique and we better listen to our betters
    But steel is steel, and regardless of all the stories, and the teachers opinions, and petals parting in the water.......It behaves as steel.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 2nd June 2001 at 12:49.

  9. #24
    lok Guest

    Default Re: Whoops!

    Originally posted by fifthchamber
    Yeah, sorry about the confusion on the Ha being the harder area area of the blade, my mistake. However the question is still why do so many styles use the Ha to defend?
    I have never seen a technique that uses the rear of the blade (and thinking about it that is probably the best way as the Sori would allow room for 'accidents' I think) But the Ha of a blade is the easiest to damage and so maybe there are techniques out there that do use the Mune. If so does anyone know any of the Ryu or techniques, or have any info on where they could be found?
    Thanks.
    Regarding my very limited Kenjutsu training, the more experienced practitioners consistently used the rear of the Blade/Boguto/Shinai to meet the opposing weapon. I understood this to be standard practice. In fact, I often heard students indicate that Katana marks only on the rear of a blade about an inch or so down from the tip indicated a swordsman of considerable skill...

  10. #25
    Dan Harden Guest

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    I just wanted to add that the type of testing I decribed above was done with old Japanese swords and new ones forged by different folk. I have also done side impact testing against flat bar from dead soft "pure" iron, to 1018 steel to 1095 to my own smelted steel. I also did it with shaped bars (raised shinogi, flat shinogi, flat ground edges, rounded apple seed edges etc...

    I did all this to find out what shape body was the strongest to absorb impact, and what shape edge was the strongest to cut with, and what shape edge was the easiest to cut with.
    Guess what?
    *NONE* OF IT BENT, BROKE, OR WAS RUINED FROM THIS PARTICULAR TEST.
    So if people tell you that swords will always break from being hit on the back or sides, I offer two possible conclusions; the *occasional* sword that did break was a mistake by a smith and was some of the worst steel ever made by man, or........
    it simply isn't true.

    I will say that in bending tests, the Kobuse folded blades were the worse. They sheared at the weld line. They didn't break mind you, they just opened at the weld line.
    Due to the widely different hardnesses and therefore tensile properties; they deformed at different rates, so the stresses were multiplied.
    But even under these extreme stresses they did not break


    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 2nd June 2001 at 15:03.

  11. #26
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    Dan:

    You're smith and I'm just a swordsman . People out there cutting will get the impression from all your writing on this subject that swords won't break on impact. I pretty much quoted the soldier's manuel from when they were really used, not good enough. Many we're playing with words here.

    According to people on the "Sword Forum" Tony Alvarez was doing a cutting demo last year (you'll have to get the pictures from him) with a Paul Chen sword. Not on iron bars, brass rods or cable but on straw mats on wood stands. According to him and everyone at the demo the sword snapped, came apart at the seams, fell apart into two in an instant. To a mere swordsman like me when a swords is in two peices after you cut with it "it broke". It might not have been from the impact but from the torque he was putting on the other end (he's a huge fellow), but the damn thing was allegedly in two peices.

    Would you, as a knowledgeable smith, contact him, look at the pictures and explain what the cause was? Please! That way the impressionable young people 18-35, who read this and don't have 30 years behind a sword, will know what to look for, not do to keep a modern cutting blade from ending up in two peices when they work with it. If you've done that already, how about posting the pictures with a detailed explanation.

    Thanks
    Carl McClafferty

  12. #27
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Double post sorry

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 2nd June 2001 at 19:20.

  13. #28
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Dan
    You're smith and I'm just a swordsman . People out there cutting will get the impression from all your writing on this subject that swords won't break on impact. I pretty much quoted the soldier's manuel from when they were really used, not good enough. Many we're playing with words here.

    *************

    Carl
    I am both a smith and a swordsman, and I never play with words. I can't...... I am one terrible writer :wink:
    I frequently come across as flat and course when I don't mean to be.

    The soldiers manual should be listened to but it should also be qualified for its day and the materials used then VS now. You didn't think to do that, or at least take that into account in your writing when you quoted the record here.
    I did.
    Further, so much "hoo ha" has been written in Japanese accounts "of things past," I would trust independent researchers more than in-house writings in general.
    Most people would as well, that's why we do research

    I hesitate to enter into a dialogue with you because the last time you took it as a slight to one of the finest swordsman alive, which was not my intent, and it bothered me greatly to have you take it that way. I don't know how to get across that I am in no way doubting "the man," instead I am simply questioning old writings.
    For you to think otherwise bothers me. I care about such things.


    To be clear, swords do break, I was arguing the validity of the mune and shinogi as parrying, blocking, areas and their ability to do so and remain intact. That was it!

    When it is drawn back to soft- spring steel it is pretty tough stuff-quite capable of absorbing deflected strikes.
    Even in a Kata form receiving and reversing with hicho-ken or te-ura to strike the mune or shinogi (instead of the body) should not destroy it.

    As for Tony

    Test cutting and getting the sword to turn one way while the cut vector is stressing it in another is a sure way to bend it. But snapping it is highly unlikely and unsual

    This is the version I heard
    Tony wanted a sword in the ridgeless style (hirazukuri) to cut with. Have you ever seen Tony?? I would not have recomended he use that type of sword to begin with. But hey.....who would argue with that guy
    Anyway,
    1. continual test cutting with a ridgeless style blade might have bent it several times and he straightened it. Thus setting up metal fatigue.
    2. Or the torsion of it being vectored through the cut and then hitting the stand while his hips were turned still "in the cut" might have set up two opposing stresses in the blade from the side.

    With a ridgeless style that is inherently weak in that direction anyway; it was always predisposed to failure some time in the future in my humble opinion
    And it did not "come apart at the seams" it snapped. (It was only a matter of time as far as I'm concerned)


    IT BEARS NO REFLECTION ON PAUL CHEN OR BUGEI.

    Hira-zukuri has inherent weaknesses in the design, couple this with a huge man, have him hit the stand after a cut and....viola

    He is having Howard Clark look at it I think, although not much will come of it I believe without extensive testing.



    As for young men dreaming dreams........
    Young people or old; without training should not be playing with swords anyway. One fast way to get hurt in my opinion.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 2nd June 2001 at 23:45.

  14. #29
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    Dan:

    Thanks for your clarification. It was the "words", but probably my reading, not your writing.

    Thanks
    Carl

  15. #30
    Jason Dingledine Guest

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    I'm not attempting to add any more fuel to this fire, but for those that are interested in reading it, here is the address for the "Post Mortum" that was performed on Tony's sword by Keith Larman.


    http://home.earthlink.net/~kdlarman2/break/break.htm

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