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Thread: is emphasis on competition killing judo?

  1. #16
    rsamurai Guest

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    hey fellas, i went over to the karate forum since i used to teach karate before judo. and they are haveing the same disscussion as us in traditional v tourny. thread check it out.

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by rsamurai

    <snip>
    try this go to a local karate school. ask the instructor if he would particiapate in a reasearch prodject.( karate v judo) than have one of his students throw kicks and punches at you, and you defend
    I don't if this direct approach would work very well, but I have had success with individuals, making arrangements to meet outside of class and 'play'.

    With respect to Barry Southam's comment about people making the assumption that judo is 'just a sport', I once had a ninjutsu student make the same comment when I invited him to practice.

    I let that get the better of me, so when a different student from the same club did come to practice, I worked him over pretty good (more than I do most beginners) with just 'sport' techniques.

    Peter
    Peter Claussen

  3. #18
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    Mmmm. I have competied in mixed art competitions with Judoka and Karateka and on the whole Judoka have charged in and won. Jiu Jitsuka ( those who have done a bit of each it has to be said) have done very well, because of their knowledge of the different ranges, especially if they have fought in them before

  4. #19
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    I used to have a judo club which met at a commercial karate dojo. The karate teacher showed me a lot about the business side of running a dojo. I wasn't out to make a profit, but his advice helped us to retain students and pay our share of the rent, etc.

    Whenever a karate student went up against a competitive judoka, it was sure the judoka would win. The karate guys were good a punching and kicking, but they just didn't have the aerobic conditioning to go full out on the mat. On the other hand, it was sometimes tough to get through their punches, etc., but once we got a grip, it was pretty much over.

    My question, though, is self-defense that big an issue? I now enjoy learning more of the techniques and kata, but it is still something to do in the dojo, a study in an ancient art, not on the street. If I really needed it, I have a .38 that beats everyone, hands down, unless they have superior firepower. What's the big deal about "street effective martial arts" anyway. Unless you're a law officer or store security guard who needs to catch and arrest offenders, what the heck are you so worried about that you would need judo for self-defense in this era?

  5. #20
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    Originally posted by Don Cunningham

    My question, though, is self-defense that big an issue? I now enjoy learning more of the techniques and kata, but it is still something to do in the dojo, a study in an ancient art, not on the street. If I really needed it, I have a .38 that beats everyone, hands down, unless they have superior firepower. What's the big deal about "street effective martial arts" anyway. Unless you're a law officer or store security guard who needs to catch and arrest offenders, what the heck are you so worried about that you would need judo for self-defense in this era?
    I've only been in a couple altercations where there was a threat of physical violence, but one comes to mind where knowing judo helped.

    It was at closing time at a local bar, and as people were leaving one larger good-ol'-boy started up with a smaller good-ol'-boy about something that was said. I got in between the two of them and helped break them up.

    I had 'hold of the bigger one, and he looked me right in the eye and said he was going to kick my ass. I didn't really do anything, but I could just see the anger and aggression drain out of his face.

    I didn't realize until later that I had got my favorite judo grip sometime during the tussle, so I was pretty relaxed. I think that being reasonably comfortable in that situation (I had certainly been more scared during judo competitions) helped defuse the situation without violence.

    In the part of the country I live in that's a much more typical self-defense situation than one that would require a gun. I've never had someone pull a gun on me, and I hope I never will, but there have been people more than willing to threaten me with physical violence.

    Peter
    Peter Claussen

  6. #21
    rsamurai Guest

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    i guess my emphasis is just differesnt. i was a bouncer in a bar. and i also train bouncers and provide security at rave partys. competition means nothing to me. i used to be competitor on the a.o.k karate circuit. that was alright. but when i got my butt kicked by a traditional shotokan brown belt. i was a shodan. that is when i found out all the fancy competion moves meant nothing. i was beat by a straight front kick to the groin when my leg was in the air doing a hook kick.( groin contact wasn't allowed so i kicked like i trained)

    when i now study a martial art it is to conect me with a link to the past. when men fought with their hands. not guns. don't get me wrong i am a shooter. i have two exotic weapons.

    but mt problem lies with the judo competition RULES. competition is not fighting. when i fight i want to make sure it works. as far as judo v karate. it depends on the fighters not the art. i was at a seminar where an judo instructor was trying to prove all fights go to the ground. he asked for puncher kicker types. i was voulentered by my jujutsu instructor. the judo instrucctor pit us agianst each other. he than said go, the judoka came in for a grip, i kicked him in the groin. he fell down, they all laughed. the judo instructor than said no punches to the head or kickes to the groin. who do you think won? the judo guy.the rules were stacked against me.it is the rules that hold any martial art back. we have to have them so we don't get hurt but they should at least resemble a real fight. next time in class when you are doing randori throw some punches in the mix. they sell grappling gloves. see how much more difficult it is to get a grip now. now we are getting close to self defense. i really believe with all my heart if we relax some of the rules in competition judo the art will grow faster, more people will watch it and it will be more effective in the self defense arena. self defense judo and competion judo would be just one art instead of two.

  7. #22
    MarkF Guest

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    Richard,
    You are giving an opinion of judo competition while discussing your lack of knowing how to fight with-in the rules of a karate tournament.

    First, Judo and karatedo are as combative as boxing. Boxers learn to fight within the scope of rules, some can take the punishment and some can't. Some would rather take three or four punches to land one of their own, and others are called "dancers" because they don't like to get hit.

    I think you are comparing apples and oranges, tournament-wise, anyway.
    ***

    While it's true judo tournaments are heavily rule-laden today in the larger national and international competition, it says nothing concerning how effective judo would be as a martial art, or what I simply call "judo."

    I've cross-trained with karateka and on both sides there are glaring holes and weaknesses. If it must be practical in all ways, there would be much less participation than there is today. While it's true the crowd likes a bit of blood and gore, that is the same as giving a boxing match to the head-hunter on points as the other fighter was continually pummling the other with body shots. My bet is that the body puncher has done the most damage. Judges like the headhunters, and in judo, the judges like those in constant action. What this does do, is cause a true lack of action, as one doesn't have to have a "a technique has happened (waza-ari)" call or Ippon.

    I have a lot of problems with the rules, and I am a local state ref here.

    But as in any, and I mean any arranged fight, there are rules. Someone has to lose, so a rule is put in which says "one thing must cause the other." When someone has enough, a halt is called, there are usually breaks, even in the parking lot in back of the pub, as SOME things are just not fair, even in a fight "with no rules."

    So in a judo tournament, rules are laid down, and everything (usually) available in a good session of fully-resistant randori is used to their fullest extent. Atemi (or kata ate=kicks) usually are not allowed because the winner is/should not the most important thing. One person on e-budo, in a private message, said that Oyama Mas. called the fighting room "imparting wisdom." Not all atemi is banned, however, in a judo tournament, as atemi is not just hitting and kicking. Throwing someone through the floor, harder so as to cause damage is also atemi. It is also defined as "crashing in."

    Real throws, real pins, and real elbow joint locks (there is some discussion on whether ude garami is manipulating the shoulder joint, but that's a different thread) are used, some able to counter that and score, and most do have a "bag of tricks" which may or may not be against the rules.
    ****

    But just as in judo, you must learn to fight within the rules, as the first thing one learns before his first tournament (or should, anyway) what is considered good waza and what is not, for that tournament.

    Traditional karate teaches that kicks above the waist, or those which take too much time are useless. When I crosstrained, the groin was almost always open, at least with some. As in judo, too, some throws are just not effective most of the time, and turning your back to do a throw in which your back is to your opponent had better be on the good side, as a counter to it, or other types of technique will get you killed (not really, but the guy in the bar could). In other words, good kuzushi is of primary importance whether in shiai or in the parking lot. Losing in a tournament certainly is not as bad as losing "a real fight" but it is good practice, as is experience in winning. Both make you better.
    ****

    And Don's reasons for doing judo/MA are as valid as anyone else's. I've known him for a while, and he has said that from day one.
    ****

    So while I agree with you if you mean there are too many rules, or at least too many nonsensical ones, I agree. To me, if a competitor gets one warning for not being willing to engage, the second time he is out. We all want fighters out there, but with passivity penalties, where are the "counter punchers?" It wasn't unheard of, for a defensive, counter fighter to wait on his opponent, but when you wait, and even when the opportunity is there, and there is no action, then a warning is appropriate. Is this a bad rule? I don't think so, I simply disagree on the penalties for such and the amount of time one has for committing to the fight.

    All budo, koryu through the newest gendai budo, had competition, as that is why they appear so similar to the untrained eye. One lost, and brought back the technique to his ryu as it was effective and learned from it.

    All the crying over "just a sport" doesn't make sense. All those bugei deemed to be sporting are the ones involved most closely to the practical aspect of the art, and those which are done in kata only, are denying the history of the ryu.

    You mean there wasn't any competition in kyujutsu, the art of the bow?

    When you get down to it, it is all judo. There was an article in which a writer of budo said this very thing when the skin is pulled back and the foundation is all that is left, "The judo comes out (a paraphrase from a longer statement with the same outcome)."

    I could have written this with karate substituted as the subject art and it still would have been the same outcome, but I just don't know enough about the subject. If you cross train, and the judoka gets the better of you because he kicked first to the groin, that doesn't mean judo won, it means he found an opening. He was the better fighter since no rule was set forth.

    The suggestion is that most strikers learn some judo, and judoka learn more striking. I'm trying to do that now when time permits, as cross training at the age of twenty (some thirty years ago), is a lot different than actually learning some waza which I may be able to use today.

    If you really give me a problem, I promise to give you everything I've got. But it had better be in thirty seconds or less 'cause that is just about what I've got left.

    Mark

    BTW: Don, as to your puny thirty-eight, my SA longcolt .45 will put a much bigger whole in you, and if that isn't enough, a Thompson Repeater will put both to shame. Glad to see you back.

  8. #23
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    I'm not suggesting that self-defense training in judo or any other martial art is not valid, it just seems rather dubious to me and I was curious why others are that interested. I also agree that karate and other striking arts are very efficient, but in my personal experience, I've found most are not training for physical endurance and focusing on techniques. When on the mat, it's the one in the best physical conditioning that will win.

    Personally, I would train in gymnastics if I wanted to be prepared for a physical confrontation. Have you seen the conditioning of those guys on the hanging ring things or the women who do parallel bars?

    Where I live, a physical confrontation with any of the gang bangers would most likely result in facing a 9mm in the hands of some teenager. No amount of martial arts training is going to help after the weapons come out, although awareness and philosophical experience may help prevent it from happening in the first place. Unless you're a bouncer (security guard) or policeman, why would anyone want to get physical with someone like that?

    Mark: I used to be in favor of automatics until my Walther 380 jammed when I most needed it. After re-reading some of posts in this thread, it appears I've rambled a bit more than I intended. I have been taking some pain medication. My only excuse is that it seemed to make more sense when I wrote some of the previous stuff than it does now that I am a bit more lucid. I think my points are still valid, just not too clear.
    Last edited by Don Cunningham; 11th June 2001 at 14:16.

  9. #24
    rsamurai Guest

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    am not trying to say is judo effective in a real fight. or competition is bad. it is all the rules in competition. in my opinion ,competition judo has been so far removed from fighting that it dosn't even remotely resemble fighting. bjj is closer to fighting than judo. id like to see judo rules closer to sport jujutsu rules. and i am not sure. but it seems every time i post i am anti competition. this is not true. all the dojo's i have been to all stress competition. self defense isn't even taught. all an saying is teach selfdefense along with competition. self defense tactics are different than competition. karate sparing is different than self defense. but every karate school i have been to all teach self defense along side competition. just because you are good at competition that dosen't mean you know self defense. the mind set is different. the techniques are different. and you are correct never give your back to an attacker unless you have incapacited him first. i mostly use ostogari.

    btw. my mac10, and uzei model b pumps out more rounds than your .45 and the are cooler!
    lol

  10. #25
    MarkF Guest

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    Richard,
    Since I obviously was not clear enough in my post, just what "judo rules" don't you like? You refer to "sport" this, and "rules" that, but you are not specific enough to simply state in effect "judo rules make judo bad." What specifically in the rules makes judo so lacking?

    Don is correct, SD is an unnecessary component of learning martial arts. The best you'll ever get is a slight advantage, no matter whether SD is stressed or not. The Kodokan Goshin jutsu system is made for defense against modern weapons or empty-handed attacks and kime no kata is specifically a SD kata, thought it is more likely to be practiced for the reasons Don states. The koshigi no kata is also self-defense, but meant originally to be done while wearing armor.

    It's there, what is the need to specifically call it self-defense?

    If it is not there, why do people feel the need to include judo in their studies who have all ready put in ten or more years into koryu or anything else?

    Ippon called, the match is over. Why? Because it is a symbolic victory over the attacker, in this case uke, and in the real world, I don't see many getting up who are thrown through the concrete, but should that even be a consideration?

    There is nothing wrong in judo the sport. BJJ I won't discuss because it is not a Japanese martial art. It doesn't represent anything in Japan, and finally, the Gracies have a copyright on their jiujitsu. All grappling tournaments have rules, so again, what is the specific rule or rules you do not like?

    Judo is not just randori. It has kata, kata which may be practiced, and striking techniques, kicks, etc., which are only practiced in kata. Since you do not like sparring, I assume you do like to practice kata. If it is a weapons system, there is defense of the sword, stick (jo), knife, and gun.

    Well, life is filled with rules, and though I don't like the newer rules of the IJF, it isn't something I have to follow, either. Go to the IJF website and it is pretty much up front in its statement that their rules are only recommended, no one has to follow them.

    So again, I ask, what is the "judo rule" you don't like, why, and how do they make it any worse, or better?

    Judo is full contact. What more do you want?

    Disclaimer: I don't like most of the rules instituted since 1988, including weight classes, or at least those which are so close as to take the principle of judo out of the shiai. I'd rather do judo as it was when I began training thirty-eight years ago. Still, the fact is that judo, karatedo, and other competition are impossible without some kind of rule of fair play. Self-defense has no stake in tournament play because of the level of self-defense against another of approximate equal skill is obvious. Still, it IS there and it IS taught.
    *****

    That said, I still would like to know what it is specifically in the rules of judo competition which could improve, aside from my disclaimer which would improve the quality of shiai. Too many rules? Certainly. No rules? Chaos. Even with all the updated rules of shiai, there are injuries which are permanent, some which are not, and all because judo is a combative sport, similar to boxing and freestyle wrestling, and at the same time, is meant to do so in a relatively safe manner, so as to be able to train every day if one so chooses. This is simply keeping up with a changing world.

    And again, there IS nothing wrong with studying a martial art, as it was originally planned, even without the self-defense seemingly so necessary. Ask the koryu people if the bokken or sword they hold is practical today. OK, well, sticks are a modern tool of fighting, so I'll just leave it at the swords.

    Still, when someone complains about "watered down" judo, "judo is not the same since it was included in the Olympic Games of 1964 (not really true, but that is just a formality), and my favorite "judo is just martial sport." The problem is not in the statements themselves, but it simply is avoided instead of really stating what the problem is.

    The really funny thing is, that when I first started training, the lessons were on kyusho. I haven't forgotten that, either. And, oh yes, this was judo.

    Mark

  11. #26
    rsamurai Guest

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    i love sparring, i don't know why you think i don't. actualy i dislike kata, because it is so unrealistic. the goshin jutsu kata needs to be modified in order to be effective. espically the gun defense. 3lb trggerpull and the first two techniques will get you shot.no one throws an uppercut like that, and you don't hold a jo that way.but it does teach you concepts. but the rules of judo i dislike are the ones that seem to take judo the furtheest away from fighting. they are the ones concering grips, false attack, forceing me to be the aggressor, when i rather have you commit to the attack, than your are off balance. hands in the face. or manipulating the head. and i don't understand why you can't lock some of the other joints. don't give me the safty issue. tomiki akido locks wrists, jujutsu locks everything and there are no more injurys in thoses arts than judo. the reason i study judo is to make my jujutsu better. more emphasis on throws. but in competition i do understand you have to have rules. but my god why so many. now i can't comment about your dojo, but all the ones i have been to don't even teach atemi or sd. if this is part of judo why isn't it taught. just because you can win a shiai dosn't mean you know how to fight in real life. yes you have an edge but if the other guy knows an art also? most judoka i have met, unless they cross train in aother art, can't even punch.

    if judo is the only art you ever studied than it is hard to explain some of my frustrations. but in 22 years of martial arts with black belts in point karate, shotokan, kempo and jujutsu and as of 3 weeks ago judo i believe i have the experience to see some of the downfalls in thoses arts. this year a the houston open (my dojo is one of the sponsers) we will have one mat for a grappling tournament, were theules of shiai will be changed. lets see if this is sucessful. it should be more exciting to watch and will allow the players to showcase more of their skills.

  12. #27
    Stephenjudoka Guest

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    I have many books on Judo, some are about Judo self defence and some are about Judo competition.
    In my opinion it is all basically the same.
    Obviously competition Judo has rules (Mainly for safety but also to make it more watchable) Judo for self defence does not have rules (You can kick,punch etc) however the end result is the same - You throw your opponent/attacker to the ground and they are finished off.

    What I do think you learn from studing Judo as a sport or pastime is:-
    You learn how people's bodies move, you learn good balance, you learn to watch for attack clues, you learn how to bend or lock an arm and finally it makes you fit and fast for any encounter whether it be sport or an attack.

    Judo on its own is not the best self defence but it is a good place to start.

    Stephen Sweetlove
    The older I get the better I was.

  13. #28
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    Originally posted by Stephenjudoka

    <snip>

    What I do think you learn from studing Judo as a sport or pastime is:-
    You learn how people's bodies move, you learn good balance, you learn to watch for attack clues, you learn how to bend or lock an arm and finally it makes you fit and fast for any encounter whether it be sport or an attack.

    <snip>
    Which is precisely why there are a lot of current and former high school wrestlers that I wouldn't want to fight with. They may not have studied 'self defense', but the skills Stephen just described make them very formidable opponents.

    And I have tangled with a few in judo practice.

    It's not the waza that define self-defense, it's the application.

    Richard, I think you limit human ability too much. Just because a person chooses to operate under the rules of competition while in a match does not imply that the person cannot discard those rules when circumstances warrant.

    There have been many occasions in randori or shiai that I've made a conscious decision to not perform a specific move, because the move violates the spirit of randori. This is no different than when I've made a conscious decision not to apply a move to someone very much my junior in rank, because, as instructor I don't think it proper to pull out all my tricks when working with beginners. I try to do randori at their level.

    But that certainly hasn't limited my ability to apply those same techniques when playing against a more skilled student. So I like to think I could use some of the nastier techniques, if circumstances require it.

    You should have probably selected a different title for this thread, since you ask "is the emphasis on competition killing judo', while your argument seems to be that "the emphasis in competitions is killing judo" (that is, the emphasis in the rules applied to competitions).

    Peter
    Peter Claussen

  14. #29
    rsamurai Guest

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    Originally posted by dakotajudo



    You should have probably selected a different title for this thread, since you ask "is the emphasis on competition killing judo', while your argument seems to be that "the emphasis in competitions is killing judo" (that is, the emphasis in the rules applied to competitions).

    Peter
    peter, it is funny that you wrote that. i was thinking about that today. you are correct. it should read," the emphasis in competitions is killing judo". when the emphasis is on competition than you train just for competition. and you will fight on the street the way you train. the rules in competition have gone to far in order to make judo more popular.my argument is to loosen some of the rules, such as the grips. that one really burns me. it should not matter how or where you grip.and some of the scoreing is difficult. on the judo-l this is a big problem for some of the old timers in the art. lol. they get confused about the scoring. if i was king of judo. my rules would be simple. grab and throw, you can lock shoulders and elbows or win by submission. maybe even give points for a reversal like wrestling. i would just let the fighters fight. no negartive judo, no false starts. put some of the "tricks" back into judo. it used to be there. let us remember the rules we have now are limiting the techniques we had before. i was reading somewhere, the rules for shiai that kano devised were much more combat oriented than now. why can't we go back to those rules. that is when judo spread like wildfire. judo has become stagnate or we wouldn't be trying to make more rules for it to become more exciting. correct?
    who are we to change what a founder devised in anything. sometimes people invent things a certain way because thats the way they wanted it. its our own aragonce that tells us , no this is the way it should be. we know better than the founder. just my opinon. again i look forward to everyones post.

  15. #30
    MarkF Guest

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    Hi, Richard,
    Now we are getting somewhere. As Stephen alluded to, the problem isn't judo, it is in tournament rules. If you want and need instruction in goshin jutsu or atemi, you need to ask. If the teacher can't help, find another teacher.

    So the problem you find is in the major international events, or those which strictly follow those of the IJF/IOC. I have complained about that for a long time. There ARE too many rules. Still, if we rid the mat of every rule, you might want to think of NHB (sorry, they have rules, too).

    But believe me, judo, with or without rules, does teach self-defense. But this is a personal matter, and not what you might think. People ask or think this question all the time: "What would you do if..." In my experience that is something you'll know when the event is over, not before. Someone wrote in a thread that he tried to stop a fight, and hadn't even realized what he had done to stop it.

    This is true no matter what the fighting skill and training.

    So you don't like the rules of IJF shiai, but like judo? I rest my case.

    BTW: There are more injuries in judo than any other MA. I would have to dig to get the exact figures, but most injuries are in the sprain, strain categories, not to mention broken bones. Also, ude garami does manipulate the shoulder joint more than the elbow, but the point IS to work on the elbow, so it doesn't matter if one taps out from shoulder pain or elbow pain.

    I would suggest, though some reading material to get a feel for why some techniques are only practiced in kata, which ones, and whether or not it carries the same importance. Don't forget, randori is actually called "Randori no kata" which included the nage no kata and gatame no kata, not to mention shime waza and kansetsuwaza.

    The point is not that these kata were "removed," it was only to move into the modern world. Many koryu jujutsu participated in the Kodokan's early days.

    Karate has all the probelms you say judo has. Kick at me (generic me) and I'm going to quickly crash in on you grabbing the kicking leg and sweeping the supporting leg out from under you (also banned in competition. The sweeping of any supporting leg at any time), and drop a knee on your groin, or I will kick there. This is taught and studied by many judoka, as that is the reason it is banned. Throw a back kick or punch at me and it will be the same move only standing. If I can make you miss by an inch, or take something off the punch you throw, I'm all over you and you've just lost the space you need to work. Kick me high, and you leave yourself wide open.

    That said, these are only possiblities, and likely never to happen in reality, unless one is put in the position of having to defend.

    Oh, and the joint locks of the classical jujutsu schools, most do not partake of randori and uke generally does what an uke is supposed to do. That doesn't make it nearly as practical, but so what? Why is it that self defense must be the *be all* and *end all* of a martial art? Like you, many do so for many different reasons, so if you haven't bought any books on judo, get Kodokan Judo by Jigoro Kano for starters. Other books can be investigated here . The reviews are really good and the history section on the website is just great.

    On a closing note, after managing to put certain techniques into kata instead of randori, why the warning from Kano of bad budo if one were to use it outside of the dojo? Did we miss something here?

    Anyway, no harm done. I know the rules of modern judo are not helping much, but not all changes were bad. The blue dogi was meant to make it easier to watch, mainly on television, but it had another advantage, too. It dropped the referee error rate some and that is always good. The idea of forcing the fighters to fight is based on good theory, but it actually stunted a lot of growth in judo. Some judoka refuse to even get into groundwork during matches, even when one had the advantage.

    Nothing wrong with judo, and the founder saw the problems and commented on it himself, about the muscling in nage waza, and a lack of good teachers. Name something which doesn't have problems in both of these categories.

    Mark

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