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Thread: Yamanne-Ryu

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    Default Yamanni ryu Reply to ANDREAS

    Hello Andreas, my names is Shaz and we have spoken before on Yamanni Chinnen ryu subject matter. I would be happy to clear up more of your questions. First and foremost, many people such as Shuguro Nakazato and Higa Seitoku studied with Masami Chinen. I cannot comment on their abilities because I haven't seen either of them move. Kishaba Chogi sensei studied under Masami Chinen for about 28 years. His abilities were and are recognized and documented by Masami Chinen, the Prefectural Government of Okinawa and still by the Chinen family. Chinen Teruo sensei of Goju-ryu (Grandson to Masami Chinen who didn't learn Yamanni Ryu) as well as many others such as Morio Higoanna recognize and remember him and his involovement with not only Masami Chinen but Chojun Miyagi. As far as what katas he learned..they are suuji no kun sho, suuji no kun dai, sakagawa no kun, shirataru, tomari shirataru, yunegawa, sunakake, and chikin/tsuken bo....they are listed on Oshiro Sensei's website. They are all from Masami Chinen and codified by his grandfather Sanda Chinen. This was an art practiced by the ryukyu nobles and although some practicioners who may not have grasped the art, combined it with farmer style techniques, Masami Chinen and his student Kishaba Chogi have not. Many people have trained with Kishaba Sensei. However, his two highest ranking Shihans are Nishime sensei and Oshiro sensei. They are both my teachers and are arguably at their highest levels in my personal opinion. Sensei Oshiro and Sensei Nishime are not only talented karate Instructors, their Bojutsu is almost magically powerful and fast. Both teachers teach this art and its unusual body mechanics in a very traditional sense. However, they introduce it at many tournaments in hopes people will embrace it as a way to better understand body mechanics in general. The modification of kata is because without this beginning method, it would be far too difficult to teach and show this art to a lot of people. ...so they created basic kihon kata with Kishaba Sensei's approval wich help develop the concepts many students need to understand the traditional kata. The modified kata are basic..his video released from dragon tsunami shows the basic modified kata.However, to reach the highest levels of Yamanni-Chinen ryu you will find yourself discarding the modified versions and only practicing the traditional version. On Oshiro sensei's website www.oshirodojo.com..he discusses this further in an interview. I hope this helps
    regards Shaz DSouza RBKD

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    Dear Shaz, thanks for your time and energy. As you know from our previous communication, I am not a believer and I am very sceptical, not in regards to technique, but rather to recognized lineages. I have great appreciation for those maintaing a tradition as well as for those developing and upgrading it. And I am also impressed by the many great technicians in martial arts.
    I however find hard to believe the tohuwabohu of incoherent details in the claims being made within Chinen Yamanni-ryu, especially the direct transmission of more than two or three Kata from Chinen Masami to Kishaba Chgi. But in any case, if there is any proof for this, I would be happy to be corrected. So let me point to a few things.

    First and foremost, many people such as Shuguro Nakazato and Higa Seitoku studied with Masami Chinen.
    It is recorded that Higa Seitoku in 1956 started training with Chinen Masami and recieved Shihan Menkyo from him in 1960 ((*1, p. 725) (昭和35年 山根流棒術師範免許状授与さる。 ) A Shihan Menkyo is an official document and as it was issued personally by Masami Chinen I think this is a most proper recognition. Higa's Yamane-ryu may bear his personal handwriting. But as he recieved his Shihan Menkyo in 1960 it shows that a technical skill has been fixed at that time; thus it would be an opportunity to compare with the more modern claims having been made.

    It is also recorded that Akamine Eisuke studied Yamane-ryū Bjutsu from Higa Seiichiro since 1948 and Higa Seiichiro, Higa Raisuke and Akamine Yhei (all students of Chinen Sanda, Masami's grandfather) have also been recorded as consultants of RKHSK as of 1977 (*1), and Masami Masami was also a consultant (*2).

    I have more Japanese language accounts stating the same and they are all from around 1977 and afterwards and after Chinen Masami's death. I prefer those accounts as they are older and they describe the settings of the time. This can't just be ignored by saying "we have something secret" or so, because, as Chinen Masami gave a diploma, it is obvious that there never was secret and that others would have gained one, too, if there was reason to do so.

    Kishaba Chogi sensei studied under Masami Chinen for about 28 years. His abilities were and are recognized and documented by Masami Chinen, the Prefectural Government of Okinawa and still by the Chinen family. Chinen Teruo sensei of Goju-ryu (Grandson to Masami Chinen who didn't learn Yamanni Ryu) as well as many others such as Morio Higoanna recognize and remember him and his involovement with not only Masami Chinen but Chojun Miyagi.
    I am pretty sure they all know all each other. E.g., Tamayose Hidemi of Ryukyu Kobudo Tesshinkan remembers Oshiro as a school mate. Higa Seitoku has recieved an official diploma after 4 years of training (see above). If Kishaba Chgi - who maybe studied under Masami Chinen in whatever meaning you may interpret "study" - should have such a written diploma it may be allowed to ask for it's existance and what it states (Shihan Menkyo, or Menj etc.). Also there are maybe more hints on such a diploma, like "the person learned Bjutsu for a long time" or "... reached this or that level" etc. It should be in your mind to provide such an information, if it exists (as Miyagi Chjun did not give our diploma or ranks, it would also be intersting to know how long Kishaba trained under him, if he continued training with others).

    As for the recognition of the Prefectural Government of Okinawa; I wans't able to find one until now. Maybe you were talking about the Bjutsu Kata which Kishaba developed at request of his towns branch of Okinawa Board of Education and made into a video (and the Kata later was designated "not working" and thus being upgraded with other templates, i.e. parts of other Kata)? At least the dj list with some 400 entries provided by the Okinawa Board of Education, which is part of the Prefectural Government of Okinawa, shows two entries which are in connection with "Kishaba Bjutsu" schools (*3):

    #1
    Name of Association or branch: Okinawa Karate-d Matsubayashi-ry 沖縄空手道松林流
    Dj name: Kishaba-juku (Kishaba Private school) 喜舎場塾
    Name of representative: Shinzato Katsuhiko 新里勝彦
    Location: Yonabaru 〒901-1302 与那原町字上与那原301
    Genre: Karate-d and Kobud 空手道・古武道
    Training days: Tuesday and Friday, 21:00-23:00: 火・金:21:00-23:00
    Training subject: 18 Kata of Matsubayashi-ry (Shuri-te, Tomari-te) and Kobujutsu (B and Sai) 松林流(首里手、泊手)18の型、古武術(棒・サイ )

    Added: The Kishaba-juku has six schools in USA.

    #2
    Name of Association or branch: Okinawa Shgen-ry Karate-d Kykai 沖縄松源流空手道協会
    Dj name: Tamaki Karate Dj 玉城空手道場
    Name of representative: Tamaki G 玉城剛
    Location: Matsuyama in Naha-city 〒900-0032 那覇市松山2-22-1-410
    Genre: Karate-d and Kobud空手道・古武道
    Training days and subject: Mondays and Fridays, Juniors 19:15-20:30, adults 21:00-22:30. Wednesdays Yamane Kishaba-ry Bjutsu 21:00-22:30. 月・金:少年部19:15~20:30 一般部:21:00~22:30 水:山根喜舎場流棒術 21:00~22:30

    Added: Tamaki G was/is board chairman of the Nagamine Dj and can be seen performing a great Shiromatsu no Kun on the Shidokan website. One can clearly see the development of the Kata since the 1960's, which we know from some video.

    As far as what katas he learned..they are suuji no kun sho, suuji no kun dai, sakagawa no kun, shirataru, tomari shirataru, yunegawa, sunakake, and chikin/tsuken bo....they are listed on Oshiro Sensei's website. They are all from Masami Chinen and codified by his grandfather Sanda Chinen.
    I do not agree with the Kata all can be traced back to Chinen Masami or even Chinen Sanda. I am quite confident that Kishaba learned a bit, say Shuuji and Sakugawa, and afterwrdas with Oshiro et.al. developed most of the new "old" Kata using the templates existing on Okinawa at the time and their own ideas of what they should look like, and that's ok with me. The tracing back to Ryukyu kingdom times is an artificial construction and stating that they were the original form stemming from Chinen Masami or even Sanda via Kishaba is simply unbelievable to me. I also bet that much of the used templates came from Kyan Shin'ei, one more person from Nagamine Dj.

    This was an art practiced by the ryukyu nobles and although some practicioners who may not have grasped the art, combined it with farmer style techniques, Masami Chinen and his student Kishaba Chogi have not.
    Shimajiri no Kun was a "farmer art" and it was made by Chinen Masami. What has happened to this Kata? Has it been given a new "old" name and re-dated to Ryky kingdom times?

    "Yamanni Ryu, the most aristocratic of the Okinawan weapon arts, has in the past been taught exclusively to the most dedicated martial artists, and then only by direct transmission, master to student."
    (*4)
    It is clearly not "the most aristocratic of the Okinawan weapon arts." Concerning aristocracy, it was at best medium.

    BTW, was Kishaba Chgi the board chairman of a nursing home for the elderly (ygo rjinhmu) founded 1992 as the social welfare corporation of Kyukai (77th birthday association)?

    In any case: Kishaba was/is a much respected B-master. But the lineage question, the open diploma question, the upgrading Kata taken from different sources while at the same time claiming it is the true original art handed down only from Chinan Sanda via Chinen Masami to Kishaba Chgi, is hard to believe.
    After all, I think the naming as "Yamane Kishaba-ry Bjutsu", as Tomaki G does it, is a more accurate way of naming this tradition. I think this adequately describes the method of upgrading, which is good and which is what I think Yamanni-ry really means here. Then, it should however not be re-dated.

    *1: Uechi Kanei (supervision): Saisetsu Okinawa Karate-d. Sono Rekishi to Gih. Uechi-ryu Karate-d Kykai, 1977. p.707, 709
    *2: Taira Shinken: Shinpen Zho Ryky Kobud Taikan. Editor: Inoue Kish. Commentary: Miyagi Tokumasa. Yju Shorin, (Ginowan, Okinawa) 1997. ISBN 4-947667-42-7, p32-34.
    *3: Okinawa Karate and Kobud Dj List. Executive Committee of 2003 Okinawa Karate and Kobud Sekai Taikai. Okinawa Prefectural Board of Education. 沖縄空手道古武道道場一覧. 2003沖縄空手道古武道世界大会.)実行委員会. 沖縄県教育委員会.
    *4: Text from the back of Video cover of "Yamanni Ryu. Okinawan Bo-jutsu" (Dragon Times 1996).

    Cheers
    Last edited by Shikiyanaka; 19th March 2006 at 14:36.
    Best regards

    Andreas Quast

    We are Pope!

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    Default Okinawa Hombu Site

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Daulton
    Paul,
    Rather than going in to a great deal of exposition here, I'll point you at some readily available resources ... <ul><li><a href="http://www.ryukyu-kobudo.org">Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai - US Honbu</a><br> Taira --> Akamine --> Dometrich Lineage <br><br><li><a href="http://www.rkagb.com">Ryukyu Kobujutsu Hozon Shinkokai - UK Honbu</a><br>Taira --> Inoue --> Mead Lineage</ul> As mentioned in my previous post, the system was compiled by Taira Shinken. After his death, the school split into two camps. These two websites represent the two foremost Western components of each of the respective camps.

    Both websites contain biographies on the primary teachers of the art. In addition to these websites, I've also recently been fortunate to have a biography of Taira Sensei published in the latest edition of Dragon Times.
    You may also want to have a look at www.ryukyu-kobudo.com It is the site that Emile vanHeerden is maintaining for Akamine Hiroshi the Third President of the Association. We also have some good content and have access to some of the people that have a little less contact with the west and may not be as well know.
    Yours in budo.

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    For another perspective, why not ask McCarthy Sensei. He is Yamaneryu
    through Oshiro Chojo. http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/new_video_release.htm

    I'm sure he would be happy to answer any questions regarding his lineage.

    Peace.
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

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    Smile Yamane Ryu

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyuck3X
    For another perspective, why not ask McCarthy Sensei. He is Yamaneryu through Oshiro Chojo. http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/new_video_release.htm

    I'm sure he would be happy to answer any questions regarding his lineage.

    Peace.
    Folks,

    How can I be of help?

    Andreas, very nice to see you here and great training with you in Germany, too. Read your comments, and, as always, very well researched and presented. My compliments to you.

    Shaz: Are you the student of Mr. Oshiro [with the same name] who wrote the very rude e-mail to me in 2002?
    Patrick McCarthy
    International Ryukyu Karate-jutsu Research Society
    http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy
    Folks,

    How can I be of help?
    I'd like to hear your perspective on the history of Yamane Ryu, especially as it relates to Chogi Kishaba.


    Shaz: Are you the student of Mr. Oshiro [with the same name] who wrote the very rude e-mail to me in 2002?
    If you're talking about Toshihiro Oshiro, I'd be astonished if he was computer adept enough in 2002 to send you any emails, let alone a rude one.
    Now, a fax on the other hand....

    Rob

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    For what it's worth, I just officiated at a karate/ryukyu kobudo tournament yesterday. A Shorinkan group from Chico was there and some of their students did "Yamane no Shuji no kon". The kata is virtually identical to the Shuji no kon that I learned in the RBKD, under Toshihiro Oshiro.


    Rob

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    Default Sensei McCarthy

    Hello Sensei McCarthy, I'm not sure I understand your post. I have never sent you an e-mail let a lone a rude one. I have actually gone so far as stating somewhere on a post on this site, e-budo.com that I had heard some nice things about you and respect what you have done for Okinawan Koryu. Past that, I try to engage in as much educated discussion as I can. I am not an authority on any martial art let a lone Yamanni Ryu...I can only talk about what it is I know. As far as politics, I try to give everyone a fair shake and stay out of politics...if there is anything you would like to know about me..feel free to ask me...Thanks again...regards Shaz Dsouza RBKD

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    Smile Yamane Ryu

    Dear Rob san,

    Sorry for the delay in responding.

    Kishaba Chogi
    As nothing that I know of appears about Kishaba Chogi in traditional Japanese sources [other than the testimony written by his own students---principally that written by Oshiro Toshihiro, a mention in an Uechi Ryu publication, and a little in a new publication by Hokama Tetsuhiro, recently translated into English by my friend Joe Swift] I am afraid that my knowledge of the gentleman is rather limited. TTBOMK, English sources describe Kishaba Chogi as the most visible student of Chinen Masami. Of course, as you already know Mr. Kishaba's most visible students are Nishime Kiyoshi, Prof. Shinzato, and your own teacher, Oshiro Toshihiro. I'm sure that there must be a few others, too.

    While I have only ever met him briefly in Okinawa, along with Prof Shinzato, one of my friends [Katherine Lokolopolous] knew him fairly well back in the 1980's, and one of my American-based kobudo students [Mike Rosati of NYC] trained with Kishaba Chogi privately for five days back in 1990, when he and Prof. Shinzato visited the USA. They all [Oshiro, Nishime, Minakami, Miyazaki & Rosati] later drive out to Reno together where Mike also underwent a three-day Kishaba-ha Yamane Ryu seminar. I also understand that Chogi Sensei was a karate student under Miyagi Chojun while his brother, Chokei, studied under Nagamine Shoshin. I have watched him perform bojutsu and have a video of him, too, and I was very impressed by his skill, especially for his age. Actually, his smooth and elegant movement reminded of my own teacher when he was younger; he's now 87. The following is what I know about Chinen Masami.

    Chinen Masami [16 October 1898-1978]
    Chinen Sanda, the founder of Yamane Ryu [also spelt Yamanni Ryu] passed away in 1928 [although other sources suggest 1922] at the age of 82 leaving behind him the following students [that I know of]; Kohinda Saburo, Gibo Kamado, Gusukuma Rio, Nakasone Seiyu, Yabiku Moden, Higa Raisuke, Higa Seiichiro, Higa Ginsaburo, Akamine Yohei, Chinen/Chitose Tsuyoshi [the nephew of Chinen Sanda], Maeshiro Chotoku, Oshiro (Ogusuku) Chojo (1887-1935), widely regarded as his most prominent disciple, and his own grandson, Masami, who was quite well known for his Sakugawa bo. According to Japanese sources [Miyagi Tokumasa, Hokama Tetsuhiro, Kinjo Akio, Kinjo Hiroshi, Fujiwara Ryozo, etc.] Higa Seitoku [Bugeikan] and Nakazato Shugoro trace their lineages to Chinen Masami, even though their technique would seem to prove otherwise. Nakamoto Masahiro [Tori Hori Bunbukan] also studied under Maeshiro Chotoku [a student of Oshiro Chojo], as did Tokuyama Seiken [who also studied with Oshiro Chojo, if only for a short time], the grandfather of Hokama Tetsuhiro. Kyan Shin'ei [of Awase village, and well known amongst Nagamine Shoshin's group, as were the Kishaba brothers] also learned bo-jutsu under Oshiro Chojo and Ufuchiku-sai-jutsu under Kina Shosei. Historically speaking one might even argue that Yabiku Moden/Taira Shinken and Matayoshi bojutsu trace their roots back to Yamaneryu, too. TTBOMK, Higa was the only one certified by Masami Sensei to teach his interpretation of his grandfather's style. Of course, that certainly dosn't mean that he didn't receive permission to teach---obviously, he must have--- it just means that I cannot locate any historical documentation of it. My own teacher, Kinjo Hiroshi, is well known for having studied under Hanashiro Chomo, Gusukuma Shimpan, Tokuda Ambun and Oshiro Chojo but has no "official" licence either.

    Chinen Masami Karate
    As for karate, TTBOMK, Chinen Masami began his training in at ten years old while in the sixth grade under Gusukuma Shimpan. Three years later he started training with Hanashiro Chomo. In 1914 Masami sensei learned sanchin directly under Higaonna Kanryo [citing Hokama Tetsuhiro]. His training with Chinen Sanda included the cudgel method of Sakugawa Kanga, the Sunakake method of Tsuken, and the three Chinen-based forms Shuji, Shirotaru and Yonekawa [the later he favored with his left hand] developed by his grandfather.

    I have a little more historically based writing here http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/new_video_release.htm with a few photos, too. There are a few more photos here http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/Oshiro-ha%20Kobudo.htm but they're mostly about my own Yamane Ryu lineage.

    Dear Shaz san,

    Thanks for responding to my query and the clarification. Nice to meet you. If you'd like to contact me off line, I'd be more than happy to send you the e-mails in question.

    Kind regards to you both
    Patrick McCarthy
    International Ryukyu Karate-jutsu Research Society
    http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com

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    Pat San!

    Thanks for the reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy
    Dear Rob san,

    Sorry for the delay in responding.

    Kishaba Chogi
    As nothing that I know of appears about Kishaba Chogi in traditional Japanese sources [other than the testimony written by his own students---principally that written by Oshiro Toshihiro, a mention in an Uechi Ryu publication, and a little in a new publication by Hokama Tetsuhiro, recently translated into English by my friend Joe Swift] I am afraid that my knowledge of the gentleman is rather limited. TTBOMK, English sources describe Kishaba Chogi as the most visible student of Chinen Masami. Of course, as you already know Mr. Kishaba's most visible students are Nishime Kiyoshi, Prof. Shinzato, and your own teacher, Oshiro Toshihiro. I'm sure that there must be a few others, too.
    I believe we have a mutual acquaintance, George Donohue, who is a student of Chogi Kishaba and Prof. Shinzato.

    I also understand that Chogi Sensei was a karate student under Miyagi Chojun while his brother, Chokei, studied under Nagamine Shoshin. I have watched him perform bojutsu and have a video of him, too, and I was very impressed by his skill, especially for his age. Actually, his smooth and elegant movement reminded of my own teacher when he was younger; he's now 87. The following is what I know about Chinen Masami.
    That squares with what I've been told about the Kishaba Bros. by my bo instr, T. Oshiro.

    Thank you for your very informative historical post. I appreciate your taking the time to jot that down.

    Yes, Mr. Kishaba was quite impressive, especially for his age. He does a mean Seiyunchin, too!

    Perhaps you might be able to lend some insight to me. As I've mentioned, I've seen the Shorinkan guys performing kata with the same enbusen as the kata that I learned under Mr. Oshiro. (Shuji and Sakugawa no kon) . I noticed that they don't do the fluid manner of wielding the bo that you demonstrate in your tape or that I was taught in "Kishaba-ha Yamane ryu" under Mr. Oshiro.


    Is it your opinion that Yamane Ryu bo is done in that fluid, whipping way or is Kishaba unique, in that he doesn't wield the bo in the manner that Chinen sensei taught, (as has been suggested in these forums, )?


    Woul you know if Chitose Sensei passed on his bo to his karate students? Would Mr. Dometrich have picked up some Yamane Ryu from Chitose Sensei?


    Thanks again,


    Best regards,


    Rob

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    Smile Yamane Ryu

    Hi Rob san,

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    Perhaps you might be able to lend some insight to me. As I've mentioned, I've seen the Shorinkan guys performing kata with the same enbusen as the kata that I learned under Mr. Oshiro. (Shuji and Sakugawa no kon). I noticed that they don't do the fluid manner of wielding the bo that you demonstrate in your tape or that I was taught in "Kishaba-ha Yamane ryu" under Mr. Oshiro.
    I had a Shorinkan friend [Jim Silvan] from Concord/Walnut Creek CA, who used to go out to Chico twenty years ago or so to teach. I know he studied with Oshiro for a while [I don't know how long] back then. Perhaps they learned from him. It's been my experience that folks can learn from one source but not look the same when they perform the dynamics of that style. In fact, I see it all the time. I think part of the reason is that some teacher's are too quick to impart technique when fundamental competency has not yet been achieved. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Silvan is such a person, I'm only making the observation and providing a possibility. It happens all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    Is it your opinion that Yamane Ryu bo is done in that fluid, whipping way or is Kishaba unique, in that he doesn't wield the bo in the manner that Chinen sensei taught, (as has been suggested in these forums, )?
    I think the question might be better served if you asked the same thing of Oshiro and or Nishime. IMO, those guys are in a league all by themselves with no one even remotely close to them...with all due respect to Mr. Kishaba & Prof Shinzato. That's how I see it anyway.

    Concerning the whipping action of our style and the possibility that it being the unique domain of Kishaba sensei...interseting observation but I don't believe so. I strongly believe [and am quoting my teacher when I say] that all bojutsu [all kobudo for that matter] should reflect such actions, and supported by corresponding footwork, and body mechanics. However, there are a few ideosyncrasis in Kishaba-ha Yamane Ryu that I have not seen elsewhere and that, I believe, certainly would constitute a signature action/technique found no where else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Alvelais
    Woul you know if Chitose Sensei passed on his bo to his karate students? Would Mr. Dometrich have picked up some Yamane Ryu from Chitose Sensei?
    I know Mr. Dometrich fairly well [I have taught at his dojo several times] and I respect his karate very much, as I do his kobudo, but I think in all fairness it's much more Taira-based, no doubt due to the influence of his daughter, Yoshiko Dometrich.

    Yoroshiku
    Patrick McCarthy
    International Ryukyu Karate-jutsu Research Society
    http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com

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    Hola Senor McCarthy!
    Thanks for your reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick McCarthy
    Hi Rob san,



    I had a Shorinkan friend [Jim Silvan] from Concord/Walnut Creek CA, who used to go out to Chico twenty years ago or so to teach. I know he studied with Oshiro for a while [I don't know how long] back then. Perhaps they learned from him.

    It's been my experience that folks can learn from one source but not look the same when they perform the dynamics of that style. In fact, I see it all the time. I think part of the reason is that some teacher's are too quick to impart technique when fundamental competency has not yet been achieved. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Silvan is such a person, I'm only making the observation and providing a possibility. It happens all the time.
    I see your point and I see that sort of thing happening a lot. I'm not confident that the situation that you describe above was operative in this case.

    Jim was my classmate, along with Carl Hultin in Mr. Oshiro's morning bo classes. I consider the two to be my seniors in bojutsu. I don't think that Jim was going up to Mr. Haley's (Chico) at the time. Also, I remember speaking to Mr. Haley, a year or so ago about this version of Shuji no kon, that his students were performing. He indicated that the source of this form for him was Mr. Nakazato.

    I think the question might be better served if you asked the same thing of Oshiro and or Nishime. IMO, those guys are in a league all by themselves with no one even remotely close to them...with all due respect to Mr. Kishaba & Prof Shinzato. That's how I see it anyway.
    Yes indeed, they're quite exceptional bojutsu practitioners! However, in a very general sense, I see that they, Mr. Kishaba and Mr. Donahue (student of Mr. Shinzato) move generally the same. The Shorinkan people that I've seen tend to move more like the Taira-based bo that I've seen.

    Concerning the whipping action of our style and the possibility that it being the unique domain of Kishaba sensei...interseting observation but I don't believe so. I strongly believe [and am quoting my teacher when I say] that all bojutsu [all kobudo for that matter] should reflect such actions, and supported by corresponding footwork, and body mechanics. However, there are a few ideosyncrasis in Kishaba-ha Yamane Ryu that I have not seen elsewhere and that, I believe, certainly would constitute a signature action/technique found no where else.
    Thank you for your observation. It clears up some things in my mind.

    I know Mr. Dometrich fairly well [I have taught at his dojo several times] and I respect his karate very much, as I do his kobudo, but I think in all fairness it's much more Taira-based, no doubt due to the influence of his daughter, Yoshiko Dometrich.

    Yoroshiku
    That makes sense. I Know that I've seen Mr. Dometrich's students at the AAU Nationals. I've had the honor of working a ring with him at Nationals. However, since all of the competitors wear the same uniform (white dogi and AAU patch) I didn't know which of the competitors were his or not.

    Thanks again for your reply!

    Rob

  13. #43
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    Default just some thoughts on menkyo kaiden

    I'n not here to change anyone's mind, because it seems people have their minds made up already. I will, however, contribute a little to this older conversation (i just came across it today) with a bit of my own thoughts.

    If Kishaba Chgi - who maybe studied under Masami Chinen in whatever meaning you may interpret "study" - should have such a written diploma it may be allowed to ask for it's existance and what it states (Shihan Menkyo, or Menj etc.). Also there are maybe more hints on such a diploma, like "the person learned Bjutsu for a long time" or "... reached this or that level" etc. It should be in your mind to provide such an information, if it exists (as Miyagi Chjun did not give our diploma or ranks, it would also be intersting to know how long Kishaba trained under him, if he continued training with others).
    I trained in Yamanni Ryu with Oshiro Toshihiro for almost 20 years. I also trained with Kishaba Chogi for the three years I lived in Okinawa (1994-1997).

    I remember a conversation I had in Kishaba's dojo one night. During one a mid-class break in one of Kishaba's classes, I asked sensei about the menkyo kaiden.

    We were all sitting in a corner of a room, and Kishaba answered me with a very short reply, one in which I could not understand at all, given that it was a mix of hogen and very masculine Japanese. It was up to another member of the group to explain to me in more simple terms (I forgot who it was), but the gist of it was that at the time Kishaba was training with Chinen it was not a given that people got menkyo kaiden in Okinawan martial arts: that tradition was more a practice seen in Japanese martial arts than it was in Okinawan ones. Okinawan martial systems traditionally did not place such a deep emphasis on records, certificates, and licenses.

    Oshiro, in fact, said a similar thing in an interview with Dong Tran. (http://www.oshirodojo.com/kobudo_int_dong.html)

    OSHIRO: "I believe there were other Yamanni-ryu instructors. They learned from Masami Chinen or his grandfather Sanda but I heard that only Kishaba sensei knows all the Yamanni-ryu katas. Other people may have studied from Masami sensei or Sanda sensei but how many people can really say they learned from them? No one can claim Menkyo Kaiden because there's no such thing. The word doesn't even exist in the Okinawan language."

    I am not saying that okinawan martial artists never received these papers, as it has already been pointed out that some of them did. And I am not asking any of you to believe what has been said to me. I myself have no reason to doubt the knowledge and honesty of the poeple I trained with. Even so, given what they've said, I am wondering how many people received these menkyo kaiden in Okinawa prior to World War II, when schools started to get more students and organizations were forming in a big way.

    if it really wasn't a common practice, then it might not be so unbelievable that a smaller more secretive style such as Yamanni Ryu didnt give them out, as they were looked upon merely as pieces of paper.

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    Default Nobida-San

    Hello Nobida-san, my name is Shaz D'Souza. I am a proud student of Nishime Sensei and Oshiro Sensei for the past 5 years. I have unfortunately never had the pleasure of meeting alot of Nishime Sensei or Oshiro Sensei's students due to the fact that I have always taken private lessons. I really enjoyed your post and have heard the exact same information from Shihan Oshiro and Shihan Nishime. It must have been wonderful to train under Kishaba Sensei. Since Shihan Oshiro and Shihan Nishime speak of him so often, he is truly someone I would love to meet. I am actually in Japan right now for a month or so and will be back in San Francisco where I currently reside. Yamanni Ryu is a very unique martial art and testiment to Okinwan martial arts...lately, it has only been getting more difficult..but Sensei Oshiro and Sensei Nishime always keep it interesting! Anyway, hopefully we will meet sometime....a pleasure
    Shaz DeSouza
    RBKD

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