Shinto Religious Shrine at the YMCA

[Robert Carver]

Mark:

Unfortunately, you are off-base with your remark, at least from my experience:

The YMCA`s takes and charges MONEY from the MA instructors who use their FACILITIES

I am almost 40 years old and I entered my very first YMCA program at the tender age of 5 (Day Camp). I have been involved with various programs in the YMCA ever since. I have taught at numerous YMCAs's and beginning in July, I start teaching at another (it's that military transfer thing moving me around). That's almost 35 years of YMCA involvement (OK, match that!) I can say without any hesitation that I HAVE NEVER PAID THE YMCA TO USE THEIR FACILITIES to teach class and I know of no other instructor that does. In fact, I have been paid or otherwise compensated by them (with free memberships, etc) for teaching. If you know someone that is being "charged" for using their facilities, then this is not the usual practice, and they should consider going elsewhere. So a "landlord/tentant relationship" is not applicable here, more of a "host/guest" relationship would be more accurate.

Joseph, you are as always an incredible source of information, but your opinion does not hold water based on my experience.

From what I've seen, the incentive to join the Y is generally not its Christian values but the desire of middle-class adults to avoid the working poor who frequent comparable city and county facilities.

Based on my experience, there are two types of folks that join the Y. Yours is not one of them. (1) People looking for a less expersive alternative to private health clubs (2) People who take advantage of the health facilities, and many programs and sports in an environment that relect their Christian values. Also, YMCA's still have youth hostels in many locations, and they have scholarship programs for disadvantaged folks (both youths and adults). So unfortunately, the middle-class folks you spoke of will still have to associate with the working poor.

Also, martial arts instructors have a somewhat mixed response from YMCA's when they ask to teach a program. As you know, there are a lot of flakes out there. Y's have gotten burned by this in the past. The another reason that instructors will often get a cold shoulder, is they use the YMCA as recruiting ground to get a base number of students so they can open a private school elsewhere. They then take the students with them and leave the Y hanging. The last reason why Y's are standoffish with martial arts programs, is the Christian mindset that still prevails (at least a little bit) that martial arts are contrary to Christian values and have practices that are "un-Christian". Practices such as a kamidana can only reinforce that. Let me give you an example.

At the last Y I taught at, we had an older gentleman come to our class and watch. He sat there quietly from the opening to the end of class. I initially introduced myself and asked him if he had any questions. He said he was just there to watch. Anyway, he repeated watching the entire class, three more times. Eventually one Saturday morning, he shows up with his 14 year old grandson. He explained that he was a very devote Christian and wanted to watch and make sure that students were not being taught anything contrary to his Christian beliefs. I have had similar events happen more then once. So people do look to see that programs at the Y reflect their personal values. You don't have to like dealing with this attitude, but it is the reality of teaching at a YMCA.

Also John, if you are explaining to your students exactly as you describe, then good for you. They can make an informed decision. However, don't be a bit surprised if you do get a few complaints to the YMCA administration concerning this matter, despite your being upfront with students.

[Joseph Svinth]

During the ten years or so I associated with the Y, I can recall only a couple non-whites in the place; they were mostly middle-class Nisei who had lived in that part of town for fifty years or so. To see the working-class blacks or Samoans who lived maybe a mile south of the facility, you had (and have) to go to the health club or the community center.

Money was (and remains) the chief discriminator. After paying an initiation fee of a couple hundred bucks, dues for an individual paying by direct deposit run about $25 a month. Karate classes cost an additional $30-35 every six weeks. Thus you end up paying about $50 a month for a class that meets twice a week for an hour or two. There were no family discounts.

From an instructional standpoint, while I've never heard of anyone charging the instructor to teach at the Y, you do have to maintain minimum attendance of 10-15 students. Otherwise you get shoved into a handball court, and once there, it's a short step to the door. Why? Because the Y oversells memberships, and as a result space is at a premium during the prime hours of 6-9 p.m., and as the YMCA staff made quite clear on multiple occasions, space is allocated strictly according to the greatest number of users requiring the least amount of equipment. Hence minimum weights, maximum half-court basketball.

As for the religious zealots, well, as I always tell 'em, whenever I visit a church, there's a good chance that the preacher will stop the service to holler, "Look! In the back! A sinner! You hear for the women or the food?" In the old days, it was the former, but these days it's the refrigerator rather than their daughters that they worry about.

[Greg Cumbee]

Exodus 20
1 ¶ And God spoke all these words, saying,
2 I am Jehovah your God, who has brought you out from the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
3 You shall not have any other gods before Me.
4 You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth;
5 you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me;
6 and doing kindness to thousands, to those loving Me, and to those keeping My commandments.
7 You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain; for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes His name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy;
9 six days you shall labor and do all your work;
10 and the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God; you shall not do any work, you, and your son, and your daughter, your male slave and your slave-girl, and your livestock, and your stranger who is in your gates.
11 For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all which is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; on account of this Jehovah blessed the sabbath day and sanctified it.
12 ¶ Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long on the land which Jehovah your God is giving to you.
13 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not testify a witness of falsehood against your neighbor.
17 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his slave-girl, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which belongs to your neighbor. - GOD

Posted by: Greg Cumbee

[Kit LeBlanc]

Shinto shrine in dojo in Christian facility;

Dojo destroyed by flood;


Hmmmmmmmmm..........



(John I am sorry for your loss, but maybe that will make ya LOL.)

Kit

[Robert Carver]

Joseph:

I am sorry to hear that your experiences with the Y have been less than positive. Mine have been entirely different.

The money factor you spoke of is only partially correct and I do not think it is meant to be intentionally discriminatory as you imply. For the most part, initiation fees have been done away with or made very reasonable. Usually less than $100 and they can be paid in installments. You also forget the YMCA's have scholarship and financial assistance programs for those that are disadvantaged. There have ALWAYS been family discounts. Most classes at YMCA's offer two rates, a Member rate which is usually very reasonable and a Non-Member rate ($10 for members and $35 for non-members in my present case). At the YMCA we are at, they have no programs in their multipurpose room after 6:30 pm and we were able to choose our times and days. Currently we offer three nights per week at two-hours per class.

As far as minimal number of students, I have only seen this in a very few cases. For the most part, Y's will work with you to find alternative times to teach if the current schedule is not working and they have a more popular program on tap. I have never been stuck back in the handball/racquetball courts, but considering the I generally teach for free because I enjoy teaching, anywhere is better then no where.

[John Lindsey]

Actually, the shrine survived quite well. Since all the rest of the YMCA was wiped out for 6 months, I don't understand the logic of Yaweh.

Reminds me of something else:

"If, as they say, God spanked this town
For being much too frisky,
Why did He burn His churches down
And save Hotaling's Whiskey?"
[Poem on 1906 San Francisco earthquake and fire, in which
the city's largest whiskey distillery was left unscathed]

[Mark Brecht]

Originally posted by Robert Carver
Mark:

Unfortunately, you are off-base with your remark, at least from my experience:

Let`s take a look at world history. Christianty has killed more people through history, than both world wars together... Money and power were and still are usually the prime motivators for war... Hm, contemporary examples are also easy, as now many people decide to remarry, they get their first marriage annulled (which many churches agree rather eager to do, otherwise they would loose membership...). So I do believe that money is the prime motivator for christian leadership to bend the rules and to show tolerance, etc...

In regards to the YMCA money issues. Let me please clarify, as I did not do a good job about this before. I am aware of several individulas who teach MA`s at YMCA`s, and it seems to be the general rule that the YMCA`s take one third of the tution which the students pay to the instructors. You are correct that the instructors do not get charged directly, however the YMCA receives financial compensation for the use of their facilities...

[Jeff Cook]

Joe,

Why did you only list the SECOND definition for heathen? To try to push words into my mouth to make it appear that I was slamming John? Tsk, tsk.

Heathen: (1) A person who is not a believer in any of the world's chief religions, especially one who is neither Christian, Jew, nor Muslim.

Now, do I need to explain the reason why there are first and second definitions for words in a dictionary, or can we leave the silly distraction off to the side of this fairly important discussion?

Using your logic and opinion, should we assume that John is purposely catering to upper middle class white folks, because he teaches at and supports the racially exclusive YMCA?

Also, to reiterate for those folks who seem to not hear me, I did not say this is bad budo; I was pointing out that bad budo is highly subjective, and maybe you all should remember that in future discussions.

John, thanks for the explanation. As I expected (and the reason why I gave you the benefit of the doubt) you explained to your students exactly what they were bowing to.

I just hope that doesn't cause a Christian zealot to make an issue out of it some day.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu

[John Lindsey]

BTW, the YMCA is probably 75% Mexican Americans, due to the part of town that it is in.

[Jason Chambers]

As long as we are going off on a tangent here about Christianity and the like... here is my two cents.


Originally posted by Greg Cumbee
Exodus 20
4 You shall not make a graven image for yourself, or any likeness in the heavens above, or in the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth;

**Who violates this one? Hmmm, let's see... the Catholics with thier Pope, Saints (statues in the church) and what have you.


5 you shall not bow to them, and you shall not serve them; for I am Jehovah your God, a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of fathers on sons, on the third and on the fourth generation, to those that hate Me;

**Technically, this one covers pretty much every one of us that works for a living.... if you ain't the boss. So what do we do? Quit working and trust "Jehovah" to deliver us groceries and other essentials?

7 You shall not take the name of Jehovah your God in vain; for Jehovah will not leave unpunished the one who takes His name in vain.

**Again, another broken my maybe 90% of so-called Christians... saying "Oh my God!" is a violation...

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy;

**People... the Sabbath is not on Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. It is SUNDAY. Some devouts would argue this point...


9 six days you shall labor and do all your work;
10 and the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God; you shall not do any work, you, and your son, and your daughter, your male slave and your slave-girl, and your livestock, and your stranger who is in your gates.

**Hey, well here ya go... God said it.... so what's the problem?

13 You shall not murder.

**I suppose killing in "holy wars" was/is not murder.

14 You shall not commit adultery.

**Now... touchy issue. Do you stay single and celebate after a divorce? You know, in some faiths, you only not married anymore until death does you part...

15 You shall not steal.

**Corporations, led by Christian folk do this ALL THE TIME...


16 You shall not testify a witness of falsehood against your neighbor.

**Our Christian "politicians" are best known for this one...


17 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his slave-girl, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which belongs to your neighbor. - GOD

**Frankly I have no desire for my neighbor's ass... he doesn't have an ox or any slaves... and hell, I already have a wife... who need another one?


I guess my point would be:

Who cares if you put a Shinto shrine in a YMCA? Just because we have a Republican leading the country, doe that mean we all have to be Republican? NOPE

Are we saying the Shinto faith is wrong? If that, then the same could be said for the Christian faith. Most religions has written histories... most are strikingly similar to the Christian story of how we got here. So what is to say there not all inherently the same?

I think they are. God is God... what does it matter how you worship him? I am no Atheist, I believe in God but I don't prescribe to any particular faith, especially a Western faith, until one comes along that practices what they preach...


The Kingdom of God is within YOU, not in houses of stone and wood...
- - - - - - Jesus Christ, according to the Gospel of Thomas

P.S. Hey Mark... maybe cynism is in order here...

[Don Cunningham]

When I was in Japan, it was quite common for families to pray at Shinto shrines for some events and then at Buddhist temples for others. Japanese religions are very open minded about personal beliefs and values. In fact, it was the Christian doctrine regarding exclusiveness that caused the feudal authorities to be so concerned and led to the persecutions. I think they were also a bit angry about the way the Catholic Church was getting involved in their internal politics and stirring up some of the southern daimyo, but that's another issue.

[MarkF]

The goyim speak.

I've read this with real amusement and almost fell out of my chair laughing at some comments. As to Mark being right or wrong about christianity or religion proper, he is at least half-right.

Two really short comments on religion: "Christians pass the plate and pretend to "ask" for "donations." Jews send a bill annually.

"Have you noticed that God can't handle money? He always has his hand out, and when he earns enough to live, he doesn't have to pay taxes, proving he is God." You know, death and taxes? Death he does great in the money department, and at marriage, well, please. And people pay to mourn better than those who "give at the office."
****

My YMCA in the LA area was managed by a Jew. Why? No one else was able to raise the money for new digs badly needed. It took him six months. Oh, and the judo program was two bucks a class.

Today, the YMCA which "sponsers" my judo program charges MY students 40/month for the classes. Full Membership is a LOT more. And they don't pay me, they pay through the nose.

It took me over a month to get them to give some folks a break in the dues for classes, but absolutely wouldn't do the same with membership.

I'm closed part of the year because I don't have enough students, and even with dues, the money I get is for paying for the program, tournaments, insurance, and lots of other goodies which I am not reimbursed.

In the one private for-profit dojo I went to when I was a kid charged ten dollars a month and all the classes you wanted to attend.

Kamidanas? If I could, I would say no to the "devout christian." Generally, these people can be found in church, which just happens to be were all the sinners congregate on Sundays to show off their new clothes. I don't have one, and I have taken the flags out of the gym where classes are held. One is the state flag, which really is the Zia Indian flag, and the US flag. Politcs and religion do mix, and that's the problem.

Personally, I'd rather hang with the pagans. A much more life- engaging group, if I say so myself. Now the Jews for Yeshua, or messianic Jews, are a problem. In fact, they are downright scary if you don't take yeshua as your lord and savior while observing all other Jewish functions, such as "shul" friday evenings. (they also drive on Saturdays (this is a no-no to the god I was brought up to believe). They are not shy in telling a Jew of a REAL faith that they are going straight to hell and will be damned and burned for eternity. The only others who say that are the Scientists. They say that is was a "Test" this little thing in Europe not too long ago called the Shoa (Look it up if you don't get my drift). Now there is a test not worth the time in repeating, failing or not.

Well, perhaps I am going to hell. I just followed my teachers' examples. I don't even have a picture of J. Kano on the wall. But do we bow to an invisible one? Well, I am not sure, but I was told bowing was to thank the tatami for the damage it was allowing us to do to it, and then to bow off was an apology. Pagan? Who gives a rat's patoot?

[ghp]

Greg,

10 And the seventh day is a sabbath to Jehovah your God; you shall not do any work, you, and your son, and your daughter, your male slave and your slave-girl, and your livestock, and your stranger who is in your gates.

17 You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male slave, or his slave-girl, or his ox, or his ass, or anything which belongs to your neighbor.

So, anyone being a true believer of everything in the bible would have to have slaves?? Where do I place my order?? I need two slave girls to clean house and cook ... and other duties as assigned.

Although I am religiously "confused" and adhere to no specific group, I see absolutely nothing wrong with adhering to the policies of a religious-based organization if I am using its facilities. No kamidana in the budo-room of the YMCA? Okay. No eating pork in a Muslim-owned cafeteria? Sure, okay with me. No bowing in the Young Men's Jewish Association (is there one?) dojo? Fine by me.

If the religious-based organization didn't mind my installing a kamidana ... that's just icing on the cake.

Regards,
Guy

p.s. John, do you also make them recite the RANGER Creed?? hehehe

[Joseph Svinth]

It was the Young Men's Hebrew Association; now it's the JCCA. http://www.jcca.org/transferhome . They have 275 facilities and claim a milllion members.

For some early history of the YMCA in Seattle, see http://www.historylink.org/output.CF...4&keyword=ymca . QUOTE: The gymnasium proved to be far more popular than the Y’s Bible classes, prayer meetings, and other religious activities. By February 1887, an average of 350 people a month were using the gymnasium while fewer than a dozen were attending the weekly Bible classes. “Does it pay to have a gymnasium and bathroom?” George Carter, the Y’s general secretary, asked in an article published in the Bugle Call two years after the gym was opened. “We find the membership has increased 300 per cent since the above have been introduced.”

And yes, the Y is open to all people. Regarding entrance policies, much depends on whether the facility has a pool or not. If it's a Y in a ratty old school, then often they are quite good about reducing rates. But if it's the new one, with the pool, weight room, basketball court, and showers, then hang on to your wallet.

For comparative purposes, the cost of an annual membership for a family is about $650, while for seniors or people on scholarship, the rate is about $125. Class fees are extra, and can sometimes be waived. But, if not, then for a teenager or young adult, you can end up paying $50-$85 a month for two days a week, which is comparable to commercial taekwondo schools and about twice what they charge at local judo clubs.

By the way, the first definition of pagan in my dictionary is "A follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)." For "Heathen," the complete first definition of the adjective is: "1 Of or relating to heathens, their religions or their customs. 2. Strange, uncivilized." For the noun, the complete second definition is "1. An unconverted member of a people or nation that does not acknowledge the God of the Bible. 2. An uncivilized or irreligious person." Thus two of the four listed definitions are derogatory ("strange, uncivilized") and only one of the four definitions (the first noun usage) refers specifically to people who do not acknowledge the God of the Bible.

On that topic, which Bible? I mean, the Jews, Catholics, Coptics, Protestants, Orthodox, and Latter Day Saints all have radically differing versions. (As does Islam and do, presumably, Candomble and Santeria.) And are Zoroastrian documents included, as in Islam, or are they excluded?

[Jeff Cook]

Well, Joe, as the first definitions in your dictionary and my dictionary are the most common usages of the word, and as I do not have a history of being rude or defamatory on this board, I think a reasonable person could safely assume that I was not being derogatory towards John or Shintoists by my usage of the word "pagan." Hopefully you, John, and everyone else is clear on that now. However, your discourse does make a nice distraction from the discussion at hand, although not a very sophisticated one.

Guy,

"If the religious-based organization didn't mind my installing a kamidana ... that's just icing on the cake."

I have to agree with your comment - as long as the religious-based organization understood what a kamidana was, what it was used for, what it stood for, and how it was going to be used, BEFORE it was installed.

Jeff Cook
Wabujitsu