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Thread: Shinto Religious Shrine at the YMCA

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by John Lindsey
    Now, the other question is if Shinto is a religion? I say that because I have met many Japanese who don't consider it such! Well, of course it is a religion to our Western standards, but it appears to exist in a "gray zone" to many Japanese...
    now if that ain't the $64,000 question ...

    my 5 years of living in japan, as well as a bit of work for the CBC during the Nagano Winter Olympics putting together "japanese culture" spots, leads me to agree with John's thumbnail sketch above. japanese on the whole do not involve their spiritual beliefs in the majority of the daily lives, barring those japanese who have converted to Christianity or other monetheist faiths. neither Buddhism nor Shinto present themselves as moral codes of behaviour in the way that religions of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition do, and thus the typical japanese understanding of faith or spirituality is quite different than people from outside of japan or perhaps some parts of Asia. this is not to say that japanese have no religious belief whatsoever, but their relationship with spirituality is simply different.

    japanese society has for many years structured itself on rules that are either influenced by or very similar to Confucian thought. religious practice has, for the most part, played second fiddle to this social code of conduct. since Shinto has (to the best of my knowledge) no doctrine and consists almost entirely of rituals, it fits very neatly with the way japanese tend to think of faith. to the "westerner" they may come off as "fairweather believers", but this is how many, if not most, japanese practise their beliefs.

    the issue of the kamidana is much trickier. part of being Shinto is being japanese, and i can't really imagine "converting", although if more knowledgable folk would like to correct me, please feel free. if you work from the assumption that, over the hundreds of years that japanese have trained in martial arts, they didn't even stop to consider that non-japanese might eventually become martial arts students, then the kamidana would never become an issue. now that non-japanese have joined the ranks of students not to mention teachers of japanese martial arts, the issue deserves some consideration.

    as a religious artifact, a kamidana in an ostensibly Christian institution could be considered an affront to the operators of the establishment. on the other hand, it's not as though Shinto is looking to compete with Christianity, and the proposition itself would probably strike "followers" of Shinto as rather strange. i think it fits with a culturally-informed approach to training in the japanese martial arts and the etiquette related to the kamidana in the dojo is indispensable, but i cannot see it as religious practice in the same way one might a Christian ritual. of course, one musn't forget Judeo-Christian-Muslim injunctions against idol (or object) worship, and the kamidana may be construed as such.

    bad budo? well, it seems to me that every student has to make their own choice. if the presence or influence of japanese spirituality offends the potential student's faith than it is up to them whether or not they will begin training. it seems to me, John, that you are taking an honourable approach by telling students plainly about the nature of the kamidana. preserving the traditions of whatever martial art you train in seems to me to embody good budo, not bad at all.

    jeff "i talk too much for my own good" hamacher

    PS John: apologies again for the computer virus, but i did manage to disinfect my machine.

  2. #32
    Yamantaka Guest

    Cool CANDOMBLE, SANTERÍA AND VOODOO

    Originally posted by Joseph Svinth
    On that topic, which Bible? I mean, the Jews, Catholics, Coptics, Protestants, Orthodox, and Latter Day Saints all have radically differing versions. (As does Islam and do, presumably, Candomble and Santeria.) And are Zoroastrian documents included, as in Islam, or are they excluded?
    YAMANTAKA : Just a small amendment that does not detract from your points, I believe...Candomblé, Santería and Voodoo (Vodunsi) do not have religious books. They're wholly based on oral traditions and principles. And most of the bad propaganda associated with those cults have been propagated by catholic and protestant christians, as the "white goat" (human sacrifices). Forgetting that the Lord God demanded from Abraham the sacrifice of his son...(And Abraham accepted it without discussion what led us to believe that such a practice weren't so uncommon or alien to the jewish people, to suffer it from their own God).
    Anyway, as I said before, I feel all this dogma, prejudice and intolerance to be very disagreeable. Religion, by its own precepts, should be about love, tolerance and goodwill.
    Oh, Well...Perhaps I'm wrong...
    Best

  3. #33
    MarkF Guest

    Default Re: CANDOMBLE, SANTERÍA AND VOODOO

    Originally posted by Yamantaka


    YAMANTAKA : Just a small amendment that does not detract from your points, I believe...Candomblé, Santería and Voodoo (Vodunsi) do not have religious books. They're wholly based on oral traditions and principles. And most of the bad propaganda associated with those cults have been propagated by catholic and protestant christians, as the "white goat" (human sacrifices). Forgetting that the Lord God demanded from Abraham the sacrifice of his son...(And Abraham accepted it without discussion what led us to believe that such a practice weren't so uncommon or alien to the jewish people, to suffer it from their own God).
    Anyway, as I said before, I feel all this dogma, prejudice and intolerance to be very disagreeable. Religion, by its own precepts, should be about love, tolerance and goodwill.
    Oh, Well...Perhaps I'm wrong...
    Best
    You could be wrong, Ubaldo, but I doubt it. But I do have a question now that you are the one who decided to explain the subtopic of your post.

    Isn't Santeria have at its root, christianity, and further, Catholicsim as the way?

    I mean, the cross is a tool, the chicken is killed in a manner which is common to people who eat chicken, it just isn't as much symbolism as the church, with the consuming of blood and flesh replaced by wined and biscuits?

    From what I know, and it isn't much, but relieving oneself of sin is much easier in the church, as in santeria, the same things one is obsolved from and blessed, it just uses something more realistic than a box with a man inside.

    At any rate, Ubaldo is correct in his last parapraph, and while I'm not one to ask to close a thread, I think he, Ubaldo, has gone through the trash and found the very essence of humanity. After all, much of what religion is, forms the basis for "Man's inhumanity toward man."

    And I thought it was shiai.

    Mark

  4. #34
    MarkF Guest

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    Is this a new hack or something? This thread is running in 'shinto' at the same time it is here, posts are posted in both, even if only written in one.

    Fancy duds!

    Mark

  5. #35
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    Default Small point...

    Jeff, you wrote:

    "...neither Buddhism nor Shinto present themselves as moral codes of behaviour in the way that religions of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition do..."

    I am not a Buddhist, and I cannot speak with any authority on Shinto, but I think most Buddhists would take issue with that statement. I think most Buddhists would insist that there *is* a rigid moral code that comes with their faith, often ignored or disregarded in favor of mysticism and whatnot. I only point this out because I have made the same mistake in the past. Buddhists are increasingly frustrated with Westerners who do not realize that Buddhism has its own Eightfold Path the same way Judeo-Christian traditions have their 10 commandments. This is one of many misconceptions about Buddhism.

    To learn more, here's a good site:

    www.darkzen.com

  6. #36
    Yamantaka Guest

    Unhappy Re: Re: CANDOMBLE, SANTERÍA AND VOODOO

    Originally posted by MarkF
    You could be wrong, Ubaldo, but I doubt it. But I do have a question now that you are the one who decided to explain the subtopic of your post.
    Isn't Santeria have at its root, christianity, and further, Catholicsim as the way?
    I mean, the cross is a tool, the chicken is killed in a manner which is common to people who eat chicken, it just isn't as much symbolism as the church, with the consuming of blood and flesh replaced by wined and biscuits?
    From what I know, and it isn't much, but relieving oneself of sin is much easier in the church, as in santeria, the same things one is obsolved from and blessed, it just uses something more realistic than a box with a man inside.
    Mark
    YAMANTAKA : Mark San, you're more evil than Darth Vader...
    Let me see, it's a big problem to explain. Anyway...
    The Orisha Religions (Candomblé, Vodunsi, Santería, Macumba and a few others) HAVE NOT catholicism or even Christianity at its roots. It's a pure african religion, based on the cult of ancestors and of the forces of nature.
    The problem arised when the african negroes were taken as slaves to the Americas. The Slave-Masters (Hello, Joe Svinth! )
    didn't allow the slaves to cultivate their own gods or keep anything of their culture. Also the priests wished to convert the slaves to the TRUE faith (Christianity, of course!), so there was a dual process : the african gods (Shango, Ogun, Eshu...) were said to represent christian saints and the negroes agreed, as it was the only way to continue to adore their own gods. So, both the priests and the negroes said they weren't revering Ogun but Saint Sebastian and so on. The negroes also believed that the christian churces were "places of power" and that they could "steal" some of that power for their own purposes. I was present at the funeral of one of Candomble's Greatest Priestesses, Milady Mother (Mãe Senhora) and several african princes came to Bahia to present their hommages to her.
    But those negroes didn't know how to read and so the Bible wasn't important to them. They kept their oral traditions and also their own "places of power" (open places in the forest, Giant Iroko Trees, crossroads...).
    Today, there's a great movement, in the Americas and in Africa, to dissociate the Orisha Religions from christianity, since that linking is no longer necessary.
    If you want to know more, I may get some bibliography for you. Sadly, most of that is in portuguese or african languages. Perhaps, our living Encyclopedia, Joe Svinth, may help us here, with something in english.
    Hello, Warden of Knowledge, can you help us?
    See, the problem you got me into?
    Best
    Last edited by Yamantaka; 25th June 2001 at 19:33.

  7. #37
    Dennis_Mahon Guest

    Default

    After all this Christian bashing, I have to wonder if I really want to be a member of this forum anymore....

    Christianity is responsible for more death than any other religion?

    Christianity is always demanding more money?

    Christianity is intollerant, and persecutes?

    So much for "enlightened" martial artists!

    You know why the Church collects so much money? Because we spend it, on charities around the world. There was just a devestating earthquake in Peru; do you know who's leading the relief effort? The Catholic Church.

    We've killed more people than any other religion? What about aetheism? Between the Nazis, Stalin, and Mao, how many millions and tens of millions were killed by the Allmighty State? Meanwhile, the Catholic Church saved over 700,000 Jews from the concentration camps, by hiding them in monestaries, convents, seminaries, and in the Vatican itself.
    Right now, their is a jihad being waged against Christians in southern Sudan. The Church spends some of that awful money finding the women and children that have been sold into slavery, and purchasing their freedom. Religious shrines and home churches in China are routinely destroyed by the government, because they remain loyal to Rome. Priests and bishops are condemned to the legolai, prison camps where they have to perform slave labor. Take a good look at the products you buy at the store- chances are, it was by a priest in slavery.

    Think I'm angry?

    DAMN RIGHT I AM!!!!!!!!!!!

    Enjoy your bigotry.

  8. #38
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    Dennis,

    Hang in there, buddy - I feel your pain. I feel sadness rather than anger. In typical fashion, many folks brand a group of people as "bad" or "undesirable" because of the actions of a minority within the group.

    Isn't it interesting to observe the overly defensive reactions to a worthy topic? Maybe we should count the various diversions and digressions that this topic has elicited. I wonder why that is. Would anybody care to explain?

    Hell, let's talk about anything except the topic at hand.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Small point...

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    "...neither Buddhism nor Shinto present themselves as moral codes of behaviour in the way that religions of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim tradition do..."

    I am not a Buddhist, and I cannot speak with any authority on Shinto, but I think most Buddhists would take issue with that statement. I think most Buddhists would insist that there *is* a rigid moral code that comes with their faith, often ignored or disregarded in favor of mysticism and whatnot.
    a very similar line of discussion cropped up in the Zen forum, and i believe it supports my comment above. in essence, Buddhism is a "way of liberation", the path that the practioner follows to reach enlightenment. part of following the path involves the observance of certain principles; i, too, must admit i'm no expert, but this may have something to do with The Eightfold Path. to some, those principles may be taken as rules or moral codes, and if i understand it correctly, in part by failing to follow those guidelines the practitioner condemns themself to spiritual ignorance and fails to attain enlightenment. on the other hand, my readings into the subject (both in english and japanese) tend not to focus on the idea of following codes of behaviour, and reaching enlightenment has much more to do with personal growth and change than with the way one acts outwardly. i'm certainly not suggesting that Buddhism is devoid of moral precepts or teachings, but it is vastly different in nature to "religion" as practioners of monetheisms understand it, and this in turn has an influence on japanese spirituality. in response to your website suggestion (and i'm looking forward to checking it out), i'll recommend you read Alan Watts' The Way of Zen. it is an excellent presentation on the development of Buddhism and subsequent birth of Zen. read you later.

    cheers, jeff hamacher

  10. #40
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    Back to the original question...again.

    I think one needs to determine how apprpriate it is to display a religious icon (alter) in "christian" facility. If it was discussed, and agreed upon in advance, fine. If not, then perhaps one should consider discussing the matter with the administration or remove the alter.

    Is it bad budo? I think not, perhaps not the best manners, but then again the various YMCA's around this country are no more "christian" organizations than the average 24-Hour Fitness Center. On the other hand, some YMCA's are strongly affiliated with local churches and would see the placement of a Shinto shrine in their facilities as highly insulting. Kinda like serving spare-ribs at a Kosher deli.

    BTW the YMCA I grew up in (nearly every Saturday for 5 years) drew from all sectors of society, but mostly just working class folks. The Salvation Army used a portion of the facility and they had a "shelter" for the homeless. Syracuse, NY circa 1965.

    Respectfully,
    Kevin Schaller

  11. #41
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    I, too, "grew up" at the YMCA, hanging after high school to swim and mostly play hoops. None of us were tuned in to the "Christian" aspect of the Y. It was the best possible rec center. It didn't ask or try to be more.

    Personally I find nothing wrong with a kamiza in a YMCA. I applaud the Houston Y's tolerance and John's candor. Even given it's Shinto source, a Japanese budo kamiza is far more a source of tradition, respect, and presence of that budo's founder or his/ its spirit. The only way a YMCA (or a JCC) could find said kamiza offensive would be if it represented a prosyletizing or missionary aspect of its religious source. Shinto has no such tradition. Tied to Japanese culture and race as it is, it CANNOT manifest such a goal. So that's one view.

    Another far more concrete: in the early 1990's our Orlando aikido dojo (Shindai Aikikai) lost our training hall when the gymnastics school that housed us closed down. Enter the YMCA. They offered us a large carpeted meeting room in which to train. We all became members at a reduced honorary fee: The YMCA came forward to save us.

    But something was missing; we had no kamiza. I have always admired the spirit of the moment in Jewish services when the ark is opened and the Torah brought forth. With that in mind I built a portable kamiza with two doors that opened onto M. Ueshiba Sensei's portrait. The open doors held the kamiza upright.

    Nowadays, Shindai is the largest aikido dojo in the southeast and we're very proud of its growth. One of our proudest days was moving our giant old (8' square) joined cedar kamiza from the empty gymnastics school. It turned our warehouse space into a dojo. The Toyama sword guys installed a hardwood training floor and their own kamiza. Judo and karate organizations accrued; Shindai became a budokan. (The judo guys use the old portable kamiza to house J. Kano Sensei's portrait now.)

    So the kamiza is vital to all of our Japanese budo groups. None of us view it in a religious sense, but as realistically the "seat of the spirit" before which we train. None of us claim or aspire to be Shinto. But all understand the spiritual nature that underlies and energizes our keiko.

    As an aside to the above thread drift: my sister has a dictionary definition of philistine---"one who is devoid of culture and indifferent to the arts." To bad history gave them a bad rap. Archeology is revealing them to be a refined and artistic culture yielding intricate artifacts rivalling the ancient Celts in graceful elegance.

  12. #42
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by Dennis_Mahon
    After all this Christian bashing, I have to wonder if I really want to be a member of this forum anymore....



    I'm sorry if I don't share your pain, but the reasons for quitting a forum, in a Shinto subforum, doesn't really make much sense. No one attacked the church for anything, and in fact, was a discussion over, first the placing of a religious relic in a YMCA (shinto), and while some posts were out of left field such as mine, in no way was anything posted concerning or pertaining to, "bashing the church." Some were purely informational, and these, too were bashed as not stcking to the topic.

    My posts were made up largely of jokes, some older than I am, and others, such as the subtopic of the "how much" in the YMCA had nothing to do, IMO, with church-bashing. A lot of this was mispeak, and while there is a thread of truth, it comes not at the expense of any church.

    BTW: People, not the Vatican or its members saved people from becoming "crispy critters" during the holocaust. The Vatican never opined in any way their disapproval of the goings on, but people, on their own mostly, DID save many from a horrible death at the hands of other human beings. Many of these were christians, and Catholic

    The Vatican simply didn't get invovled, and is still trying to live that down. Mistakes in judgment happen, and as a Jew raised in a conservative Jewish home, it was not spoken.


    I could go on, but no one has said anything of the kind, about the church, with perhaps statements of money and churches, synagogues, mosks, etc., as a necessary evil. Comparing the way Christians and Jews collect donations was strictly a very old joke, and as this is a Shinto forum, and someone thought otherwise, it would have been sent to the trash.

    So if you took notice, nearly all (with a couple of exceptions), brought up the history of the YMCA, then the JCCA, so within the narrowest of viewpoints, could a churchbashing be observed.

    So how did this come from a Kamidana in a Christian organization to discussion of mostly christianity and shinto? Simple. Both were mentioned, so the discussion was opened by the original poster, even if that wasn't his intent.

    Besides, Kevin's answer to placing a kamidana in a dojo was the best I've read. Most kamidana's I've observed are usually limited to a photograph, hanging from a nail in the dojo.

    But then, judoka are rarely so specific.

    Mark

  13. #43
    MarkF Guest

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    Ubaldo,
    You so much more eloquently said what I meant that another comment is not necessary.

    I only add this. I witness a service of sorts of Santeria in NYC (East Harlem) in which something similar happened while I was there. There was a chicken, there was blood after slitting the animal, and there were crosses and shrines to Jesus, more like a kamidana, really, and I had a heck of a time getting the blood out. I didn't even try to get out the blood on my tee shirt.

    I understood enough Spanish also to know there were hints of Catholicism, people asking to be absolved, and blessings made all round.

    My mistake was in saying it had roots in Christianity instead of apects of Catholicism. I'm sure this was picked up along the way, as in most religions once they leave the land where it was born.

    There are Jewish Priests (not rabbis, but Cohn) who are said to be linked genetically today to Abraham. In Africa, there is a sect of Jews there who claim this same thing, and they have finally been given the genetic proof they had been calling.

    Do you know of the religious practices of the Native Mexicans, the Tarahumara, who, while continuing most of the original practices of their ancestors, took on also, the Catholicism of The Spanish, probably as a necessity of life back then, but who still front the Christianity the natives were exposed to?


    Some speak Spanish today, but the majority still speaks a distinctly different tongue.

    Interesting stuff.

    Mark

  14. #44
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    Originally posted by Jeff Cook
    Dennis,

    Hang in there, buddy - I feel your pain. I feel sadness rather than anger. In typical fashion, many folks brand a group of people as "bad" or "undesirable" because of the actions of a minority within the group.

    Isn't it interesting to observe the overly defensive reactions to a worthy topic? Maybe we should count the various diversions and digressions that this topic has elicited. I wonder why that is. Would anybody care to explain?

    Hell, let's talk about anything except the topic at hand.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu
    Ok, staying in topic. Jeff I do think you are being a bit of a hypocrite, especially with having started this post.
    Let me explain why I think so.

    Wabujitsu: wa - "peaceful" or "harmonious", bujitsu - martial/peacekeeping arts of the samurai/warriors

    I took this from your website. To consider that a mix of Judo and Karate create a JUTSU art is highly subjective view, but that is not my point. You are refering to your art as "Martial Arts of the Samurai". Considering where the Gendai Arts come from, I do agree with you. Now, don`t you think YOU should educate your students and prospective students who might look at your website, that these arts are related, connected and founded in relation with eastern philosophy and religions. E.g. there are handpostures or breathing techniques, etc... which are related to esoteric Buddhism. Don`t you also think that the fact that most dojo in Japan have kamidana in them, shows the relationship...
    How come that you are upset about a dojo displaying a kamidana ??? Because it is a Christan place??? One they get money for the use of their facility, and if they don`t like having it there, and they don`t need to rent out the space... Two, a kamidana has ovbivously some kind of religous or spirtiual meaning. Do you think the YMCA administration believes the MA instructor puts up a dollhouse...???
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  15. #45
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    For a website that provides links to Billy Graham, santeria, and other African religious groups, try http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/ss.../religion.html .

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