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Thread: Aikido as combat art.

  1. #16
    Daniel Pokorny Guest

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    Jared,

    In reference to your scribe:

    "And it may very well be the case that an instructor will train different people differently. But I've never seen an instructor that teaches the touchy-feely stuff on the one hand, and the hard core, "throw-him-into-a-brick-wall" style on the other."

    I think I understand what you mean here. I've noticed that instructors vary widely in this area. I've worked with instructors that are extremely pliable with outstanding timing. This tends to make them appear to be the touchy-feely type. I've also worked with instructors that have that "must keep them in pain" type attitude as well. Love to uke for them.......... not! I consider both very valuable instruction though.

    Drawing from modest experience..... I know that there is a time for both when defending oneself. In regard to teaching you how to kill though, well, almost all the techniques I've practiced in Aikido CAN be used to kill or lead to a kill if intended that way. But what sickens me is to hear people (instructors) talk so freely and openly about killing techniques when the closest they have come to death is the passing of a relative or pet.

    All the talk about killing techniques gets really ridiculous in the first place. It doesn't take much techinque to hit someone in the head with a hard object and kill them. We as humans are simply not built for raging a physical war on each other. Our bodies were not meant for fighting, if they were we would all look like rinos with thick heavy armour.

    Sometimes I think a lot of what we hear is in regard to killing an attack and somehow we end up translating that to mean killing the person. Two very distinctly different things.........

    Regards,

    Daniel C. Pokorny

  2. #17
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    Daniel, while we may not be rhinos, we do hear about joggers who are attacked, raped, beaten, lose one third of the blood from their bodies, and yet live. We hear about people who are shot multiple times and live. Call it the dichotomy of life; Man is easy to kill, yet it is hard to kill a man.

    See, I believe that human beings can take a lot. And in no way have I sought teachere who do nothing more than teach you how to kill. In fact, if the teacher never brings up killing, that's fine with me. But that doesn't preclude the fact that several techniques can kill. Shiho nage, Irimi nage, these can easily lead to an attackers death, and in fact has led to death in dojo environments where a freak breakfall has uke landing on his neck.

    So it's not an obsession with killing that I'm asking about, but of the combative nature of aikido. I've read one post where a judoka talked about the dance and how it was a sweet method of self defense. I agree, only, was it the dance, or was it the "keep him in pain" stuff.

    I can't be the only person who has trained in a dojo thinking this guy is going to get himself killed if he tries this for real. You know, I spent plenty of times working in clubs and bars to get to use what little I've learned in a real setting where hurting the attacker is a definite no-no; these are your customers after all. And I've seen Jeet Kune Do people, Tae Kwan Do people, and other martial arts trained individuals fight with bouncers, fight with bartenders, fight with each other for any number of stupid reasons, usually hopped up on alcohol, and possibly on some illicit drugs; these are not just sloppy drunken thugs.

    Against that setting, I'm asking does the dance work? Because in the scope of random thoughts, if you think you're learning "tools to save your life" (to quote Terry Dobson), and what you're learning is how to dance rather than how to deal with committed attackers, well, I think you see my point. . .

    --

    Jared Riggs

  3. #18
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    What sometimes may happen is that people may inadvertantly copy the softer manifestations of technique that they see older instructors perform, and attempt to capture that same effortless quality without being fully aware of the underlying mechanics. Saotome sensei is deceptively soft in the appearance of his techniques, yet this is a man who also endured a good deal of the earlier training of O-sensei's dojo. Another excellent instructor is Mr. Sugawara, who spent many years training in harder styles, including Goju-ryu Karate. He has been recently researching the connection of Japanese arts to Chinese arts, and has emphasised a softer approach to Aikido. His technique is very efficient, and maintains excellent control of uke with what seems to be very little effort. In most of the martial arts that I have trained in, teachers do become far more subtle in application as they mature, but this is the product of consistent practice, including some rough play in their younger days. The "dancelike" techniques that an experienced teacher manifests can be said to be rather abstract, but good abstract art only comes from a background of serious training in technique and composition, and many, many hours of practice.
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

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    Hi Budoka,

    Originally posted by Budoka
    And it may very well be the case that an instructor will train different people differently. But I've never seen an instructor that teaches the touchy-feely stuff on the one hand, and the hard core, "throw-him-into-a-brick-wall" style on the other.
    You've probably never heard of him, but go train with Ken Nisson sensei up in Burlington, VT. While he may not say "throw him into a brick wall", he certainly "plants" one into the ground! I believe folks out at John Smart's dojos took to calling Ken sensei "The Velvet Sledgehammer". Ken sincerely believes in the philosophy of Osensei and aikido as a means of reconciling the world and bringing about peace. However, his aikido is devastating, it looks really soft and mellow, until you take ukemi for him, that is.

    My point here is that these two factors, a belief system of spiritual harmony with an outlook of love and protection for all things and seriously effective technique, are not separate, disparate concepts. Nisson sensei's waza has shown me, on too numerous occasions, that these can be inseparable, non-dualistic, if you will.


    BTW, Saotome sensei has always amazed me. Everytime I've attended his camps in D.C. and elsewhere, he talks about love and harmony and does these incredibly beautiful movements. Then there are the seminars he teaches at my dojo, Bond St. Dojo, in New York City. Nothing too pretty about the waza on these occasions. Just crush the center. I recall Sensei offering to teach us his own street fighting course. $3,000. and three weeks later, nobody can mess with you.

  5. #20
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    Default Saotome Sensei

    "And it may very well be the case that an instructor will train different people differently. But I've never seen an instructor that teaches the touchy-feely stuff on the one hand, and the hard core, "throw-him-into-a-brick-wall" style on the other."

    Try training with Saotome Sesnei if you get a chance. I was in the DC dojo in its first years. Saotome Sensei would come in and do a week or more of classes that seemed derived almost totally from T'ai Chi. Just about the time that everybody was starting to really get really loose and relaxed you'd come into class and he'd hit you with a front snap kick when you attacked with shomen-uchi. Class would then resemble some sort of karate class. Sensei's Aikido is impossible to pin down. He can be subtle to the point that you can't even see what he is doing and and explosive to the point where you don't do anything but atemi techniques that whole class. Sensei can run the whole range of technical possibility at will, he's not stuck in one mode or the other.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  6. #21
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    Default Terry Dobson Sensei and Dancing

    Greetings,

    I have found in my study of Korean Karate and Self-Defense (which incorporates techniques from Yoshinkan and Tomiki Aikido systems) that Aiki moves can be devastating. However, I have also been a fan of the message of O'Sensei...that Aiki techniques can be a means to reconcile with the universe. It can be a 'Budo of Love'. With that out of the way, let me say that before one can use these techniques as a 'way to peace' one MUST be competent in their use as a effective form of control and if necessary devastation.

    Terry Dobson Sensei, was an individual I discovered too late in my life. I have read recollections of Ellis Armdur, (please excuse the spelling, as I am doing this right at the 'box'.) of Dobson Sensei at the Bond Street Dojo, and many other accounts of him, including his owm writings.

    It appears that he went trhough many stages in his evolution as a human being. He went from being a a hard core marine, bar bouncer to operator ( in the loosest sense) of a dojo to a teacher, author, and lecturer. His views did change over time. But one thing I am fairly positive on is that his quote on Aikido being a matter of 'life and death' was NOT meant in the literal sense, though it could be taken on that level, but on a higher plane.

    He, I think, saw it as the salvation of HIS life. Just my perspective on that issue, as it has been raised.

    I own a tape of his last seminar in California, where he talked his 'shtick' of love and peace and re-direction and the new way he had become a human being in the finest sense. But, you know what, watch him walk around the room, helping others, and he performs the technique he has just taught, in the most flawless manner, and shortest time possible in a truly effective combat vein.

    He applied a wrist technique on a white belt, who never knew what hit him. This is NOT to debase Dobson Sensei and his message, but to show you that I was able to observe that the combat mastery of a simple technique, which he, in his development, moved beyond, into a new place, one of love and peace.

    More point is that one MUST 'walk the talk' first, and then one can say what they want about on the philisophical level.

    Just my 2 cents worth!
    Regards,
    TommyK
    Tom Militello
    "You can't hide on the mats." Terry Dobson sensei.

  7. #22
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    There is also old saying “You fight in the way you train”

    So even if instructor shows “sharp edges “ but students never apply it in their daily practice they’ll never be able to use it in dangerous situation.
    But most important thing is, if Aikido training prepare you mentally to situation of strong stress and possible panic on the street? How to control your adrenaline shot? How to stay cool in front of real aggression?

    I don’t think so.

    Most of aiki folks think they will use kokyunage to protect attacker
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  8. #23
    Daniel Pokorny Guest

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    Originally posted by Budoka
    "I can't be the only person who has trained in a dojo thinking this guy is going to get himself killed if he tries this for real. You know, I spent plenty of times working in clubs and bars to get to use what little I've learned in a real setting where hurting the attacker is a definite no-no; these are your customers after all. And I've seen Jeet Kune Do people, Tae Kwan Do people, and other martial arts trained individuals fight with bouncers, fight with bartenders, fight with each other for any number of stupid reasons, usually hopped up on alcohol, and possibly on some illicit drugs; these are not just sloppy drunken thugs.

    Against that setting, I'm asking does the dance work? Because in the scope of random thoughts, if you think you're learning "tools to save your life" (to quote Terry Dobson), and what you're learning is how to dance rather than how to deal with committed attackers, well, I think you see my point. . ."
    -- Jared Riggs
    Jared,

    Indeed, I see your point. Given that, the question must now be analyzed on a more individual case by case basis. What may work for me may not work for another. A lot of factors come into play regarding the training and experience of the individual.

    It seems to me buy your posts that what you are really questioning is your own ability to use your learned skills. I think a lot of us wonder this, whether we admit it or not is another issue altogether. It's an impossible question to answer in general terms though. In your given scenario, my sensei would definitely "make the dance work". As for myself, I don't know if I've attained that level of skill without resorting to methods more familiar to me..... each case would be different.

    Does the dance work? - Depends on who's dancing....

    Regards,

    Daniel Pokorny

  9. #24
    Daniel Pokorny Guest

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    Originally posted by szczepan
    There is also old saying “You fight in the way you train”

    So even if instructor shows “sharp edges “ but students never apply it in their daily practice they’ll never be able to use it in dangerous situation.
    But most important thing is, if Aikido training prepare you mentally to situation of strong stress and possible panic on the street? How to control your adrenaline shot? How to stay cool in front of real aggression?

    I don’t think so.

    Most of aiki folks think they will use kokyunage to protect attacker
    Szczepan,

    If you are not learning those things of which you write, then perhaps you should find an art more suited to your level of comprehension. Aikido training contains all the elements you refer to as not being there. Whether you see them or not is of course, another matter altogether.

    Regards,

    Daniel Pokorny

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Daniel Pokorny
    Szczepan,

    If you are not learning those things of which you write, then perhaps you should find an art more suited to your level of comprehension. Aikido training contains all the elements you refer to as not being there. Whether you see them or not is of course, another matter altogether.

    Regards,

    Daniel Pokorny [/B]
    Could you name please few techniques that develop those elements in aikido training I was refer to as not being there?

    regardz
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  11. #26
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    gamenski iriminage ichi, ni

    If it doesn't feel realistic, have your partner do gamenski with a jo....or grab your favorite 3rd dan in shotokan who now trains aikido as your partner....either way, it should up the realism quotient.....
    Ron Tisdale

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    Thumbs up

    I find that doing knife technique with one of my seniors, who has trained in Kali and Jeet Kune Do, is always an effective way of intoducing a new level of awareness to my training.
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

  13. #28
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    Originally posted by Kolschey
    I find that doing knife technique with one of my seniors, who has trained in Kali and Jeet Kune Do, is always an effective way of intoducing a new level of awareness to my training.
    So how do you guys practice “sharp edges “ ?

    regardz
    regardz

    Szczepan Janczuk

  14. #29
    DJM Guest

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    I was thinking about this subject the other evening, even got so far as starting to write a response, only to have my system crash!
    I've been thinking of how, why and if Aikido could need, or even desire, the ability - and fortitude of will - to be able to kill.

    To quote Mr Ledyard, on the Attitude thread in the Member's Lounge:


    I read a book by Funakoshi sensei about his life training in Karate. One thing I remembered more than anything else was his assertion (paraphrasing) that if it isn't important enough for one or the other of you to die for then you shouldn't be fighting. Pretty good advice.
    __________________
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Bellevue, WA
    I felt that the above quote should apply equally to Aikido, but could be turned on it's head as well. If you do end up fighting, you should be prepared for you, or your opponent, to die..
    I'd like, at this point, to differentiate between a de-escalation situation - where you're essentially calming the agressor down, by words or controlled action, and can walk away if necessary - and a fight, where you have no choice but to 'stand your ground' - either because you're physically trapped, or you're defending someone else.. At this point, even as the situation develops, you need to commit to what you have to do, or forget about fighting. If you're commited to your defence, and that of others, there can be no room for error - you either succeed in your goal or fail.
    I'm reminded of two things here. One is the image of Jedi (bear with me - it is relevant!) walking round with lightsabers, the ultimate 'I draw this, and one of us doesn't walk away' deterrent. The second is a saying I heard/read somewhere, not sure who the original source was. 'If you cut my skin, I cut your flesh. If you cut my flesh, I cut your bones. If you cut my bones, I kill you.'
    This idea of escalation is one which, if your defence is commited, will develop naturally I feel. The harder your aggressor's attack, the more energy will be redirected against them. If you're unable to end the fight with an immobilisation, or even unconsciousness, and the person, or persons, keep attacking - probably harder and harder - the result, perhaps not inevitably - but likely - is death. Yours, or theirs...
    Which comes back to strength of will (and lightsabers ). I would suspect, if you can demonstrate this strength, this determination, it will be read by your opponent. If this gives them pause, or even ends the fight, it will be be all the more likely you'll be able to stop the fight before that very last of desired endings.
    So, if the above is accurate (may not be - I'd welcome corrections, and comments ), I would suggest this is the best of arguments that an Aikidoka should be trained to be able to kill - that they find it easier not to, and that there's no such thing as a lightsaber...

    Probably 3p worth there
    Peace,
    David

  15. #30
    Daniel Pokorny Guest

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    Originally posted by szczepan

    Could you name please few techniques that develop those elements in aikido training I was refer to as not being there?

    regardz [/B]
    szczepan,

    Any and all techniques executed while engaged in weapons randori with senior students (and sometimes sensei), will surpass all the elements you mentioned! This is especially true when sensei joins the group of attackers! - Ouch!

    Regards,

    Daniel Pokorny

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