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Thread: Old School Kendo

  1. #31
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    I didn't realize we weren't "all getting along." I enjoyed the discussion very much. Made me recall a lot of kendo background. I just wish there were some other kendoka out here in the sticks of Chicago's western suburbs. If so, we could play instead of just writing about it.

    One last double-dog duh!

  2. #32
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    Don:

    Were we having an argument?
    Earl Hartman

  3. #33
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    Who, me? Argue? You must have mistaken me for someone else...

  4. #34
    yamamatsuryu Guest

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    Who mentioned argue I save those for the Juko Kai

  5. #35
    Stuart D Guest

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    This is a really interesting thread. I've always heard about old kendo but never to this depth.

    Some of the references to riot-police kendo reminded me of things that my sensei does if people aren't being aggressive enough. I've seen him take some folks down, pin them, and remove their men. It's nothing serious though. It's more of a reminder to toughen up and be more forward.

    Also, the mention of tsuki being discouraged is very interesting to me. I've seen tsuki used just like any other hit. Use it if it's appropriate. Where have you guys seen it discouraged?


    -Stuart Davis

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Tsuki

    Also, the mention of tsuki being discouraged is very interesting to me. I've seen tsuki used just like any other hit. Use it if it's appropriate. Where have you guys seen it discouraged?

    At the kendo dojo I train in presently, tsuki is reserved for those at or above the rank of First Dan.
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

  7. #37
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    In Japan, I rarely saw the tsuki used by anyone under 3rd dan level. It is a difficult technique to do properly, and the possibility of injury is so great that only people whose fundamentals were strong and whose tenouchi was up to it, which usually means someone 3rd dan and above, would use it. Needless to say, any junior who used it on his seniors was usually lookin' for a serious ass-whuppin'. I don't think there are any hard and fast rules, and each dojo is different, but there seemed to be a tacit understanding that it was a technique reserved for the upper ranks.

    It was in a US dojo where the use of the point was discouraged. I have never seen or heard of such a thing in Japan.
    Earl Hartman

  8. #38
    Stuart D Guest

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    Sorry if I gave the impression that everyone and their brother uses tsuki. At the dojo I'm part of, tsuki isn't taught to, used by, or used on anyone below a certain dan rank. I'm not sure what that is since I'm not there yet.

    I thought it was being said that tsuki use by anyone was discouraged.

    -Stuart Davis

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    .

  10. #40
    KendoShiai Guest

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    Sorry to interrupt, but you guys are making me cry missing my old Kendo School (yes here in the US). This is exactly the way we use to train. But only after you have been there a while. We would kick, hit, head butt, wrap arms through the opponent’s shinai, remove the Men, through you through the Dojo Doors (yes closed), and absolutely insult you. As far as training the Tsuki point. We would teach all to target it but if a junior would try it on a senior they would usually end up either on the floor or with a huge headache. This is kind of like pre WWII Kendo except they would get violent. But I think that 14th Century or so Kendo would have been the worst because the Bogu had not been perfected to our modern extent. Also they would go for either Kote point as well as the feet. Have to remember that then they were training to KILL.

  11. #41
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    Question In the US?

    Eddie,

    What Dojo in the US are you from? I'd be interested to know of a Dojo stateside that practices this way!

    Who's the sensei?

    Is there a webpage?

    Thanks in advance!
    -Mike

  12. #42
    KendoShiai Guest

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    My Original School was in Memphis TN. My Sensei was Harry Dach Sensei. I trained with him there for about 7 years then I moved here to Orlando FL. I have been trying to get a school together here but with no luck. Seems that no one wants to learn Kendo here (at least that I can find). Memphis never did have a web page for the Kendo but I do think I remember a page that one of his Iaido students put up. If I can find it I will post it here. As far as where he learned was in Iwakuni Japan under Nakahama Sensei and the Sassebo Police. The last time I talked to my old Sensei they had fallen to hard times and had few students turning out and a lack of a place to train.

  13. #43
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    Hello,

    I mean no disrespect with the following question, I'm simply a little confused.

    Why can't a junior use tsuki against a senior?

    Tim Fong

  14. #44
    KendoShiai Guest

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    Well in our school it was not a matter of being allowed, most of them simply did not have either the speed or accuracy to make the thrust. They usually will end up telegraphing the technique and being stopped by a senior’s keen eye and their own technique. They were allowed to try though and sometimes even encouraged.

  15. #45
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    The reasons a junior will get messed up if he tries to use the tsuki on a senior:

    1) A person who cannot do the tsuki properly is very dangerous, since if you miss, you can really seriously injure someone. The other kendo strikes hurt, and you can get bruised if a clumsy idiot hits you in the wrong place, but there is little or no danger of real injury. With the tsuki there is. If you cannot do the technique properly you shouldn't do it. Trying to do it before you are ready shows a lack of respect for the opponent and the technique itself.

    2) A junior who is arrogant enough to try to use a dangerous, high level technique before he is ready for it will be taught proper manners, which usually involves an ass whuppin'.

    3) Unless it is a match, the senior is usually not trying his hardest to beat the junior. Rather, he is working with the junior to help him improve his technique. Therefore, the senior does not go all-out; rather, he will often give the junior openings or attack at half-speed so that the junior can learn. In such a situation, if the junior is stupid and arrogant enough to think that he can really take the senior, and tries to use the tsuki, it shows that he does not understand how to practice. So the senoir will show him what's what.

    However, this is a matter of degree. If a 1st dan tries to use the tsuki on, say, a 4th or 5th dan, he will be instructed on proper behavior, either gently or harshly, depending on the senior's mood. However, once a person is above the 3rd dan level, his fundamentals are usually good enough for him to use the tsuki. So if he is fencing against someone who is "only" a 4th dan or a 5th dan, that is, with someone whom he has a reasonable chance of defeating, there is no "rule" against using the tsuki. If a 3rd or 4th dan were to use it against a 6th, 7th, or 8th dan opponent, this would not be bad manners, but the 3rd or 4th dan player should expect his opponent to turn up the heat a notch.

    Basically, everyone knows that a tsuki carries more potential danger of serious injury that any other technique. So, when it is used, people should expect the kendo to become much more serious and to not be surprised in things turn more "violent" (perhpas "intense" is a better way of putting it).

    The tsuki is like the "harite" (face slap) in sumo. It is a legitimate technique, but is hurts a great deal and is very dangerous. So people sometimes get mad if someone uses it too much.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 17th September 2001 at 21:05.
    Earl Hartman

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