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Thread: Kendo, the 18th-Century Way?

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    Default Kendo, the 18th-Century Way?

    Hi. I'm a kendoist, and I've been wondering about something for a long time. One of Hyakutake-sensei's comments got me thinking maybe it's time I articulated my question and asked for some feedback. Sensei wrote:

    "...I can't compare either Kendo or Kumdo with actual swordsmanship. They may have resembled it in the past but not any more. Both have drifted well away from the biomechanics of using a real sword into a specialized facet of swordmanship."

    A couple of points up front. I love kendo and make no apologies about it; I plan on playing kendo for the rest of my life. I've also begun the study of iaido, through the setei, and hopefully this will also develop into Muso Shinden Ryu.

    When I first started to spend time at resources like e-budo, I didn't really know what a koryu was. Now I know and respect it - it was important for me to learn that koryu are not businesses, they are families. It's doubtful I'll ever participate in a koryu (unless you count MSR), as it's doubtful I'll ever live in Japan. And I'm okay with that. I like having a wide range of gendai interests - I also somehow find time for karate/boxing and judo. (And swing dancing, but that's some other thread...)

    I have heard a lot of talk about kendo having drifted away from the way it was originally practiced, as sensei stated above. Sometimes this leads to snottiness or superiority on the part of non-kendoists or koryuists who insist that what they practice is better than kendo. I hope we can avoid that in this thread and instead concentrate on the constructive. I guess what I'm taking far too long to say is:

    What do you think? If kendo were to be practiced today as it was when it was first developed in the mid 1700s, how would it be practiced? What would be different? Where would the emphasis be? What would the curriculum be like? Can we ever really get back to that?

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    Default hmmm

    There are a lot of issues here, and no, practicing kendo the 18thC way is not the answer. If I understand what you are trying to get at, I think the real answer is more how YOU want to practice kendo.

    -Each Dojo is different, some sensei like to practice an older style, and some a more competitive style. You choose your style.
    -As an indivdual competitor, you can choose to practice competitive technique or not. One way will let you win matches the other will not.

    I can tell you, that most people I have talked to about kendo are very interested in its history and traditional practice. But outside of prearrange match to test some "stuff" we read about, I don't entertain for one minute that pushing Kendo towards its tripping, punching, men ripping, do choking past is going to be good for its Budo'ness. There is simply enought in it right now to more then challange my skills for the foreseeable future.
    Nulli Secundus

    Ed Chart

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    Default See, but...

    I agree, Ed. I should note that I'm perfectly fine with the way I practice kendo and the guidance my senseis and sempai give me. We practice for shiai but we also practice for health and technique and it seems we value kata more than some other places; we also encourage the pursuit of iaido when one has a good grasp of findamentals. I guess what I'm more curious about is that people keep saying kendo has moved away from its original purpose and practice and I'm just quite curious to know what they mean by that. What's different? And I'm not sure it has anything to do with "tripping, punching, men ripping" and "do choking," (that might be more pre-war than 18th C) but more to do with taisabiki and stuff like that.

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    Don Cunningham Guest

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    The most interesting aspect of Zen Nippon Kendo Renmai (ZKNR) kendo for me was the martial art etiquette and tradition still included in the modern form. I've tried the pre-WWII rough stuff, and some of it appealed to me as well. I also like the competitive aspects of modern kendo.

    As a former competitive judoka, I like judo shiai and randori. Despite judo's roots in traditional jujutsu, much of the martial arts culture was eliminated. I believe that Dr. Kano did this on purpose, considering the Westernization of Japan during the period in which judo was founded. I realize they retained the jujutsu techniques, but they also "modernized" many of the external aspects of training, probably to reflect the thinking of this period and to make judo more appealing to an international audience.

    I don't criticize this about judo, but just mention it to explain my attraction to kendo. I will always consider myself a judoka first and foremost. I love the sport and judo culture. However, I found many nuances of kendo practice to be quite interesting because of the emphasis on proper etiquette and tradition. For example, the ways equipment is put on and how the cords are tied have meaning. There is a correct way and an incorrect way for most every little detail.

    In comparison, judoka generally don't care how one puts their judogi on or how it is folded. Even though there is a traditional way to fold and store a judogi, most just throw them in a gym bag. I do this as well because it is not an important consideration for judo practice. Yet, I would never just bundle up my kendo equipment and toss it in a bag because how one cares for their gear is an important aspect to kendo training. This Japanese cultural attitude retained in kendo was most enlightening to me and explained many things about other aspects of living and working in Japan. Although I learned many other things through my practice of judo, I still found this attention to detail in kendo to be quite fascinating.
    Last edited by Don Cunningham; 20th August 2001 at 17:00.

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    Default Re: See, but...

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    I guess what I'm more curious about is that people keep saying kendo has moved away from its original purpose and practice and I'm just quite curious to know what they mean by that. What's different? And I'm not sure it has anything to do with "tripping, punching, men ripping" and "do choking," (that might be more pre-war than 18th C) but more to do with taisabiki and stuff like that.
    Good point, and I ask the very same question! I think another problem though is defining what the technical origin really was (pre-war..okay..so exactly how far back then?). hmm wish I could read Japanese!
    Nulli Secundus

    Ed Chart

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    Default More constructive...

    Well, Ed, Don, et al., doesn't look like we're getting too much of a reply here. I was hoping Hyaku-sensei would weigh in, but I think he's still soaking up rays in Bali, and more power to him!

    Let's start by trying to answer our own questions. In what way is kendo different now than it might have been in the past? I have some theories.

    1) For starters, in the past you probably practiced your ryu's kata and suburi with shinken and bokken, and then kendo was something you did after you mastered the basics. These days, the situation is reversed - after you have mastered the basics of shinai kendo, you are encouraged to place more emphasis on kata and pursue iaido on the side. Either model is probably applicable, but now you have shinai kendo for its own sake. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's another thread probably titled "The Value of Combative Sport" or something.

    2) Because the shinai is shaped the way it is, it encourages its users to use it in ways that a shinken could not be used (not without difficulty). It is true that there are small, quick waza with shinken - even that small quick rising and sharply falling cut to shomen can be accomplished with shinken, ditto small kote strikes. But I think perhaps kendoists are encouraged (by themselves, not by their sensei) to "flick" more rather than cut in a realistic fashion. With some of these, the attack would be with the shinogi, not a cut.

    So, given that, "kendo the 18th C way" would include equal or more emphasis on kata and a blatant renunciation of shiai "tricks." A model I use for myself sometimes is: if I can't do it with my iai-to, I try not to do it. Simple test, non? Pick up iai-to or shinken and see if you can do with it all the things you do in kendo. The footwork is different, you're not hopping around as much, the waza are different. Ever tried it?

    Hey, Don. I like what you wrote. I was thinking of you when I read this from the guide at www.kendo-usa.org, the official web site of the All U.S. Kendo Federation:

    "It is said that Kendo begins and ends with rei-gi, so a natural place for this guide to start is with a discussion of rei-gi. The physical aspect of rei-gi is represented by the rei as one enters the dojo or shiai-jo, thus starting each practice by the display of respect for the place of practice and its members. The end is by repeating the process thanking everyone for the practice as one leaves the dojo. The natural outgrowth of this is that same manners carry over into all aspects the Kenshi’s daily life.

    "The rei-gi of Kendo is correct behavior in all dealings with other people as you work through your daily activities. In Kendo, a failure in this behavior is a moral failure in the Kenshi’s character and training. At the practice level, Kendo is an art form the purpose of which is to defeat one's opponent in a combat of mind against mind and strength against strength. Without the rules of etiquette from beginning to end, the Kendo becomes merely a bashing of the opponent with the only goal to win with any means possible. Kendo with rei-gi remains an art and the opponent is yourself to overcome. With this in mind one is thankful to your partner for having struck you, this exposes your weakness and allows you to improve. Thus practice is an exchange of technique and the Kenshi must always be polite to the person giving you such a gift."

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    Default Big "Amen"

    Dear Charlie:

    "...) Because the shinai is shaped the way it is, it encourages its users to use it in ways that a shinken could not be used (not without difficulty). It is true that there are small, quick waza with shinken - even that small quick rising and sharply falling cut to shomen can be accomplished with shinken, ditto small kote strikes. But I think perhaps kendoists are encouraged (by themselves, not by their sensei) to "flick" more rather than cut in a realistic fashion. With some of these, the attack would be with the shinogi, not a cut...."

    I wish I could paste this across the forehead of our head instructor at the Kumdo school at which I practice. The problem is that in order to support the sport side of the class (which is most of the students) focus is maintained on these light, fast, snappy strikes which are swell for competition but must nearly be unlearned when considering the use of the sword as a weapon. I would bet dollars to donuts that Net members who are reading this right now and attend various TAI KAI or cutting competitions don't use snappy quick movements when executing a cut. Seems like this is much the same issue as when sport-oriented MA compare what they do to that of full-contact fighters, ne? Of course, the arguement is always made that sparring with juk-to (J. Shinai) is always of benefit for inculcating proper distance, timing and technique. Can't argue there. But I think sometimes that "sticks are sticks" and "swords are swords" gets lost a lot of times.

    Best Wishes,
    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Modern kendo can be compared to Western fencing in its development. Originally, practice weapons and protective equipment were developed in kendo simply to make it possible to practice with a certain amount of freedom without getting everybody killed or injured. However, the emphasis was always on using the practice weapons to learn how to use a real sword.

    Similarly, the foil and the epee were originally developed as training weapons for learning how to use a small sword, which was the weapon that gentlemen wore as part of their everyday dress.

    In Europe, as in Japan, once the sword ceased to be 1) a battlefield weapon, and 2) an article of everyday dress, and once duelling fell out of fashion and there was less immediate need for being ready to use your sword in self defense, people trained to learn to use the practice weapon itself and as an inevitable consequence its use became less and less realistic. Also, duels between gentlemen were governed by mutually agreed upon rules and etiquette.

    It seems to me that it should be fairly easy to speculate what kendo was like "in the old days": just look at the koryu and how the sword is used.

    One of the problems with this sort of discussion is what your definition of "kendo" is. Is it swordfighting in general or is it ZNKR shiai kendo? Without defining these terms, a discussion is well nigh impossible.
    Earl Hartman

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    Dear Earl:

    "...One of the problems with this sort of discussion is what your definition of "kendo" is. Is it swordfighting in general or is it ZNKR shiai kendo? Without defining these terms, a discussion is well nigh impossible...."

    Excellent point.
    I had recently participated in a discussion in which I think this very point was pivotal. I think it is important to remember that there are at least two levels of understanding when it comes to using various terms and labels in the MA.

    One level is the public domain where terms such as "Taekwondo," "Karate," "Aikido" and even "Kendo" take on pretty broad meaning and application.

    Another level is a bit more sophisticated wherein the same term is used but the application is intended as much more specific (ie. Karate=Shotokan; Taekwondo=Chung Moo Kwan; Aikido=Iwama)

    I suspect that we run into a lot of trouble when some terms are mis-matched to intent such that "Kendo" is used to identify something more accurately labeled "ken-jutsu" or even "batto-jutsu". In my own particular case I practice Kum-bop ("sword form") which can be both a sub-category of Kum Sool (the Korean counter-part to Japanese Ken-jutsu) as well as Kumdo (the Korean counterpart to Kendo). Since I have no interest in chasing another guy around the floor and hitting him with a stick (nor in having him do the same to me) I am most properly identified as practicing Kum Sool. This is affirmed and supported by the fact that I also teach Hapkido of which Kum Sool is one of the six traditional weapons and for which there is no sport application.
    Nothing I have said however --- nothing--- has ever stopped some guy from watching what I am doing and promptly commenting that he was unaware that I practiced "Kendo".

    Best Wishes,
    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Default Interesting.

    Good points, guys.

    Earl: two quick questions. One, when you wrote:

    "One of the problems with this sort of discussion is what your definition of 'kendo' is. Is it swordfighting in general or is it ZNKR shiai kendo? Without defining these terms, a discussion is well nigh impossible."

    Could you elaborate on that? Also, when it comes to "looking at a koryu," how is that done? Well, more to the point - how is that done for us Americans. I do have access to MSR iaido. Good starting point, you think?

    Bruce: off-topic question. I have really enjoyed what I've seen of hapkido. Besides your site, can you recommend any good sites that describe its development and techniques?

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    Default On the Spot

    Dear Charlie:

    ".....Bruce: off-topic question. I have really enjoyed what I've seen of hapkido. Besides your site, can you recommend any good sites that describe its development and techniques?..."

    Crap. Now I've done it. I really hate it when I get myself into these situations.

    OK, but a couple of caveats first.

    1.) Everybody -- EVERBODY -- that you will visit will have their own particular agenda to press. This also includes yours-truely so take what I say as reflecting my own personal prejudices and purposes for my involvement in MA training.

    2.) Many of the people that you visit will tell you that everyone else is bad or wrong and only THEIR way of doing things is correct and authentic.


    Here are some people to be aware of and my reasoning behind it.

    1.) Dr Kimm, He-young, a life-time student of Korean martial traditions, author of at least 7 major works (and dozens of papers and articles) on Korean martial traditions such as Kuk Sool Won, Hapkido, and HanMuDo which is Dr Kimms own particular take on Korean martial traditions. His work is by-far the best documented and supported with personal training with/under the many people he cites and discusses.

    2.) M Seo, In Suh, originator of Kuk Sool Won and current head of both the World Kuk Sool Won and the Korean Kido Assn. While most people have worked to identify and clarify the connection between Hapkido and its Japenese roots in Daito-ryu AJJ, M Seo has pressed equally hard to recognize the Chinese influences as well. His authored work will a bit crude in production reflects a sound foundation in Korean tradition.

    3.) M Lee, Joo Bang, originator of HwaRangDo and current head of the World HwaRangDo Assn. As with M Seo, M Lee has sought to give equal balance to both the Japanese and the Chinese traditions. While I personally have isses with many of the claims M Lee makes, I have the deepest respect for his contributions to the Korean martail traditions. Watching a performance of HwaRang technique only affirms that this is MA of a very high caliber. His original trilogy published in 1979 is, I think, up for republication and he has recently producedf an entire line of tapes and books.

    4.) M Jae, Abraham, current head of the Han Pul art here in the US (Santa Maria, Calif). Han Pul is probably the closet one will get to a decent representation of pre-Japanese Korean emptyhand tradition but is not very well-known outside of a small circle of pratitioners. As you can imagine the Chinese influece is VERY apparent.

    5.) I am going to lump a whole group of people into a single group. These are the high profile 1st generation folks that most people think of when they consider modern Hapkido. Most of these practiced with GM Choi, Yong Sul or one of his immediate students. They include but are not limited to M Ji, Han Jae (Sin Moo Hapkido), M Myung, Kwang Sik (World Hapkido Federation), M Myung, Jae-num (International Hapkido Federation), M Han, Bong Soo (International Hapkido Federation -- US Version), M Park (Mu Sool Kwan Hapkido), M Lim (Jungki Kwan Hapkido) and many others. M Myung, Kwang Sik has an entire line of tapes and books which is sound, effective Hapkido albeit from a heavily Japanese-influenced biomechanic nearly bordering on Judo/jujutsu.

    6.) I am also gonna lump a whole group of people together as second generation which would include John Pelligrini (ICHF), M Wollmerhauser (American Hapkido Assn), M Don Burns (US Hapkido Assn), M Hackworth (USKorean MA Instuctors Assn) and M Jr West (US Korean Martial Arts Assn). (There are also some alternative folks like M Michael D'Alba who have elected to move off in their own direction. Being a traditionalist I don't have much connection there but many people consider the work of these pioneers rewarding and satisfying.)

    7.) Finally, let me say that in my opinion there are some people who are most probably not worth the time and trouble and I throw Scott Shaw, M Rim and Master Sheya into this group. Just my opinion.

    I have absolutely no idea if any of this of any help. Let me know if this was the information you were looking for or if I am off the track.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Bruce W Sims
    www.midwesthapkido.com

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    Kendo, as most people understand it today, is a modern combative sport, somewhat like boxing, that allows people to compete in a situation that is governed by rules. Once there are rules about what you can and cannot do in order to defeat the other man, it can be legitimately asked if what you are doing is in any way "combative" in the true sense. A tough, gritty sport that takes a lot of guts and which carries the possibility of pain and injury, yes. Potentially life threatening? In most cases, no.

    Becasue of kendo rules, kendoka often allow themselves to be struck with the shinai in areas that are not legitimate targets in kendo, such as the knuckles, the forearm, the thigh, or the junction of the neck and shoulder. Often, this is because the opponent is clumsy, but just as often it is because knowing that a point will not be scored, the kendoka does not exert every effort to keep the enemy's "sword" from comng into contact with his body. This is especially true in tsuba zeriai. Often, a kendoka will initiate an attack not worrying about ai-uchi because if he knows he can get in his strike even a nanosecond before the other fellow, he will get the point even if he also gets hit almost at the same time, or that neither stroke will count. Or, if the strike is not done precisely with the monouchi, he can ignore it.

    I was once sparring with a fellow who, instead of warding my men strikes, would slip them the way a boxer slips a punch by moving the top of his head out of the way at the last second so that my shinai would fall on the junction of his neck and shoulder. This happend so often that I got pretty pissed, and so the next time he did it I simply followed through, and as a result I struck him a good solid blow right on the base of his neck, THWACKKK!! He got really mad and said "Hey! You can't do that!" Oh yeah? In kendo, no point. With a real sword, his head is on the floor.

    Becasue of the rules, kendo allows for a shocking degree of sloppy technique that would simply be impossible with a real weapon, since people feel protected by the rules. I am not saying that kendo training is not tough (it is) or that it is not valuable as a character building exercise (it is), or that it doesn't help train a person for a combative situation if it is approached correctly (it does). However, it is no longer "real" swordfighting.
    Earl Hartman

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    Default Right.

    But I get confused when you say, "kendo is no longer 'real swordfighting,'" because, unless I'm misunderstanding your definition of kendo, it was never "real swordfighting." I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding what you mean when you say "What is the definition of kendo?"

    I've run into the kind of stuff you're talking about, as well. It's a (somewhat natural) abuse of the rules. Whenever you have rules, you will have abuses and shortcuts. (Good for you for clocking that fellow in the neck!)

    So, if we want kendo to "keep it real," as it were, we would penalize students from, for example, being in tsuba zerai and letting the opponent's shinai hang on the neck or shoulder. Funny enough, I'm seeing more judges separate kendo players when they start leaning on each other like that. And ai-uchi, well, that's a tough one. Some people see ai-uchi as an acceptable or unavoidable outcome in a sword fight. (Is that last comment a can of worms for another thread?)

    P.S. Bruce - thanks for the leads.

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    Yagyu Sensei of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu will often call Yagyu Shinkage Ryu "kendo". People who know modern kendo but not koryu, of course, would not understand him. But he is using the term in one of its truest senses, to mean "the way of the sword", which Yagyu Shinkage Ryu most definitely is.

    Anyway, this thread is called "Kendo, the 18th century Way". Well, was kendo kendo in the 18th century? Depends on your definition. I think someone was asking: "what was kendo like back in the day"? Well, I think that it was a lot rougher, a lot more violent, there were a lot more injuries, there were far fewer (if any) rules, and the idea of a two-out-of-three-pont match was probably not yet in existence. Sort of like boxing in the old days, which allowed grappling, throwing, rabbit punching, and anything else, and where matches went on, sometimes for 50 rounds or more, until one combatant dropped and couldn't go on. Nobody sued anybody back then if they got poked in the eye with a stick. But was that "heiho/hyoho", "kenjutsu" "gekken", or "kendo"?

    If you believe that kendo means specifically modern sportive kendo, then you are right, it was never "real" swordfighting, and this whole discussion is pointless. Or, at the very least, the terms of the discussion need to be defined.
    Earl Hartman

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    Default Ah.

    What I meant by real swordfighting is that only a real sword fight is a real sword fight.

    Any attempt to practice the actual sword fight will be a simulation. So by definition, "practice fighting with shinai and bogu" - whether it was the kenjutsu of the late 1700s, the pre-WW II gekken or contemporary sport kendo - is not a real sword fight. Nothing but a real sword fight is a real sword fight, just as nothing but a chicken is a chicken; a turkey is not a chicken. "Sparring" in any discipline is never the real thing, no matter how much you try.

    I mean, I see your points, though. Perhaps a better name for this thread would have been "What must kendo do to retain its soul?" or "its roots?"

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