Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu

[Ellis Amdur]

Brian - I wrote:

I get the difference between what a shihan chooses to explain and what a student would--on the internet, no less. Nonetheless, how does one know what is proprietary unless one asks. And why participate in a discussion group on koryu unless there is something to discuss? The questions on lineage, legitimacy, location of dojos and 'what is a soke' have been done to death. Without something substantive, what's the point?

What's the point of a discussion group where all that is discussed is pablum? If you go to the CQB groups, here and elsewhere, there is substantive discussion on technique, motivation, etc. But all to often, koryu are treated as unfathomable. I look at the nukitsuke in question and wonder about the stress on the wrist upon impact. Do they rely on always finding an opening, something soft to cut and that particular configuration enables one to cut with more accuracy? Is there something about the alignment of the tsuka that protects the wrist?

My larger point is this. E-budo is not what it once was. There are old discussions of such substance that I either archived them or referred them to my students. That is rarely so. New people are going to make the same "mistakes" we once did (heck, I once offered a dojocho to trade a new bokken for an heirloom of that dojo I trained in, because it suited me so well--there is NO mistake a newby could make more egregious than some of mine!). To simply dismiss honest inquiry with, "ask your teacher," or "join, submit and someday hope your teacher explains things" shuts down dialogue and this group will founder amongst a few people repeating the same things back to one another.

And not everything enacted in a ryu is so arcane that only a master might answer. For example, we have a particular way of securing the sageo to the saya. If someone were to ask why, I could care less if one of my students answered, even if he'd only trained for three months--as long as the answer was correct.

[Brian Owens]

Ellis, I understand your point. But this is the Koryu History and Traditions section, and I don't know that getting into specifics of technique really fits into that concept. I also know that there has been a general "rule" or "principle" for as long as I've been here, one that Hyaku explicitly states in the Sword Arts sub-forum: "Sorry but I will not condone any self training... This is "Sword Arts". Find a teacher!"

[Wakimono]

I've always wondered why the sageo in TSKSR is looped over the saya. Never gotten around to asking--even though that's not the way people wore swords, with the sageo drooping behind. So, in the spirit of inquiry, to TSKSR folks (and others who do the same in their tradition), why do this with the sageo? (If I don't get an answer here, I'm finally moved to inquire further, and will write to a few friends. I'll be surprised if I'm told that this is one of the deep secrets of the ryu).

Some info from "Muso Jikiden Eishin-Ryu - The Iai Forms and Oral Traditions of the Yamauchi Branch", by Yamakoshi Masaki & Tsukimoto Kazutake:

"It was common rule for high ranked samurai to let the sageo hang down over the scabbard to one's left side. Low ranked samurai used to wind and tie it on the scabbard in many particular ways. Samurai servants sometimes tied the sageo to the corde of the hakama."

I think this fits as history and tradition

[Ellis Amdur]

Brian - First thing that I did when I joined e-budo, way back when, was answer a set of questions about kiaijutsu. "Self training" - I'm not sure what that means, beyond, "I'm creating my own ryu--how can I borrow what you do to bolster my non-existent knowledge?"

Traditions? - as for me, the traditions of the school are the techniques of the school. I cannot talk about Toda-ha Buko-ryu or Araki-ryu without discussing technical issues. There's not much to say--or do - - -beyond that.

Wakimono - thank you for the answer. I'll follow up with some TSKSR friends, but in general, that's illuminating. I've always been rather incurious about these small details, but just recently have become interested.

It just seems odd to have a now, very under-populated discussion group, where just about any question beyond a historical lineage question would have the same type of answer:
1. Why do so many iaido ryu cut shomen rather than kesa - "find a teacher"
2. The movement signature of x ryu doesn't appear to be suitable for katchu-kempo - "join the ryu"
3. X-ryu's uketachi seems to cut in the air with their sword. The ma-ai doesn't appear to be able to reach the swordsman. Why is that. "Join X ryu"

Anyway, not my discussion section so do what you will. If anyone has questions for me, look down the list to the bookstore, regarding my books. I moderate those sections. As long as it concerns something I've written--or leads you to make a connection with something I've written, I'll answer as best as I can.
Ellis Amdur

[Cliff Judge]

I don't think all questions are created equal though. It is certainly one thing to be forthcoming to someone who is polite and friendly, and seems to understand enough about what they are asking about, that they are earnestly curious.

This thread may be another matter. Hessam (without questioning whether this is his full name in his culture of origin) posts two images and seems to demand an answer to the very vague question of "why?????" This doesn't seem like an honest and polite request for information to me. It might be....I would need to hear the poster elborate on his question to know.

[Josh Reyer]

Okay, I'll bite. Given the swordsman's hitoemi posture, why wouldn't he have the sword, wrist, and tsuka in that position?

[hatori]

I'm so sorry for my questions!
my name is Hessam Solte
but I can's speak very well! I'm only research about koryu. That's it.

[pgsmith]

I see exactly what you mean Ellis, and I agree mostly. I've had any number of interesting conversations with other folks about their art, and I always enjoy it. (OK, there were a couple that I didn't, but that's another story!) However, these questions did not strike me as being in the same vein at all. They were not from a practitioner asking why this school did things differently, they were from an obvious non-practitioner seeking technical answers that he wasn't likely to find on the internet. My answer was an attempt to let the questioner know that he would need to seek out an instructor and begin learning before things would start making any sense, but I obviously wasn't as clear in that as I thought I was.

I think that is a difference that's important; asking the most-senior teacher (presumably in person, or at least in a direct communication) versus throwing out the question on the Internet.

I don't think it's even that Brian. To me it's more along the lines of someone that doesn't even know that different schools simply do things differently is asking for technical answers to explain why that is. Without a sufficient frame of reference, it is almost impossible to form an understandable answer.

I'm so sorry for my questions!
my name is Hessam Solte
but I can's speak very well! I'm only research about koryu. That's it.

Greetings Mr. Solte,
It is a site requirement that you place your full name in your post. Add it to your signature, and it will be displayed automatically.
I see what you're attempting, and you would have been better off posting your questions in the Sword Arts forum. Perhaps one of the moderators will find time to split this out into a new thread for you.
I understand wanting to research. Given the amount of information that's easily available on the internet, it is easy to follow out your passions. However, I feel that you're asking for answers above your level of understanding, unless you actually have been practicing a koryu sword art under a qualified instructor for a sufficiently long enough time to gain some understanding? Based upon your questions I would assume not, but I've been wrong any number of times before in my life.

Please feel free to ask all the questions about kenjutsu you want as new threads in the sword arts section. However, try to think out your questions carefully so they aren't as easily misunderstood as the one's you've asked so far. Try to narrow down the amount of information that you're looking for in each question, and you're more likely to get multiple answers.

Cheers,

[giles]

And not everything enacted in a ryu is so arcane that only a master might answer. For example, we have a particular way of securing the sageo to the saya. If someone were to ask why, I could care less if one of my students answered, even if he'd only trained for three months--as long as the answer was correct.

I'll bite - I haven't seen that before, why do you do it that way?

[Brian Owens]

I'll bite - I haven't seen that before, why do you do it that way?

My guess is that it's so the kurigata doesn't get ripped out if the saya is pulled hard against the sageo; but it's just that...a guess.

[Ellis Amdur]

1. You are right - a little failsafe for the kurigata not getting ripped out.
2. It's also a little extra protection for the left hand in case one is foolish enough to jam your scabbard when pulling it back, while cutting, resulting in cutting through the saya. It's actually quite difficult for sharp steel to cut through silk . . .and therefore, I still have a thumb, the blade only cutting ½ through. (yes, I know, a skilled person would never make such a mistake, so such failsafe methods aren't necessary).

Ellis Amdur

[Brian Owens]

...It's also a little extra protection for the left hand in case one is foolish enough to jam your scabbard when pulling it back, while cutting, resulting in cutting through the saya. It's actually quite difficult for sharp steel to cut through silk...

I never would have thought of that; that's really quite brilliant. I've seen several saya over the years that had wrappings of various types between the koiguchi and the kurigata, which I always thought of as strictly decorative, but I wonder now if they had that other purpose as well.

...It's actually quite difficult for sharp steel to cut through silk. . .and therefore, I still have a thumb, the blade only cutting ½ through.

Half through the silk, or half through your thumb? I shudder to think what might have happened.

[Ellis Amdur]

Half through the silk, or half through your thumb? I shudder to think what might have happened.

Both, actually.

[giles]

1. You are right - a little failsafe for the kurigata not getting ripped out.

I'd got that wrong: I thought the larks foot was so that the sageo was still attached should the kurigata break. Too much rock climbing influencing my thinking.

[Yagyuhoo]

I've always wondered why the sageo in TSKSR is looped over the saya. Never gotten around to asking--even though that's not the way people wore swords, with the sageo drooping behind. So, in the spirit of inquiry, to TSKSR folks (and others who do the same in their tradition), why do this with the sageo? (If I don't get an answer here, I'm finally moved to inquire further, and will write to a few friends. I'll be surprised if I'm told that this is one of the deep secrets of the ryu).
Ellis Amdur

Any answers to this conundrum? Inquiring minds want to know...