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Thread: Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu

  1. #61
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    Originally posted by MarkF
    Hi, Peter,
    I don't know anything of significance of Japanese history except from about 1860 or so to today, and that is very limited in itself.

    But I believe TSKSR is considered the oldest *extant* ko ryu or at least it is said to be by those of certain organizations concerned with the study of ko ryu within the long history of Japan.

    Signed,
    Grasshopper
    Yes, Mark, I was showing some of my own ignorance. I didn't look for Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu on koryu.com until after I posted.

    However, the claim that the "[t]he art is an integral part of the history of Japan and the point of origin for all Japanese martial arts." is a little bit of hyperbole. That's what bothered me about the web site - too much of too much.

    Well, this has prompted me to learn a little more about historical koryu, so that can't be a bad thing. If more people were willing to investigate and ask questions of their instructors maybe this kind of school couldn't survive.


    Still, nobodies responded to what troubled me most about this site. That is:
    Would you study with someone claiming Pol Pot and Idi Amin as clients? Is that actually something to put down as a reference?

    Peter
    Peter Claussen

  2. #62
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    Talking

    Call it a certain cannibalistic, necro-cachet.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  3. #63
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    I wasn't at all implying anything. In fact, these are the kind of facts I claim knowledge when the fact is probably more to the nothing side of knowing.

    As to these websites, reasons for them are so vast as to raise questions on the validity of budo and proprietary issues themselves. IOW, Ipsa loquatar.

    But there is always hope. The site is so bad that perhaps those responsible will be nipping a chunk out of themselves pretty soon. People are beginning to get the message, even if it is only a lesson on building a good budo website. Just posting it here ups the visit numbers, and one infamous "Dr. Dai Soke junidan menkyo kaiden" freak even mentioned that on his now much improved (though just as bad in the content department) website a while back.

    While he told his peons to stay away from discussions such this one, he was oh so happy on the inside.
    ****

    The recommendation I have is to drop them like a bad habit, but at the same time, it needs to be aired.

    See how the pros and cons get interspersed? There are always the few at which such a website is aimed, and enough to be impressed that someone actually helped genocidal, maniacal people suchs as Pol Pot and/or Idi Amin in getting through a vacation alive.

    Besides, if true, why would one want to make this public? Seems to me to be a downright good manner of effecting one's longevity on this planet, especially if it were true.

    Mark

    PS: I didn't get that from Koryu.com, but they do have good sources which can be backed up and are not afraid to admit to the occasional error, either.

  4. #64
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    Default Yenshin SHODAN Katori Shinto Ryu

    Kolschey,

    From what I could tell from reading the article, it looked like Balmer has been mixing what he has learned from TSKSR with his own style of shoddy Karate and homespun philosophy.

    Seriously dodgy looking!

    I saw Balmer's message board a while back. I'll find it and post the URL.


    Slan.

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    http://www.katorishintoryu.freeserve.co.uk/PROFILES.htm

    "Master Sugino had the title Mejin conferred on him by the emperor and is the only recognised Mejin in Japan."

    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that "meijin" is an compliment, not a title. You could say "meijin desu" (that is a master) in reference to someone else, but this is the first time I've seen it used as an official title.

    Well, I guess if Idi Amin could award himself 20 lbs of medals, what's a "Meijin" among friends?


    -David Craik

    -who once had the title Gaijin conferred on him by the owner of a local soba shop in Iwakuni, and was the only recognised Gaijin in that soba shop.

  6. #66
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    Smile Katori Shinto Ryu reflections

    Days ago I put post in this forum., "Chating no Rensu" in order to try to clarify some commentaries on my person that appeared in post Katori Shinto Ryu.. In that occasion I made mention to the fact that surely it would be the first time and perhaps the last one in which Itook part in a Forum. After reading some commentaries on KSR, of I have to clarify some details again.

    First place I will say that in one week I will be with Otake sensei and Soke Iizasa and I will have the opportunity to comment with them all whatever in this forum has been published. The not very good idea that is even coming to my mind is to record it in video tapes (I don't how could I do later to show it to you) in order to desmonstrate and to settle without misunderstandings doubts all these commentaries, although I think it won't be satisfactory for all that seem to force. Soke and the School to admit in its rows to people, students or groups who arose outside the school (don' matter how many time ago) and that now try to have official acknoledgment. In adition, like, I've seen , ther's alway some one ready to foment dialectical "battles". They seem to become some benefits from them

    Many people do not know the actual situation of the school, but the always like to be involved in discussions about it forgetting a very important aspect.

    They comment for example about if the school is open or closed. The school is not open or closed, simply the school is in Japan. Yes, it seems to be something trivial but they forget what it meens: it is necessary to learn there and under the personal supervision of the Shihan. All this is an insurmountable step for most of which try to be members of the school, but it is logical that this obstacle can be solved of diverse forms (each case is personal). I think, that once surpassed this requirement, the most important one (that modifies all whatever is written in mentioned the forum) must be approached: which is the objective to practice Katori? Why to belong to a tradition so difficult to follow.

    Personally I do not recommend anybody to belong to the School if this person does not need to practice this Budô with the necessary intensity. That's the reason it is not possible to practice it by the simple fact to say "I like it" or to consider it like hobby or an exotic activity. As other Budo it is a way that for the foreigners it is more difficult, it is an ascent to a great mountain through the most difficult side and in more complete anonymity. Many people raise this mountain with the best equipment and once they begin the ascent they stop to comment their materials, the views from the ascent, how fast they climb or the technique that they use, forgetting the true reason for ascent. Who reaches the top knows that it will have to do down again and to begin the ascent with another feeling, deeper than the first time and so, over and over again.

    When someone reaches "the top" and verifies that everything what they see depends simply on its perception of the things, will feel disappointed or with the sensation of having "finished" . and they will come down boasting of the feat they have made.

    All this that I comment is common to all the Budo and very well known by those who practice, but I think it is necessary to remember why the school Katori is so hermetic with the transmission and its correct way to practice

    It is not only a political question , influences or prestige of one or othe master.

    I always observe the discussions about the situation of the school "outside" Japan or the situation of foreigners., for that reason I feel necessary to clarify that to belong (not only physically) to the school it is necessary to understand (and to accept) that we have a Dojo, a Master , a tradition to follow and a life ahead to carry out this ascent in a personal, singular form.

    Everything have to be based on ourselves I do not believe that it is positive pulling the piano towards us (the normal thing is to approach the seat and we ourself the piano).

    The Katori school is a meeting point of many people (worldwide) who share and look for similar aims. For that reason we should have to leave the axis remaining in its site and the radits converging to him, so that the wheel will be able to continue turning.

    I hope to be able to clarify some doubts that are considered in this forum when I return from Japan and also I don't want my words to be t misinterpreted or manipulated. I think that we should be speak about the school like what it really is: an Intangible Cultural Treasure and who want to enjoy it knows where to go.

  7. #67
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    Thumbs up Agreement....

    Hello mr. Comeron
    I do appreciate that I could not be further from the path that you are aiming the general comments to, however I feel that a total outsiders view on the state of things regarding the Katori Shinto Ryu may be a help...or encouragement at least.
    I have always regarded the T.S.K.S.R. as perhaps a pinnacle to achieve to...An aim that I would love to follow up on someday, I do hope to get to Japan but appreciate the difficulty in this...However it is a (possible) dream of mine.
    I hold the Katori Shinto Ryu and it's practitioners and masters in high esteem. Because they have not made the attempt to 'publicise' their art. It is there if you have the determination to find it. It is this that contributes perhaps to it's status. And it is this that I feel should not have to be changed to suit a minority or to satisfy people.
    The essence of the Ryu as far as a Gaijin like myself can see is that it is entered into not partially, but wholly. The student committing his heart and body to the training and the school, becoming fused with it and it's history. Not taking it and changing it to 'suit' him/her but being made to form themselves into the Ryu. Very different from the large majority of Ryu and Ha that exist presently.
    Why should Shihan Otake answer his critics? The school has continued since the 16th century by remaining essentially based on the same principles that it's founder decided to use. Why change to conform or to become more public? It has already been proven that there is no need for this...The Ryu's geneology proves this I feel.
    As I said I know little about the whole subject but feel that Shihan Otake and the Ryu generally have acted perfectly so far and hope that they can continue to keep the school as it is, as Shihan Otake, and Soke Lizasa want. What is the point of outsiders arguing about it?
    Thanks for the time here...I hope to one day gain studentship at this great Ryu and until then will hold the idea firmly in my heart.
    Domo Arigato. (All...)
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

  8. #68
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    Paco:

    Had a hard time figuring out what you were trying to say in English. Give my best to Otake Sensei and his son anyway.

    Carl McClafferty

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    Default Katori Shinto Ryu

    Is this ryu taught anywhere in the USA?

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    Default Re: Katori Shinto Ryu

    Originally posted by Oliver Ryan
    >> Is this ryu taught anywhere in the USA? <<


    not legitimately, i'd venture.
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  11. #71
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    Jeff is right, but there are a lot of illegit things going on in California.
    John Lindsey

    Oderint, dum metuant-Let them hate, so long as they fear.

  12. #72
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    Default Katori Shinto Ryu

    There hasn't been anywhere outside of Japan where you could do Katori Shinto Ryu with legitimate association to the Ryu under Otake Sensei. For some time there have been interviews with Otake Sensei in which he stated that he had no objection "in principle" to the art being atught outside Japan by qualified teachers in close association with headquarters dojo.

    This is starting to happen but it is my impression that it has not been generally announced. I am sure that more information will be available fairly soon.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
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  13. #73
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    I have seen KSR dojo in Holland, Ireland, Italy and Belgium on the web. Nothing in the States though..
    David F. Craik

  14. #74
    Yamantaka Guest

    Question KSR IN EUROPE

    Originally posted by Soulend
    I have seen KSR dojo in Holland, Ireland, Italy and Belgium on the web. Nothing in the States though..
    YAMANTAKA : I seem to remember that the groups in Europe were composed of students of a group headed by YOSHIO SUGINO SENSEI, who got his authorization from a former headmaster of KSR in Japan. They weren't a part of the main group, headed by RISUKE OHTAKE Sensei (the present headmaster of Katori Shinto Ryu).
    AFAIK

  15. #75
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    Default Re: KSR IN EUROPE

    Originally posted by Yamantaka


    YAMANTAKA : I seem to remember that the groups in Europe were composed of students of a group headed by YOSHIO SUGINO SENSEI, who got his authorization from a former headmaster of KSR in Japan. They weren't a part of the main group, headed by RISUKE OHTAKE Sensei (the present headmaster of Katori Shinto Ryu).
    AFAIK
    As I understand these things, the permission was extended only to the elder Sugino, and expired upon his death. I believe that the position of Otake is that if they wish to continue to train they must make keppan (blood seal) with the Katori hombu (actually with the soke, not Otake, if I understand correctly). There is also the (now somewhat heretic, if what I hear is accurate) line from Tetsutaka Sugawara, who also has many students abroad including, IIRC, someone in California. Anyway, even in Japan not everyone training in Katori is tied to Otake, although those people (some of whom are quite good) may or may not be "legitimate" depending upon how you look at it and who you talk to.

    Doesn't Dan Harden (who frequents these boards) teach Katori somewhere in the wilds of Massachusetts?

    Best,

    Chris

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