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Thread: Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto-ryu

  1. #76
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    Unhappy Spider to punk #2 "It just ain't dyin'!"

    Wow, this topic is like the zombies in "Return of the Living Dead."

    I am sure that a search of the e-budo archives will turn up oodles of stuff on "legitimacy" and TSKSR. One can also try searching the Iaido-L archives, as I know for sure that the topic has been discussed on multiple occasions.

    To my limited knowledge, there are no current students of Otake sensei who have been given permission to teach in the U.S. There are students of his out here (most of whom are, with the exception of me, quite good), but they haven't set up shop teaching TSKSR.

    There are others, however, who do teach TSKSR. Mark Jones is the guy in California (teaches out in Napa, I think). I recall a group in KC who train as well. I don't know of others, but there very well may be.

    The whole authenticity thing is actually played out, and is starting to get as boring as the ninjutsu X-kan sniping that goes on. If you want to be absolutely, positively sure, fly to Japan, talk to Otake sensei and take the keppan in Narita. If not, then there may be doubts in your own mind.

    However, if you like what you do, and it makes you happy, who gives a s**t otherwise. I don't.

    Cheers,

  2. #77

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    Hey,

    I am sure that if you guys search hard enough you will find someone in the US that is actually licensed to teach this ryu. Usually, the legit people don't advertise quite as much as the others. There have been some really great things happening in the US as far as Koryu is concerned. If you really want to study this Koryu, or any other, it may require you to give up a lot of things and to actually delve into the ryu. Good luck in your search!
    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart
    Louisville KY

  3. #78
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    Smile

    thank you, Adam, for stepping in. might as well close this thread now ... there are at least a few online articles that explain quite clearly how permission to teach a koryu art is granted and maintained, in addition to a stack of E-Budo threads where the "Magical Mystical TSKSR" topic has been beaten to death. it's almost as crazy as the perpetual Daito-ryu debate!

    in some cases, Todd, it's not a matter of searching harder, because there is no network of licensed teachers inside or outside japan; it's a "no-other-options" issue of getting permission of a school's current headmaster or head instructor to train under them directly.

    PS to answer your PM, Adam, yes. i train with Shinohara-sensei in Suwa, Nagano. perhaps we'll see you over here in october for grading?
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  4. #79
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    Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
    in some cases, Todd, it's not a matter of searching harder, because there is no network of licensed teachers inside or outside japan; it's a "no-other-options" issue of getting permission of a school's current headmaster or head instructor to train under them directly.
    All depends on what you're looking for. If you want to be a member of the ryu (secret decoder ring and all ) than you need to go to Otake. If you just want to train in the art then there are other avenues available.

    Otake's in a difficult postition because he's attempting to preserve an undiluted lineage with all practice tied to the hombu dojo. Katori is still small enough that there's a chance that he might actually succeed, but I wonder if even now it's a little too late.

    Best,

    Chris

  5. #80
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    Exclamation clarification

    Originally posted by Chris Li
    >> All depends on what you're looking for. If you want to be a member of the ryu ... than you need to go to Otake. If you just want to train in the art then there are other avenues available. <<


    actually, Chris, my comments were not in reference to TSKSR specifically, but rather what i've read about the way that some koryu are "managed" by their headmasters. unfortunately, i don't have concrete examples at my fingertips, and perhaps my impression of what i read is incorrect.

    on the other hand, the action you suggest above (training through channels not currently recognized/authorized by the headmaster or Otake-sensei) seems to fly in the face of what people such as Dr. Friday have to say on the subject of "gray area" koryu training. now, i realize that the situation in TSKSR is very gray, depending upon who you hear it from, and again i don't wish to make any pronouncements on that art in particular because i just don't have authoritative information. based on what i've read, though, i have a hard time agreeing completely with your position stated above.
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  6. #81
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    Default Re: clarification

    Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
    on the other hand, the action you suggest above (training through channels not currently recognized/authorized by the headmaster or Otake-sensei) seems to fly in the face of what people such as Dr. Friday have to say on the subject of "gray area" koryu training. now, i realize that the situation in TSKSR is very gray, depending upon who you hear it from, and again i don't wish to make any pronouncements on that art in particular because i just don't have authoritative information. based on what i've read, though, i have a hard time agreeing completely with your position stated above.
    Not all that gray, there's only one way into the ryu, and that's through Otake. However, there are at least three other lines practicing Katori and they each have spawned students and teachers of their own. Those teachers are not part of the official lineage, so if that's important then that may make a difference.

    It's not really a "position", I was just trying to summarize the situation.

    For example, there's only one "official" lineage in Christianity, the papal lineage in the Catholic Church. For many people that's important, for many other people it's not (please, no religious arguments, it's just a general example). Each to their own .

    Best,

    Chris

  7. #82
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    Post Re: clarification

    Originally posted by Chris Li
    >> Not all that gray, there's only one way into the ryu, and that's through Otake. However, there are at least three other lines practicing Katori and they each have spawned students and teachers of their own. Those teachers are not part of the official lineage, so if that's important then that may make a difference. <<


    if you take this article at face value, then it makes all the difference in the world. according this line of thinking, anyone who isn't training under Otake-sensei cannot claim, in good faith, to be training in or teaching TSKSR.

    >> For example, there's only one "official" lineage in Christianity, the papal lineage in the Catholic Church. For many people that's important, for many other people it's not ... <<

    but those who practise christianity outside of the authority of the pope do not claim to be Roman Catholics, do they? no, they refer to themselves as believers of whatever christian sect they claim membership in. i can see what you're driving at, but i don't agree that it makes for a particularly good analogy. (like Chris, i'm not trying to invite religious debate here; if either one of us has missed a fundamental truth germane to the current topic, though, i'd be happy to get correction)
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  8. #83
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    Default Re: Re: clarification

    Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
    Originally posted by Chris Li
    >> Not all that gray, there's only one way into the ryu, and that's through Otake. However, there are at least three other lines practicing Katori and they each have spawned students and teachers of their own. Those teachers are not part of the official lineage, so if that's important then that may make a difference. <<


    if you take this article at face value, then it makes all the difference in the world. according this line of thinking, anyone who isn't training under Otake-sensei cannot claim, in good faith, to be training in or teaching TSKSR.
    That's why I said (in the first post) that it depends on who you talk to .

    Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
    >> For example, there's only one "official" lineage in Christianity, the papal lineage in the Catholic Church. For many people that's important, for many other people it's not ... <<

    but those who practise christianity outside of the authority of the pope do not claim to be Roman Catholics, do they? no, they refer to themselves as believers of whatever christian sect they claim membership in. i can see what you're driving at, but i don't agree that it makes for a particularly good analogy. (like Chris, i'm not trying to invite religious debate here; if either one of us has missed a fundamental truth germane to the current topic, though, i'd be happy to get correction)
    Yes, although they everybody calls themselves "christians". I'm really not arguing about who's "legitimate" and who's not. As I said before, I'm just summarizing the situation. The fact is, there are several Katori groups (ie groups practicing the same techniques and calling themselves by the same name) not connected to Otake - whether that bothers anyone is up to the individual, IMO.

    Best,

    Chris

  9. #84
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    Originally posted by Chris Li
    >> Yes, although everybody [of that faith] calls themselves "christians". <<


    the overarching term "christian" is further distinguished by the name of the particular sect, in much the same way that such-and-such a -ryu might be more specifically defined by the term -ha. as i understand it, any exponent who does not maintain recognized ties with their school of "origin", so to speak, probably shouldn't be appropriating the exact name of that tradition to label their current activities of teaching or training. reminds me a bit of Sarah Ferguson continuing to use her royal title as part of her business's marketing campaign in spite of the fact that she's divorced her royal former husband.

    >> whether that bothers anyone is up to the individual, IMO. <<

    true enough. and just about exhausts the common ground we share on this issue. i'll look forward to your further responses or comments, although as Adam suggests, i don't know if anybody else at E-Budo really cares to read our dead horse flogging!
    Last edited by Jeff Hamacher; 9th July 2002 at 04:35.
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  10. #85
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    Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
    Originally posted by Chris Li
    >> Yes, although everybody [of that faith] calls themselves "christians". <<


    the overarching term "christian" is further distinguished by the name of the particular sect, in much the same way that such-and-such a -ryu might be more specifically defined by the term -ha. as i understand it, any exponent who does not maintain recognized ties with their school of "origin", so to speak, probably shouldn't be appropriating the exact name of that tradition to label their current activities of teaching or training. reminds me a bit of Sarah Ferguson continuing to use her royal title as part of her business's marketing campaign in spite of the fact that she's divorced her royal former husband.
    But it wasn't always that way - at one time "christian" meant one thing and one thing only and then things split apart. The question is whether Katori will similarly become a generic term for schools with some root in that tradition or not. It doesn't matter much to me one way or the other. From what I can tell Otake seems to want to stem that trend, I'm just not sure that he's in time to do so.

    Best,

    Chris

  11. #86
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    Originally posted by Chris Li
    >> But it wasn't always that way - at one time "christian" meant one thing and one thing only and then things split apart. <<


    true enough, but when new sects decided to establish themselves and split from the Roman papacy, they didn't try to present themselves as Roman Catholics. they chose to reject some of what the Roman Catholic church establishment taught, maintain other tenets of belief found in christianity, and pursue their faith under a new banner. there's a slightly different example of a split in the RC church: the rival papacy which was established in Avignon, France. for a time, you had two "popes", each insisting that theirs was the true seat of the Catholic church and declaring their rival "excommunicated"! sounds remotely similar to the Daito-ryu wrangling. regardless, i still don't think that either analogy is a fair representation of the goings-on in TSKSR.

    >> The question is whether Katori will similarly become a generic term for schools with some root in that tradition or not. (...) From what I can tell Otake seems to want to stem that trend, I'm just not sure that he's in time to do so.

    if you accept the point of view that control over the name and technical content of a koryu art rests solely with the current headmaster, your analysis above of current trends is moot: people who don't have the current headmaster's imprimatur should, from a moral standpoint, respect the headmaster's absolute authority, in spite of the fact that they have no legal backing for their claims to such "intellectual property". if you reject that point of view and think that there's more latitude in the way that koryu arts can or should be disseminated, then your proposition seems reasonable, even if i don't happen to agree.
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  12. #87
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    Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
    if you accept the point of view that control over the name and technical content of a koryu art rests solely with the current headmaster, your analysis above of current trends is moot: people who don't have the current headmaster's imprimatur should, from a moral standpoint, respect the headmaster's absolute authority, in spite of the fact that they have no legal backing for their claims to such "intellectual property". if you reject that point of view and think that there's more latitude in the way that koryu arts can or should be disseminated, then your proposition seems reasonable, even if i don't happen to agree.
    All true, except for the point that I'm not making any kind of proposition. The fact is there are several different groups practicing what they call Katori. Whether that's right or wrong, or whether one group is or ought to be more legitimate than the others I have no idea - it's really not my problem.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Originally posted by Chris Li
    >> All true, except for the point that I'm not making any kind of proposition. <<


    sorry if i've been giving you the impression that i believe you have a personal stake in this exchange, specifically in reference to TSKSR. i realize you don't and neither do i. i suppose i don't even have a stake in the point of view that i'm essentially reporting on, i.e. "the headmaster is always right".

    when i say you make a proposition, i mean that you present something other than a perfectly neutral perspective: a very broad view of how headmasters of koryu arts and their respective students might act, and in one case how they are actually training in and teaching their tradition. the perspective that my arguments represent is also not neutral; it is in fact a very narrow view of how a headmaster should have absolute control over the art which has been entrusted to them, and it admits no other possibilities.

    i grant you that the modern world of martial arts training may bring further changes to the dissemination of these traditions, and perhaps the autocratic control which headmasters exert over certain arts will dissolve. that reality, however, would probably fail to preserve aspects of the teaching of koryu arts, aspects which i can't help but feel should be maintained.
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  14. #89
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    Originally posted by Jeff Hamacher
    sorry if i've been giving you the impression that i believe you have a personal stake in this exchange, specifically in reference to TSKSR. i realize you don't and neither do i. i suppose i don't even have a stake in the point of view that i'm essentially reporting on, i.e. "the headmaster is always right".
    I don't disagree. People ought to have a right to create any art they like and then control the distribution of that art (mainly the name these days, unless you keep things super-secret).

    Right or wrong, though, it's pretty hard to put the genie back in the bottle, and the Katori genie has been loose for more than a few years. If it were me, I'd change the name. Will the non-Otake branches change the name in order to appease the mainline? Remains to be seen, but my hunch is not.

    Best,

    Chris

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    Of course we can always bring in the Orthodox Christians where the pope in Rome was seen as first amoung equals until the influence of secular medieval fiefs and kings came into play.

    The roman pope says I rule, the others said not.

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