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  1. #1
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    Exclamation KarateForum Etiquette

    Greetings:

    After some discussion and even a little debate, I have decided to encourage the use of English in all posts.

    The study of karate encompasses Chinese, Okinawan and Japanese ideas, skills and words...and seldom is there just no way at all to translate a concept into English.

    IF or purpose is communication, then it behooves us to actually communicate in a language each understands.

    Therefore, all participants are asked to write in English with the foreign term for the art in parenthesis, if desired. Less acceptable will be the use of foreign language terms with the English in parenthesis and NOT acceptable is the liberal use of other languages without any translation.

    We have a wide and diverse audience here folks, not all our readers practice our arts or have the benefits of travel overseas...let's truly communicate, ok?
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  2. #2
    Rolls Guest

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    I have a question. Do you get paid to do this? How much? Do you enjoy your job?

    Josh Harne

  3. #3
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    Default

    Rolls, I believe that your question was a bit out of the line and at least did feel a bit spiky.

    Moderators usually don't get paid in these groups. They're just here to set some guidelines that keep discussion enjoyable and comfortable for everyone (like setting some basic lines how the terms and their translations should be used).

    I understand finely the issue here. I'm a practicioner of okinawan art by myself. I also train 2 japanese arts. Partially their areas cross each other but terminology in all of those differs greatly.

    Also, inside one art the differences may be vast. Example: Middle block can at least be chudanuke, sotouke, uchiuke, gaiwanuke, naiwanuke, shotouke or have some other names. I understand the need of regulation.

    However, I feel a bit weak here too. I don't necessarily english names for techniques. So, I ask moderator a bit patience. Stances especially are a problem here for me. (I ask straight away: What is the english name for Shiko-dachi? Some use Straddle stance, but I feel that Kiba-dachi is a straddle stance. Would Shiko-dachi be Sumo-stance?).

    Reason for my incapability to express those lies in my backround: I'm finnish, living in Finland and have studied the arts using japanese or okinawan terms. English translations may then be a little awkward.


    Jussi

  4. #4
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    This is in response to an elaborate discussion regarding this subject that took place in a previous thread (and perhaps in other threads). Thanks to the moderator for taking the time to consider it. I doubt very much he is paid to do it...

  5. #5
    kusanku Guest

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    English terms sound good. We can all learn to explain the empty hand way using English. A good excercise in intellectual development, something no doubt, none ever outgrow.

    After some of the terminolgy lists we have been hit with,I'm all for it.Might make some of the style differences seem less different, too.

    I mean, anyone who does karate, does horse stance, natural stance, front stance, stepping stance,cat or back stance, front punch, reverse punch, backfist, hammerfist, front, side, roundhouse anad back kicks, jumping or fluiing or spinning techniques and kicks.

    Sidestepping,.angulation, footwork, timing, speed and power and form.Combination techniques, formal excercises or routines, and self defense techniques, partner drills, and sparring.

    There it is in English, and it doesn't look all that muysterious that way, does it?:-)

    Take off the pajamas and lose the belts and bowing,change the titles to coach, assistant coach and students, and would it be that different?

    Every other culture which has taken martial arts has assimilated it into their own but Western culture.Maybe its time to do that.

    I mean, the Chinese don't wealk around barefoot except in the South some did, and we don't either.And we don't wear gi as daily attire.I mean uniforms.So, why not work out in blue jeans and t shirts, or even suits or sport clothes?

    Not being facetious here, just trying to spark some thinking. We might actually, if wee implemented some or all of these changes, get more students. Thanks for the idea, Ted.I think I might try using all English terms and the other stuff, some of which I have been doing, as well.
    Sincerely,

  6. #6
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    Default

    Thank you Mr. Truscott, not that I don't envy you guys who rattle off the Japanese names for technique. I studied Judo with a gym teacher, a college wrestler, who knew some good basics, no Japanese, my instructors in Kung Fu and TKD, were trying so hard to learn English, I'm lucky I can say Sifu and Kwon Chang Nihm. I'm all for English. However, I am also willing and eager to learn. May I suggest, use Japanese terms, but follow with an initial English translation for those of use who are challanged?

    Note: Computers do a lot more than spell check these days. Some of us really need to invest in the Chigago Manual of Style, or something.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  7. #7
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    John - I don't know you, but I saved a passage you wrote in the "red and white belt" debate about how you train in jeans, sneakers and t-shirts, no belts, no bowing, use of first names, free classes, etc. I like your perspective.

    I wonder if I would have stayed in the martial arts for so long (22 years so far) if there was no belt system, uniform, school traditions, etc. back when I started karate at age 14. I remember I had a great time working my way through the belt colors, etc. Now that I am an adult and have worked my way to a 3rd dan and have been teaching my own classes for 17 years I have no personal need for ranking, and would like nothing better than to just work out in sweats and shoes with no ranking system, etc. (which is what I do when I train outside of my class).

    However, my students, particularly the students in my children's class, see things a little differently. Over the past few years I have been revising my program in a number of ways, including reducing the number of adult belt ranks to 5 colors (white, green, purple, brown, black) plus an assistant teacher and teacher grade (although I increased the children's belt colors to 9). No dan levels to earn. We train in cotton/canvas gi pants and school t-shirts with cross training sneakers and karate belts. My students voted on the uniform, they did not want to go to warm up suits or sweat pants, but were happy to lose the gi tops. They also advised me that they enjoyed working through the color belts. I decided for them that there would be no further ranks in my school after black belt.

    We use minimal bowing. Almost all terminology in English except kata names. And our fees are very low, but necessary to pay rent and buy kicking shields and focus mitts (which we use a lot).

    I feel we have reached a middle ground between "traditional" 20th century karate and the type of training you do. But I wanted to tell you that I appreciate your perspective and am glad that you are posting your ideas. There is a great book, "Martial Arts America," written by a guy named Bob Orlando, that you would like - it talks about many of the ideas in your post above. It is available on amazon.com.

    Thanks again.

  8. #8
    kusanku Guest

    Default

    Kevin-
    Thanks for the good thoughts, friend.It sounds like you are doing quite well, and I understand the necessities of providing some at least of what is demanded in a paying class. I may be starting a paying class sometime soon, it is a possibillity, but as I already established the precedents I use, it should be no problem.

    Its good to give people a service that they can benefit from, and its good to have some bechmarks for them, some use belts, others use , say, certificates of completion after they lesarn a new kata or whatever it may be.

    Nevertheless, for hard core non traditional instructioon of traditional arts if that makes any sense, the way I have been doing it, is pretty workabnle, and the way you are doing it sounds, also very workable.We do bow before the kata starts and use the Okinawan names too, one reason, a bow can be a head butt:-) and I don't know the meaning of some of those kata names any more than anyone else does.

    Take care,
    John Genjumin Vengel

  9. #9
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    Exclamation Using English

    Hallo,

    you talked about using english in the martial arts.
    In my opinion everybody should decide for himself. But when we talk about it (e.g. in this international way) we should not just use english terms.
    I come from Germany. We never used german term for techniques. In Germany we use just the japanese (chinese etc.) terms. I've also never heard the english terms for the techniques.
    I don't know how about this in other countries around the world.
    But to make it easy to understand for everybody, please do not just use english terms. I know Zenkutsu-Dachi, but i do not know the english word. Sorry.

    Osu
    Thomas Heinze

  10. #10
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    Default

    Ted,

    Thank you for all you do!

    I have had Japanese foreign-exchange students in my dojo, who study karate in Japan, and I have had Japanese sensei in my dojo as guest instructors.

    They all took great pride in using English terminology as much as possible, in spite of severe shortcomings in their usage and understanding of English.

    Case in point: a Japanese jodo instructor asked me during his instruction, while explaining a certain stance, "what you call this stance?" as he was struggling for the English words.

    In my best redneck twang I said "We call that shizentai or hanmi, sir" and we all had a great laugh!

    My impression is that the use of Japanese terms, as used by native Japanese instructors, is normal every-day usage for them, and when they are teaching English-speaking folks, they do the natural thing: try to relate the terms in everyday language normal to us.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by Jeff Cook
    My impression is that the use of Japanese terms, as used by native Japanese instructors, is normal every-day usage for them, and when they are teaching English-speaking folks, they do the natural thing: try to relate the terms in everyday language normal to us.
    Then you have no trouble with me using swedish terms to describe a technique? (and only wait until Jussi start to describe something in Finn :-)

    The reason we use japanese terms is that this is the terms we have been taught and are used across the globe, to start to guess what a term is in english can only be confusing.
    Yes I guess a few of the standard techniques can easily be translated into english, but usualy it is not them that we have trouble with anyway.

    The differing terminology is a big problem in martial arts and karate, but lets not add to the problem by guessing what a term translates to in a new (and for most of us foreign) language.

    Martin Hultgren

  12. #12
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    The easy solution is contained in my first post - Not "English only" but English first or at least second, along with the Japanese, Swedish, Finnish or Urdu.

    I know we have strong members here from other language groups that I would never dismiss but we still need to address the fact that if we are trying to communicate rather than something else, the language of most of the readers should be used. Hmmm?
    "Fear, not compassion, restrains the wicked."

  13. #13
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    I think that it is great that people from countries other than the United States participate in this forum. I think the original discussion was about using Japanese terms to describe concepts that some of us are not familiar with versus explaining them using plain english translations. We were not discussing whether we would be speaking German or French. If that were the case then almost no one from the U.S. could participate in this forum since almost none of us speak anything other than English.

  14. #14
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    Martin,

    Good point! That is exactly the reason I answered in Japanese when the Japanese sensei asked me what we called "shizentai."

    "Then you have no trouble with me using swedish terms to describe a technique?"

    If we both spoke Swedish, I would certainly have no problem with that. As we don't both speak swedish, yet we both speak english, I would hope you would use the language we have in common (english AND japanese terminology).

    Japanese terminology can be tricky too. Your kokutsu dachi and your oi-tsuki may be significantly different than ones practiced in other styles of karate. However, use of a common language to describe the similarities and differences is the only way we will be able to communicate meaningfully.

    As this board is written in english, I think it only makes sense to include the english with the japanese terminology, not replace one with the other.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  15. #15
    MarkF Guest

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    Most of the Japanese we use, particularly for certain movements or techniques are short descriptions anyway, and not really names, as in the use of kanji.

    I don't know the name for o-soto-gari, but I can describe it: 'major outer reaping throw,' or 'large outside leg sweep.' The are almost endless possibilities and I'm sure most would be correct.

    I have very little experience in any form of karate, and I do become frustrated at not understanding the terminology.

    If anyone would like English words for terms in the judo forum, one need only ask. For example, I have no real idea about the terms, specifically, those mentioned by Jeff, but I may know the general part of the term, such as tsuki.

    It can be frustrating sometimes.

    I know a front kick is 'mae geri' because that is what it is in judo parlance, but to add 'front snap kick,' I'd be lost. Of course, I'm assuming there are added or changed terms when discussing a front snap kick instead of mae geri.

    Mark

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