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Thread: Be Careful who you teach

  1. #1
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    Post Be Careful who you teach

    As an instructor of the Bujinkan, Soke Masaaki Hatsumi has always stated that we should only teach good people. We have a responsibility to not put the power of our traditions into the wrong hands. He said in olden times if you created a monster, you had to go out and kill him. As reported on 20/20 (Hijackers Trained Here ) Wed. Sept 19, one of the terrorists on flight 93 (the one that fought back) trained at a martial art school in Florida. I would hate to have been the one that trained him. We all need to be careful whom we teach.
    I know that this is difficult, but we need to know our students. My heart goes out to the instructor he must feel like crap.

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    However, the judo guy (Mr. Glick) apparently won that exchange. But I agree, it is wise to carefully evaluate who you are teaching.
    Kevin Schaller

  3. #3
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    Hmm. There are ways to predict behavior, but I am not sure that most martial arts instructors gather that much information about their students to make an assessment before allowing the students to train in their schools. I wonder if there is a resource out there that could provide some sort of questionnaire that could be utilized by martial arts instructors to predict whether there is a risk that a prospective student will abuse the knowlege received. Similarly, perhaps flight schools and other types of schools should screen prospective students. What criteria would we use to exclude/disqualify people from training in our schools? Conviction of a felony? Child abuse? Spousal abuse? Cruelty to animals? Bullying? Maybe if we pool our ideas we can come up with a set of questions, the answers to which could be used to help us determine whether we accept a person as a student or not. What do the rest of you think?

  4. #4
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    Unhappy Be carefull

    Hello,

    Well, unfortunatly we now must be more carefull, but there are a lot of variables on that.

    When I was going to Parris Island USMC Bootcamp in 79. we had a guy from Nicaragua with us. He told me, that he was there to learn, and take what he learned home.

    He later turned out to be a Sandanista, and some of us later went to Central America to face most likely what we gave them to begin with. Go figure.

    I also had a guy with me in Okinawa who was taken away one day by Naval Intell., for being a known Orangeman from Irish militant roots. Wow, we where in 3d Recon Bn.! I guess he got some good stuff to take home.

    Allan Lee Sifu, used to do FBI checks on prospective students in the 60s and early 70s. But is that possible anymore? Perhaps NOW it will be.

    I forsee problems.

    My main dojo is on my property, is private, and I teach who I want. = period.

    But my satellite dojo is at a rec center. I expect problems when I turn down people for reasons debatable.

    Freedom at the price of eternal viligance!
    Steven L. Malanoski

  5. #5

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    I find it hard to believe that if you are an experienced/mature instructor you don't get some idea/vibe from people who are going to rip you off, abuse the skills or arts. Naivety around this usually disappears pretty quickly after you open your doors and get done over a few times I would think!

    However, the issue is complicated by a number of factors - not least of whcih is that martial arts training is often characterised by an understanding that you are respected for who you are in the dojo. Sometimes little is known about practitioners private lives.

    I know this is no guarantee - and other instructors might have different standards - but our view is life is too short for this kind of hassle, so in our dojo our registration form lists terms that prospective students must agree to.

    We now state they must tell us if they have a criminal record before they start, and that they will be asked for a police clearance at brown belt stage, and possibly again at black at our discretion.

    I used to think this was a bit unfair if someone had something relatively minor going on in their youth - and the part of me that wants to give people a fair go still thinks this. However, as I go on the more cynical part of me is learning that students with a 'past' have been the ones more likely to do the wrong thing by us as teachers...so I am getting harder on that one. Bujinkan membership excludes those with a record anyway.

    We also ask that they disclose any physical or mental health issues that might affect their training. We state that disclosure will not necessarily mean they are excluded from training, but that non-disclosure of something which later becomes a problem may. We also include other things like training under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs, training with illegal weapons, using the skills outside the dojo and bringing the dojo into disrepute.

    Students must agree to each point seperately so we know they have actually read the fine print - by stating all this upfront - potential students get the idea of what we accept or don't pretty quickly.

    We are also taking more time to actually interview potential students rather than just letting them assume they can automatically join up. We are moving from just getting people to fill out their registration forms to using them as interview guides.

    The question has also prompted me to think there is probably a role for senior students here. I know over the years as a student I was aware of some things other students were getting up to that the teacher was not aware of.
    Frances Haynes

    CourageousHeart Bujinkan
    www.courageousheart.com.au

  6. #6
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    My biggest fear is that they might learn Juko-Kai's Combat Ki. Then it wouldn't matter how often or how hard we kick them in the groin.

    Sorry, I couldn't resist this line.

  7. #7
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    Talking Groin kick no good

    Hey Don,

    It wouldnt do them any good.

    You see, supposed warriors who kill defensless noncombatants, dont have any BALLS!
    Steven L. Malanoski

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    The second best fighter I ever saw started training when he was sixteen. Who knew then he would grow up to be a sociopath? When GM Kim started to suspect, he shared his deep concern with those of us close to him. What to do? Turn this student loose? The guy was bullying students, losing business. Try to keep him, shape him, mold him, be responsible? Cut the schools lose? That's when I got to see the best fighter I ever knew. GM Kim, in a blinding flurry of back straight kicks got to be a weakly sight. Our "rouge" fighter never got the message. He went pro in the 80's. The last I heard he was a CO, in jail, for assualting an inmate. At the time, who knew? By all means, be carefull. On that note, anyone ever read the Trullson Report?
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

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    The hijacker in question was Ziad Jarrah, and was on Flight 93. He trained for more than 20 hours at U.S. 1 Fitness in Dania Beach, FL. According to his instructor, Bert Rodriguez:

    "He wanted to learn about fighting and control -- about being in control and how to control somebody...I liked the guy. He was very humble, very quiet...He was very to himself and didn't want to be in a situation where he would get picked on." (from the Sun-Sentinel, 9/19/2001)

    I seem to recall from another article that I can't find that Ziad was actually trained privately in close quarter combatives such as strikes and takedowns, and was the same or similar kind to training offered to law enforcement officials. However, he only trained for about 20 hours, so how skilled could he have become? I'm only vaguely familiar with such training, so I really don't know. I suppose maybe enough to intimidate civilians untrained in martial arts. I doubt it was enough to help much against a judo champion though. There are perhaps some lucky people in Washington who are alive today because of Jeremy Glick. Makes one wonder...

    -Robert Cronin

  10. #10
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    If a person has a solid foundation, or a lot of determination, and the teacher is really good, you might be surprised what a person can learn in 20 hours. Try an Impact/Model Mugging weekend course, or a weekend with Peyton Quinn at RAMCAT, for instance...
    Last edited by Kevin Meisner; 27th September 2001 at 03:19.

  11. #11
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    Question ENOUGH TIME?

    Speaking from experience in training USMC personnel in close combat “ hand to hand, bayonette etc.” let me share this with you.

    20 hrs will not make you a yudansha equivelent.

    20 hrs will not make you a tournament champ

    20 hrs will not enable you to totally digest an advanced kata, bunkai and all.

    20 hrs is enough time to train a zealous troop, who already has the mind set, and understands that he will most likely be using what he learns in the near future.

    In ww2 the Japanese military, passed on my KaraTe style “GoJu” because they saw the foundation “SanChin” as taking too long to learn and develop, so they went with Funakoshi Sensei’s school of thought, figuring that it would be quicker to digest for the troops.

    Anastacio Samoza had Mike Echanis train his folks in martial arts in Nicaragua prior to the coup wich followed both of their assassinations. I cant quote exact time frames, but I CAN tell you, that the job did not take all that much time, and a lot was accomplished.

    US Marines graduate bootcamp as basic rifle infantry men in about 11 weeks.

    That’s not very much time to turn out a fighting machine, albeit not yet trained in a specialty yet, but none the less, a fighting machine.

    If the material is direct and basic as to getting the job done quickly and properly, 20 hrs is more than enough.

    I want everyone to take a close look at the average time a student spends in the dojo, learning and practicing stretches, basics, sparring ,meditation or whatever it is they do.

    Add all the ACTUAL hrs of training and do the math as far as how that would be divided into how many classes.

    Now, eliminate the ART and leave only basic quick kill or restraining/ disarming and incapasitating moves, such as real effective strikes, locks and perhaps strangulations.

    I am not speaking of the student who needs to develop self confidence or physical strength. Nor am I speaking of the average civilian mentality.

    It takes a special kind of person to be able to kill without thought.


    That type of person, although with long term training would be superior, does not need long term martial arts training to get the job done against the untrained or semi trained.

    I am not interested in debate on this subj.

    Just wanted to share that bit of insight with you.
    Steven L. Malanoski

  12. #12
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    Steven, I think you put this one to bed. Thanks for your insight.

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    Thank you gentlemen.
    Steven L. Malanoski

  14. #14
    jotaro Guest

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    I think it is just as important to get to know people after they join a dojo. Some of these guys with fake drivers licenses etc would be hard to spot. I doubt you could tell just by looking at someone and reading what they write on an application or even doing a criminal check would tell you everything. My instructor says the first thing he judges in new students is there "spirit" I think that should be the ultimate test. It would be horrible for anyone to start turning away students just because of the way they look or because they are a little strange. Many of the people I've trained with seemed pretty wacked but it doesn't make them a terrorist. . .


  15. #15
    Thomas Wahl Guest

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    Hi!

    Ok, I think the occassion's that one of us will have terrorists as students, will be very very rare. The problem is how to find out, if it's godd or not to train that new person.
    In my school I use "testsubscriptions". Here a person can train with us 4 weeks like a normal student for a quite little fee. After that 4 weeks that person can decide if he/she want's to continue with a longterm contract. But I as a instructor can also decide, if I want to keep that person. And in 4 weeks You get a feeling for that person. You can see how he reacts when being hurt in training accidently or when he is corrected, when You put him under pressure. For me I'm not so much afraid of training terrorist's, but more of training bullies and criminals. And that people are quite easy to recognize! If I have the feeling or impression that this is such a person, I tell him immeadiatly to go or I make the training in a way, that he may not like it and doesn't come back.

    It is also very important for an instructor to check the person good (here in Germany we can also get info by police), because one bad person can ruin the reputation of a school completly!

    The problem with terrorists will be, that they are, as we saw, very humble, quiet, and gentle persons. So normally we wouldn't suspect anything. Some of those WTC-Bombers of September were studying and living over here in Germany and were described by neighbors as nice quiet people. So should I start to exclude all people who ar Muslims (Turks, Arabs,...) from my training? Then I would be called a Nazi over here!

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