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Thread: Be Careful who you teach

  1. #16
    TheWind Guest

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    It is difficult to evaluate everyone that comes to your dojo. If I had stayed in my small home dojo, I have much control over whom I teach. when I open my doors to the world......I have limitations. Can I act in a manner that is boderline discrimination?
    I hadan offer several years ago to train a group, for $ 5000, they wanted to know the 'hard core stuff' it was easy to see they had illegal intentions, especially ones that I was able to verify.
    For most instructors, the amount of students you need to pay the bills makes it hard. In one instance a respected instructor, for his good works, has always taught a large percentage of gang types. LEOs that I know that deal in the town have told me many times his students pay he is high rates with crime.
    I get a different sort of student, I have little to worry about, I get women, nerds and LEOs.
    My art, which is combat oriented and street effective, does work with less than 20 hours of training. But my wife, my co-instructor, and I are putting more traditional techniques in our program. That is why I will get the type of student that wants to fight, I am more selective in regards to short term training. But since I am Jewish and a LEO, the ones I would not want to teach...don't come to me. My simple aximon is that 'birds of a featherr stick together', I teach decent people that are concerned for themeselves and those on the outside of the law, want no art of my school.
    Robert Murie, THe Way of One

  2. #17
    kenshorin Guest

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    Originally posted by Thomas Wahl

    In my school I use "testsubscriptions". Here a person can train with us 4 weeks like a normal student for a quite little fee. After that 4 weeks that person can decide if he/she want's to continue with a longterm contract. But I as a instructor can also decide, if I want to keep that person. And in 4 weeks You get a feeling for that person. You can see how he reacts when being hurt in training accidently or when he is corrected, when You put him under pressure. For me I'm not so much afraid of training terrorist's, but more of training bullies and criminals. And that people are quite easy to recognize! If I have the feeling or impression that this is such a person, I tell him immeadiatly to go or I make the training in a way, that he may not like it and doesn't come back.
    We do the same "trial month" in our dojo. Like you said not only does it give the student a chance to see what we are about, it gives us a chance to figure out whether the person is someone who we want in our dojo or not. It works quite well.

    Ken DeCouto

  3. #18
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    Hi All,

    I've had a few 'unattractive' types in my dojo over the years, but I've never once had to invite any of them to leave. Why? Because after one or two sessions they realise that whatever it is they're looking for, they won't find it in my class. If they don't come to this realisation for themselves, then I make a point of spelling it out to them.

    In Shorinji Kempo we have a very comprehensive, contemporary philosophy which is largely designed to ensure the responsible application of what we learn. It also encompasses the wider ideals of communal responsibility and emphasises the true nature of budo as a means for cultivating character over simply learning how to overwhelm and defeat another individual. These teachings are an integral part of every lesson and as such it is extremely difficult for anyone not interested in being responsible, co-operative, productive members of society to ignore. As a consequence, any such individuals tend to leave of their own volition.

    Speaking then from personal experience, I would find it hard to perceive of anyone spending time acquiring martial skills with illegal/immoral intent to be able to do so unless they found some support or acceptance of those motives within the training environment. If not explicit, they would at least need to sense some degree of tolerance for those motives (humble, well-intentioned religious/political extremists aside - however 'evil' others may judge their intent).

    I question the validity of 'entrance questionnaires' in an effort to identify 'bad' students, since few people are likely to be open about their illegal/immoral intent. Signing up to a set of minimum requirements is a good idea, but once again, any such individuals will be unlikely to give much consideration to signing a contract with the intent of ignoring its requirements. Thereafter it falls to the instructor to observe and judge their attitude/behaviour to be acceptable or otherwise, which is how it should be.

    In addition to the content of the teachings, I can thank the manner in which Shorinji Kempo is presented to the potential student for the lack of problem students. Any styles that make a point of advertising such things as "lethal secrets, death touches, and bone-breaking techniques" have only themselves to thank for students with difficult attitudes and/or malicious intent.

    Later,
    George Hyde

    UCL, ULU, SOAS Dojo
    British Shorinji Kempo Federation

  4. #19
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    Hi! I couldn't help but add my humble 2 cents on this subject.

    It's really refreshing to see responsible martial artists out there who understand the real spirit of budo. It's one thing to keep society safe by teaching people how to protect themselves. It's quite another to keep society safe by protecting the teaching from those who would use it unjustly. To make the distinction between who is "just" or "unjust" is quite a complicated task. The wisdom of the teacher is put to the test. Unfortunately, many teachers are motivated by profit FIRST and that tends to influence their common sense in evaluating potential students. I'm sure these terrorists flashed a lot of cash (as they did during their night out before the suicide bombings) and that may have clouded any "signals" that these people were "just not right".

    In my experiences, I've learned that teachers that only focus on the raw, physical techniques, emphasising brutality and destruction, tend to fall prey to training the "criminally inclined". In our school, we teach in a very light hearted way with laughter and an attitude of "having fun". Those with bad intentions tend to just disappear. We teach principles of combat and the raw, real-life combat skills are just glimpses (examples) of those principles. I have found that people I thought were kinda shady tended to fade out quickly because they are not getting the "step 1, step 2 and kill your victim" type of training. They also can't truly laugh like the rest of the class and usually are not comfortable. Of course, these are the easy ones to spot...

    I agree with those of you that use a trial period as a kind of "exploration" period. It allows the potential student to see if the training is what they want and it also allows the teacher to see if the student is the type of student the teacher wants. My hat goes off to those of you that use this time responsibly. For any of you that have discontinued teaching people that didn't seem "just", I thank you for protecting the safety of my family, friends and self.

    Peace and happiness,
    Darren Dumas

    P.S. Sorry! My 2 cents turned into 2 dollars. That's why I let my wife handle the money...
    Darren Dumas
    Bujinkan Dojos of Sacramento
    www.budosac.com

  5. #20
    Tabitha Miller Guest

    Default A question...

    One underlying theme throughout these responses is the idea that the Florida instructor may have been cultivating the worst in an already evil person.
    If this terrorist was raised in a hostile environment, possibly an orphan raised by the Taliban after the Soviet conflict, his intentions were not entirely evil. When someone acts in a way he/she believe is righteous and will improve the world around them (paradigm specific, of course) and ease the suffering of others, that is not an intrinsically bad notion.
    This is also something that the instructor may detect, but mistake for a humble and admirable personality since he or she cannot read minds.
    I also feel overwhelming sympathy for the instructor.
    Every human being is a product of their past and present experiences. I also feel remorse for the young Afghani, regardless of his horrific act. His other teachers misled him.
    Now for the question...sorry, I'm new and easily ramble.
    Do you believe the new student is capable of "screening" a new teacher? There have undoubtedly been people in the past who have trained in order to gain dominance over others and take it upon themselves to teach others how to go about this task.
    What are all of your thoughts?
    Thank you,
    Tabitha

  6. #21
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    This is sort of related and I would appreciate any information anyone has on this.

    I've heard a couple of 10 o'clock news teaser ads about how there was some evidence that many of the terrorists might not have known they were going to be kamikaze. However, I've never actually been able to catch the full story or seen anything in print about this.

    I guess it is conceivable. It also makes some sense, in a weird sort of way. Trying to get a group to decide where we're all going for lunch can often be difficult. Getting everyone in agreement to hijack a plane and then fly into a big building to die a horrible flaming death would seem a bigger problem.

    Has anyone seen any evidence that some of the terrorists thought they were only hijacking a passenger plane? Do you think this might have played any part in their prior martial arts training? For example, do you think they were also looking for something to steel their nerves?

  7. #22
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    Dear all,

    This is a very interesting read and an important subject for teachers.

    1st I believe the martial arts have been adapted to try and improve students (look at the whole "morale" rule thing that most schools promote). Most schools here in Michigan try and push some sort of honor system.

    2nd Most schools in America SELL information. There are quite a few instructors here in Michigan who would have no problem selling specific techniques or tricks for $$$.

    3rd how do you weed out bad students? Isn't that profiling?


    Another question I would like to ask the group is should other types of teachers who taught these terrorists skills feel ashamed?

    I am an English teacher and I teach a wide range of skills and functions to my ESL/EFL students. The Middle East is a great place for English teachers to make MONEY but it also trains "bad people".....

  8. #23
    Dojorat Guest

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    Greetins,

    Before I forget, in an attempt to keep E-Budo somewhat self-moderating, I'd like to remind Mr/Ms, TheWind of the E-Budo policy that requires we sign our full names to posts. That being said... I said I wasn't going to jump in but here I go.

    This is anecdotal. I was "minding the store" sitting at the front desk answering phones etc. for the dojocho when in comes this "gentleman" He sits down and explains that he's about to be arraigned on marijuana charges and he's fairly certain he's going to end up in prison. He'd like to learn something in the short meantime that could help keep his bodily orifaces the same size as when he came in. Figuring this was one for someone with more experience (and responsibility)I immediately asked him to wait one moment, excused myself and went to get Sensei.

    I'm tempted to digress and ask what you think we did. However, to make a long story longer... We told the guy we didn't think we could help him, given the short amount of time he probably had. We advised him, once he got "inside" to take up some routine physical activity... running, basketball, handball, weightlifting... anything so that he would, if nothing else, project an image and impression of being physically fit and, if accosted, capable of some resistance. It also would help with his mental attitude. We figured these would lessen his chance of being victimized. It might also put him amongst others with like mindsets and help give him the protection of a "herd." We never did find out if the advice was of any value.

    Anyway, I don't know if that counts as "teaching convicted drug dealers" but that's what we did.

    Cheers,

  9. #24
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    Default Thank you...

    Thank you, dojorat, for you and your sensei's wisdom in this situation. I certainly understand this "gentleman's" fear, but he isn't the mold that should learn what proper martial arts teach. If he was, he wouldn't have been messing with illegal drugs to begin with. Besides, who knows how many other crimes he may have committed before getting caught on this one. You don't even know if this is a possible parole violation, "Third Strike" conviction (for California), or what. You could be showing him how to protect his "ass"ets, but it might be some innocent victim that also gets the results of that training down the road sometime after he's out (return rates on felons is around the 90 percentile). He may even be wanting to know how to kill the person who snitched him to the police...

    So, just like my previous post, thank you for keeping my family, friends and self a little safer by turning this "gentleman" away. And, if all he does is come out a better basketball player in prison, that's just fine with me!

    In spirit of budo,
    Darren Dumas
    Darren Dumas
    Bujinkan Dojos of Sacramento
    www.budosac.com

  10. #25
    Dojorat Guest

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    Greetins,

    Mr. Dumas, on behalf of my instructor, you're quite welcome. This, like many other lessons a good teacher shares, wasn't part of any form.

    Mr. Cunningham,
    I found your question about the willingness of the other terrorists aboard the 9/11 flights most interesting. I quoted your message above and started a new thread on E-budo's "Spotlight on Terrorism" forum. I hope you don't mind.

    Cheers,

    Joe

  11. #26
    Reishiki Guest

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    I know it's been a while but........

    A quote from "Hagakure"
    "At the time when there was a council concerning the the promotion of a certain man, the council members where at the point of deciding that promotion was useless because of the fact that the man had previously been involved in a drunken brawl. But someone said " If we were to cast aside every man who had made a mistake once, useful men could probably not be come by. A man who makes a mistake once will be considerably more prudent and useful because of his repentance. I feel that he should be promoted." Someone else then asked, "Will you guarantee him?" The man replied, "Of course I will." The others asked, "By what will you guarantee him?" And he replied, " I can guarantee him by the fact that he is a man who has erred once. A man who has never once erred is dangerous." This said the man was promoted.

    Sometimes there are people out there who certainly aren't perfect. But maybe it's a martial arts teacher that they need most of all. If we were to turn them all away then they may just miss out on that one chance. A young lady came to me for training recently, in fact she was brought in by her priest. I knew that she was obviously not of good character. A few weeks passed and she disappeared and after enquiries I found out that she had ended up in jail. By going on what everyone has said so far I
    should have forgotten about her. But I received a call from her warder asking me to come and see her. You see, in those few weeks together I had made such an impact on her that all she could talk about was wanting to talk to me. A huge pat on the back I think and humble feelings of inflated ego, . But the point is, what good are we only teaching good people, they're already ok, why not try to teach a few bad ones as well and try to make a difference.

    Dean Woodhams.

  12. #27
    Kevin Meisner Guest

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    Good point, Dean!

    Kevin Meisner

  13. #28
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    Sorry to drag this one back from the dead, but I had missed it before and have something that I really want to add to it:
    My instructor in California, for whom I was assistant instructing, would often accept students (especially younger students) who were from rough backgrounds. I happen to think that some of those kids would have ended up washed up if it wasn't for him; even some of the adults that he accepted were questionable, but also benefitted a lot, I think. The main reasons that things worked out well, were
    a) We started with very basic, non-lethal material at the lower ranks. Lots of stance-work, basic strikes, balance drills, and a lot of blocking and evading stuff. We also put a lot of emphasis on cameraderie and sense of community, belonging to the dojo at the same time as the dojo partly belongs to you.
    b) When we tested students for rank promotion, we tested them hard. You can get a decent feel for someone in a normal class, but you can get a much better feel in a test when you really start leaning on them. The people who show attitude under pressure or react as if threatened in some way don't go on to the next rank, don't learn the more dangerous material, and get to work some more on the philosophical aspects of the art. This tends to weed out those who are just trying to become lethal weapons, while allowing those who might at first look questionable to stay and try and turn their lives around with the powerful force for change that is budo.
    Chuck Munyon
    charles.munyon@gmail.com
    University Hospitals, Case Medical Center

  14. #29
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    Default NLMontana

    I am a brand new member, and it was this particular discussion that drove me to register. This will probably not even be read, as it is ancient to all of you, but it burns in my solar plexus, because I really want to rage against all the judgment that was passed on a teacher who only did what he thought was the right thing.

    I am a former student of Bert Rodriguez. He is a man of the highest integrity. He is talented, capable, informative, a phenomenal teacher, and a man I will respect for all of my days as truly a Master, in every sense of the word. He takes responsibility for his actions, or inactions, as the case may be. But most importantly, he is human.

    Just because we wear the title of Master, Sifu, Shihan, etc., ad nauseum, and even if we have developed senses well beyond the physical, this does not mean that we are perfect. We all misjudge, both at and beyond the physical. There are those who have perfected the art of deception, who are capable of being exquisitely masked sheep, yet who eventually bear the fangs of a wolf. We are all tested -- every day -- some with more difficult tests to face than others. Passing or failing is not at issue. Facing these tests and their eventual outcomes and remaining standing tall regardless of the outcome, is the true test of mastery. In that regard, I think Master Rodriguez is a giant.

    Perhaps the answer to all of this is to go back to the true teachings of martial arts, where fighting at the physical is not only an illusion, but where we live the philosophy that the true study is of ourselves, not of the forms, and certainly not of fighting.

    Thank you.
    NLMontana Freemăn

  15. #30
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    Interesting. Reading the quote from "Hagakure" above brought to mind a teacher that went against the ruling of the council and ended up teaching the individual that became Darth Vader.

    There is a lot to be said for the fact that it takes years to become an effective martial artist. The traditional systems are more likely to screen out the less desireables simply through time. Those types tend to have less patience then those with the true budo temperament and quickly get tired of the repetition and the time it takes to learn kata and the like. Which gives rise to many of the 'fighting' schools that eliminate many of the traditional aspects.

    And while it would devastate me to learn that a former student had used the skills to evil purposes, it is, to a certain extent, offset by the students that have protected themselves and their families by what I have taught. There is a moral risk in almost everything that we do. If we are not willing to accept some level of risk, there is not much left for us to do in any aspect of our lives. I know a very skilled knife maker that created beautiful works of art, but stopped making knives upon learning that one of his creations had been used to kill someone.

    There is a Yin and Yang to all things.
    Respectfully
    Mark W. Swarthout, Shodan

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