Can Judo be used for Self Defence

[MarkF]

Ken,
Welcome to E-budo!

That was one of the best argument for sports as fighting styles, and fighting styles as sports.

I've only seen, perhaps, two UFC shows and thought, well, if a contest without rules says you should wear gloves and even head gear, I thought that alone made is less a no holds barred contest than some judo tournaments.
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Conrad Thalhammer, a past judo champion and Olympic competitor said, slightly paraphrased: "If you are not training for the Olympics, you shouldn't be training at all." I think most of those who are winners in the judo contests of International shiai probably think likewise to a point.

Another says "Wrestlers beat the judoka, and judoka beats the boxer (English boxing or karate). Most times, it is true enough for it to actually be a "saying."

Robert W. Smith, judoka, amoung other MA about which he has written, calls judo "Jacketed wrestling." I used to have a problem with that, but then, most judo players are not nearly specific enough to explain what we do in a "nutshell" so I suppose it is.

Smith, Draeger, and others have said, concerning the walk in the proverbial dark alley, would choose judoka as the one with whom they would take the walk.

Mike Swain has come out with something which really is a sport ("sport judo"), but the same holds true with boxers and wrestlers.

Anyway, thanks for your post.


If you take the trip here, you will find most on their, the Internation Judo Federation's forum, discuss judo (search for their forum, as I've forgotten which link gets you there) in the purely sporting aspect.

I found the shiai circuit worked better for me than discussing it for nineteen years or so. Injury[s] and age have shown me a newer light.

Anyway, I liked your post, Ken.

Mark

[efb8th]

Hi, all.

If you would like some Judo for self defense to introduce to your classes, I suggest Ruth Horan's JUDO FOR WOMEN (1965) Bonanza Books (pub.), New York. And of course, whenever you go over the prohibited acts (Dho Jime, Kani Basami, Hands on Face, Feet on face, strikes, locks against joints other than the elbow, standing armlock takedowns, etc.), it's always good to point out why the acts are prhobited for contest and make sure your students KNOW HOW TO USE THEM! (Should the need arise.)

It is also profitable to go over the "fouls" of other sports to pick up good self-defense techniques. For example, Hook punch to the groin, following through with the elbow after throwing a punch, rabbit punch, kidney punch, head butt: you get the picture.

One man's foul is another man's jujitsu.

Regards,

[Paul Steadman]

Hi Again All,

So judo can be used for self-defence if a particular sensei/dojo gears itself towards self-defence training as opposed to sports training and winning tournaments! I am sure that the majority of hard training athletes such as judoka. karateka, aikidoka, greco-roman wrestlers and boxers etc have a better chance of defending themselves than those people who don't participate in a martial arts or combat sports. But I don't believe that the garden variety judoka (or other budoka) who trains in a limited, rules-bound, sports competition manner (this ap[plies to BJJ as well) is prepared to face a person intent on doing them physical harm.

A lot of people talk about cross-training. Do a bit of judo, a bit of karate, kick-boxing, wrestling, arnis/eskrima, boxing etc, etc, etc, to round out the total fighter. The funny thing is that the majority of Eastern and Western martial arts contained; long distance techniques (punching & kicking), close in techniques, take-downs, throws, holds, weapons (all manner of bladed, stick and firearms) and weapons disarms etc.

The ancient Samurai didn't train in his military arts ("bu'" means military) with a methodoligy or with a psychology of sports competition or winning tournaments, neither did the hoplites or Roman soldier. But now we have derivatives of these old systems that concentrate on only one or a few areas of combat and with winning tournaments in mind.

I bet Kano Jigoro-Sensei didn't have to cross train in karate or arnis de mano!

Boxers break their knuckles in confrontations out of the ring, olympic fencers get stabbed in real duels, judoka get pricked by blood filled syringes, kendoka get their legs whacked from out underneath them etc. All because people tend to fight how they train! Please don't tell me that kata training breeds ill-prepared combatants that don't stand a chance in a real fight because they are too stagnant and unimaginative. Kata based training worked fairly well for the Samurai, the Ching/Han/Ming soldiers, the hoplites and the roman soldier etc right up to modern security, police and military personell.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

[dakotajudo]

Originally posted by Paul Steadman
But I don't believe that the garden variety judoka (or other budoka) who trains in a limited, rules-bound, sports competition manner (this ap[plies to BJJ as well) is prepared to face a person intent on doing them physical harm.

I would suspect you've not competed, since I've been in shiai against a person intent on doing physical harm.

Boxers break their knuckles in confrontations out of the ring, olympic fencers get stabbed in real duels, judoka get pricked by blood filled syringes, kendoka get their legs whacked from out underneath them etc.

Blood filled syringes? Do you have proof for these claims?

All because people tend to fight how they train! Please don't tell me that kata training breeds ill-prepared combatants that don't stand a chance in a real fight because they are too stagnant and unimaginative. Kata based training worked fairly well for the Samurai, the Ching/Han/Ming soldiers, the hoplites and the roman soldier etc right up to modern security, police and military personell.

Regards,

Paul Steadman

How does kata training better prepare you to face a person intent on doing harm than randori training? Some of my best performance in randori and shiai happened when I was truly afraid the person I was facing would hurt me.

Just calling something sport-oriented does not make it a game.

[Kit LeBlanc]

And just calling it koryu does not make it effective in self defense. We are going down the same road, twice, in the same thread, yet. Well, here's more of the SAME...

Paul, koryu jujutsuka would fall prey to EVERY one of your examples listed above...and may not have the resolve and toughness developed from years of competitive and resistive style training to overcome it.

As for modern police and military personnel...increasingly we are being introduced to more and more force-on-force training (i.e. resistive drills, though not quite randori) because it is being shown to be much more effective for combative performance. Like judo, and like koryu kata, it is not the real thing, and like them has a set of rules for safety depending upon the nature of the training.

I think that kata probably worked for the bushi, and for ancient Chinese warriors because:

1) It was probably done much differently than most jujutsu kata are practiced today

2) They actually went out and USED it.... and adjusted what they were practicing from their experience.

I guess we don't know, since even Dr. Karl Friday says that the way koryu are practiced today probably has little in common with the way they were practiced when they were arts for battle.

I would bet that many bushi were also very familiar with resistive training, as in sumo, but didn't consider sumo a combat art, because it wasn't done in armor, and didn't use weapons. That being said, I am sure they understood that they GAINED a great deal of skill that APPLIED to close quarters combat, but had enough imagination and experience in combat to recognize that and apply it appropriately. Many modern koryu practitioners and headmasters of ryu hold high ranking and have competitive experience in judo, kendo, and jukendo, for example. Maybe it is this experience that has made them effective (if they are such) and allows them to use their koryu methods in realistic ways?

Many techniques in koryu kata are practical and useful....if done properly in a realistic context, which kata is generally not. Many, even in some of the highly respected systems, are ludicrous pantomime of real world fighting. I know at least one koryu method which recognizes this and changes its kata regularly based on how the techniques work in practical, resistive training.

There are reasons, and there is practical usefulness to training koryu. But, like anything else, it needs to be tweaked to make it realistic. Same thing with judo, but with a caveat....real fights look a lot more like judo and wrestling with some punches and kicks thrown in than they do koryu kata or aikido.

[MarkF]

BTW: Boxers break their knuckles with gloves on and in the ring. outside the ring, rarely more than one punch is necessary.
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What is it that brings the troll out who start a thread with preconceived ideas, sits around for a few months, asks the same basic questions in most forums, then comes back to tell us we don't have the slightest?

One answer may be that most give the troll the benefit of the doubt and answers his queries. It is a shame the troll never stays long enough to discuss his question, but to do otherwise he may learn something. Trolls go in believing what they believe, and when they do come back completey ignore those who have studied the subject, some for decades.

[William F. Kincaid]

Well for those who remember me from posts along time ago, (college, National Guard, teaching, Judo, Aikido, and work kept me away from here), know that I like the self defense aspect of Judo more than the shiai aspect. Funny how injuries make you see that.lol. I recently tried a form of Uki-Tori in which more self defense techniques were utilized. this was done by asking the uki to throw slow but honest attacks at tori and it was tori's job to defend his or herself from the attack. The results it produced were amazing. while they knew various self defense techniques, (they are required for advancement in their Dojo) their timing was totally off and they couldn't get out of kata learning mode. (knowing what technique was coming when it was coming and where it was coming from.). So afterwards i sat down with them and discussed this and they came to the same conclusion. Kata is important very important especially in teaching the techniques to judoka, but like shiai you can become trapped in its framework and actually start hurting your Judo progression. So now when we have a self defense night or day.lol We end the class by doing an hour or so of self defense randori.

Don't know if this helps or not but seemed like a good place to explain this.

[MarkF]

As I teach pretty much as taught, I've found those who train in all-out randori (a rule which can be found in most editions of Kodokan Judo) even abiding the rule of randori/shiai of no purposefully dangerous techniques, are better able to defend themselves.

The age thing, along with injuries can change you in all sorts of ways, including finding more and interesting things not included when fighting on the "circuit," so to speak.

That said, there is a ton of technique which can make you better, later.


Mark

[MarkF]

Hi, Ed,
If you are looking for your post and replies to it, I thought it would make a good, new thread. You did ask for specifics concerning technique so I hope you don't mind.

It is titled as you titled the post "Judo Is Real."


Mark

[MTripp]

If you are looking to see Judo taught as an excellent system of self-defense then Stadion sells a tape on the subject that is the best work I have ever seen.

As to the rest, this subject seems to come down to the same sides it always does.

In truth, NO unarmed system is going to be very effective in todays world. Even Draeger said to carry a extendable baton like tha japanese police use, and all unarmed styes would fall to it (yes, doing so is illegal in most places).

However, he also said plainly that the true judoka who fought in randori or shiai, even a brown belt, was the unarmed fighter to take into a rough bar.

Today, we know that Combatives is a very different subject than martial art or martial sport. However, even the first father of combatives, William Fairbairn had a nidan from Kano, and the top three combative people who created sambo had a kodokan nidan among them.

You don't win WW2 with WW1 weapons, Wally Jay has said that for years, all combatives is an evolving process and as such is a very different training arena.

However, once combative concepts are mastered, I find a martial sport keeps the skill levels sharp.

For me, that martial sport has always been Judo.

[MarkF]

So can it be used in Self-defense?


Mark

[Barry Southam]

Hello,

We shouldn't have to be discussing can Judo be used for selfdefense ! Kodokan Judo has as you all know nage Waza, osaekomi Waza, Shime Waza, Kansetsu Waza, ATEMI WAZA, BLOCKING/PARRYING and the PRINCIPLES and TECHNIQUES that are learned through the study of KATA.

Judo is a very effective method of selfdefense. We all learn Osoto gari but it's how we apply it that may be different. I may be interested in how to apply the throw in a selfdefense situation whereas another individual who is interested in sport, may want to practice the application in contest.

Judo is a martial art with the sporting aspect as an added benefit of studying Judo. If we study ALL the areas of Judo, we can put them together to meet all of our selfdefense needes. EVen those who are restricted as to the use of force would benefit greatly from the Principles and techniques of Judo. In Judo we have a very wide and flexible spectrum as to our response to an attack. We can go from mild to severe in our response based on our ability and situation. We have choices and are not limited to a response of severity and causing injury.

Some people since the 1964 olympics have been brought up in an atmosphere of only sport judo and it's no fault of their own , that some may not even realize that Judo contains striking and jointlocks other than on the elbow,etc.,etc.,. Judo is a martial art and olympic sport.

Take Care

Barry E. Southam

[Jay Vail]

The question whether judo is effective for combat is one that has been exhaustively debated in this forum before. Then, as now, questions were raised about whether judo’s modern emphasis on sport have deprived it of martial effectiveness. Then, as now, people have weighed in on both sides, and many long time judoka have emotionally defended it as effective even given the sad degeneration that one sees due to its emphasis on sport.

As a derivative -- or as some may consider a ryu -- of jujutsu, judo certainly has the potential to be effective in combat and for street defense.

As for its effectiveness, please allow me to give a bit of personal testimony. I have trained in karate for 35 years. Before that, I trained in judo for two years starting in 1964. I was 12 when I started judo. During the six years between my start of judo and when I started karate, I had about two dozen street fights. Some were very serious punch outs and some involved weapons. I have had knives pulled on me and I have been stabbed twice.

In those fights (with the exception of the stabbings), I was able to use judo very effectively to defend myself. That is not to say that I was able to “win” the fight every time; there were a number that I got stomped. But judo gave me a valuable edge and often enabled me to avoid what could have been serious injury. The techniques I employed ranged from atemi with the hands, elbows and feet, to throws.

Even as recently as 12-13 years ago, I had the occasion to use judo to defend against an attack at a soccer game, when a guy tried to punch me (threw the guy with koshi-garuma; after that he decided he didn’t want to fight after all).

Consequently, I have the greatest respect for judo. I have used it whenever the opportunity arises in karate freeplay as well, and I will undoubtedly use it again if I ever have the misfortune to face the threat of real violence.

I will add one thing, which arises from my experience, although this will probably inflame some people. I don’t think much of trying to choke somebody out on the street or in ground fighting. I have seen people who went to ground wrestling stomped by bystanders. I also have had friends of my opponent intervene when we were on the ground. The ground generally is a place to be avoided if you can possibly do so, if you want to avoid a trip to the hospital. You may want to put the guy on the ground, but you want to finish him quickly once he’s there.

[Barry Southam]

Friends,

I think the reason that people today discuss whether or not Judo is effective in a selfdefense situation. Is the focus it has been given for years as a sport and organizations such as the USJA prefix the word with sport many times instead of just Judo. Most non martial artists don't question Taekwondo's capeability to be used in selfdefense, even though it's being pushed as a sport. Why should Judo be singled out with this discussion. After all as I and others have mentioned, we have all the categories needed and the flexibility to be gentle when needed or more forceful if appropriate. Even Taekwondo and some Karate systems cannot say that. I don't see any reason why people cannot look at Judo as "Judo" which is a martial art that has also been accepted as an olympic sport. When looking for a dojo, you just find out what the instructor's focus is: selfdefense, sport, or both.Including youth or adult emphasis.
Maybe there must be a revitalization(publicity) as to Judo as an effective selfdefense system. This may keep possible future students of Judo who are looking for a means of selfdefense from walking towards the Taekwondo and karate schools and become enlightened as to what a Judo Dojo has to offer.
I don't think anyone is mugged from a distance and therefore Judo is ideal for both young, middle age and older.Especially youth and those working in employment settings where there are regulations as to the use of force.
You might not use seoinage but there are many other throws and applications that are readily available when the safety of the assailant is important. Such as working in special education with emotionally disturbed students, hospitals,police work and the general school population from students to teachers. Not to mention the general public since we must abide by the law in appropriate response to an attack.

Hope everyone has a nice weekend.

Barry E. Southam

[Richard Riehle]

In one of the dojos where I teach and practice, someone asked about using Judo for self-defense. There was a sense, among some, that Judo had, as one contributor to this forum suggested "an over-reliance on the grabbing the gi."

During the many years I have been training in Judo, I have developed a pretty good sense of timing with my ashi-waza. So I asked someone to come and grab me. As they reached out for me, I pushed them down to the mat with one hand. At least that is how it appeared to anyone watching. I actually took advantage of the movement of the attacker's feet and took the right foot away with a small ko uchi gari at the same time I pushed.

I have demonstrated the value of this kind of thing using many different ashi-waza, including de ashi harai and sasae tsurikomi ashi. I have even used it to defend myself on rare occasions during my mispent youth.

An important idea in defending oneself is to avoid injuring the attacker. Professor Kano once suspended a high-ranking member of the Kodokan who injured a person while defending himself against a large gang of thugs on the streets of old Tokyo. Shihan Kano said, "A person with your skill should have been able to control the situation so no one was hurt."

The essence of Judo, also true of Aikido, is not to defeat an attacker, but to help that attacker learn the folly of his ways and, having learned a valuable lesson, move on to become a better person. We do not simply "turn the other cheek." Rather, we turn the other person, turning them, if possible, toward a more acceptable set of behaviors.

Richard Riehle