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Thread: Origins of Ippon??

  1. #1

    Default Origins of Ippon??

    Hi guys - a question from a curious newbie...

    First of all, I don't practise judo - but I watch it on TV whenever I can (and the style of (British) jujutsu I train in is fairly heavily based on judo).

    My question concerns the origins of the 'Ippon' score in tournaments being defined as a clean throw which results in the opponent landing on their back.

    My curiosity is due to watching so many competitors twisting in mid air as they were thrown to minimise the score.

    Now it seems to me that (from a self-defence point of view) being thrown onto your back would be preferable to being thrown onto your front, as you would still be able to see your attacker.

    So is the Ippon 'on your back' thing because
    a) it's easier for tournament referees to see
    b) when executed correctly most throws result in Uke landing on their back anyway?

    Also, am I correct about the self-defence aspect, or would you prefer to land on your front (for easy breakfalling/quick getaways)?

    Cheers,

    Mike

  2. #2
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    I don't know about the self-defense options, but landing the opponent fully on their back is one of the required elements for an ippon score in judo. The others include clean technique, speed, and power.

  3. #3
    BrianV Guest

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    Hi Mike,
    I am not sure about the Judo scoring implications, but can tell you that , when thrown, the last place you want to be for a self defense application would be on your stomach in the prone postion, so just about ANYTHING would be better than that.

    Regards,

  4. #4
    BrianV Guest

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    Hey Look!!!
    I must be the King......no.......the SOKE of teh run on sentence!!!!

    WooooooHooooo!!!!!!

    Do I outrank a Dai Soke Don?

    Ah well, back to remedial english lessons....

    with humblest overtones,
    I remain..

  5. #5
    Ben_Holmes Guest

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    "Now it seems to me that (from a self-defence point of view) being thrown onto your back would be preferable to being thrown onto your front, as you would still be able to see your attacker."

    Yes... I agree. Were I somehow faced with someone capable of throwing me in a self-defense scenario, I would *LOVE* to land on my back.

    On the other hand, when throwing someone in a self-defense situation, you don't necessarily want them to land on their back. Were the situation a life and death one, you could intentionally land your opponent on his head (depending on the throw) to end the encounter. Most people don't react well to being smashed into the ground head-first from a few feet up. As an example, one time that I used Judo (outside of the dojo), I purposely landed my opponent on the point of his shoulder, with a really nice (and sharp) arm pull. I got a very nice dislocation of the shoulder, which stopped the confrontation.


    "So is the Ippon 'on your back' thing because
    a) it's easier for tournament referees to see"

    No... it's simply the *safest* way to land your opponents. Since we throw each other many times a night in practice, we certainly wish to continue practicing, rather than alway be out with injuries. In competition, we twist out to demonstrate that the person throwing us *DID NOT* have the ability to completely control the throw.

    "b) when executed correctly most throws result in Uke landing on their back anyway?"

    No. In Judo, we land people that way on purpose, to avoid injury. You can actually land people many ways, depending on the throw, and your intention.

    These are, of course, only my opinions, and perhaps others can offer more information on this...

  6. #6
    MarkF Guest

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    I'm not so sure landing on one's back if not trained would feel too good about it, either, but in general I agree with Don, Brian, and Ben.

    Ippon is called to end a match in which good waza put the opponent there, he falls hard onto more than fifty percent of his back on the mat, and he also hits with force. The fifty percent thing, however, is really a variable. A good, clean effort with the opponent landing on his side may or may not be called ippon, it is a judgement call. In International Tournaments it is probably called more strictly and "more than fifty percent" would probably be the decider when there is a difference.

    In the old shi-ni-ai tournaments, matches went until one could not continue, or when a judge said he could not continue for fear of more injury. Ippon is a symbolic, combative victory called so that one can come back another day to fight with relatively little injury. It is simply on a continuum from the older days to the modern shiai.

    People do all sorts of crazy things to influence the call, and sometimes it works, but may also be more injurious.

    But do not take this to mean injury doesn't happen, infact, it happens all too often, but relatively speaking, it is probably the number one rule which prevents injury.

    Mark

  7. #7

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    Thanks guys, I hadn't considered the safety aspect. That certainly makes a lot of sense.

    I also knew (or should have known) about throwing people so they land differently (shoulder, head, etc...) - I just hadn't considered it.

    I do agree that being thrown hard onto your back if untrained in Ukemi would be a bummer 'though...

    Cheers for the input.

    Mike.

  8. #8
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    Shoot, I am trained in ukemi and I got thrown once real hard by a wrestler I was working with. Totally caught me off guard and landed me straight on my back with him on top of me driving into my chest. Knocked all the wind out of me and left me stunned for several seconds! Had that been a street encounter, he could have punched the crap out of me while I lay there in a daze...

  9. #9
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

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    Originally posted by MarkF
    I'm not so sure landing on one's back if not trained would feel too good about it, either, but in general I agree with Don, Brian, and Ben.

    Ippon is called to end a match in which good waza put the opponent there, he falls hard onto more than fifty percent of his back on the mat, and he also hits with force. The fifty percent thing, however, is really a variable. A good, clean effort with the opponent landing on his side may or may not be called ippon, it is a judgement call. In International Tournaments it is probably called more strictly and "more than fifty percent" would probably be the decider when there is a difference.

    In the old shi-ni-ai tournaments, matches went until one could not continue, or when a judge said he could not continue for fear of more injury. Ippon is a symbolic, combative victory called so that one can come back another day to fight with relatively little injury. It is simply on a continuum from the older days to the modern shiai.

    People do all sorts of crazy things to influence the call, and sometimes it works, but may also be more injurious.

    But do not take this to mean injury doesn't happen, infact, it happens all too often, but relatively speaking, it is probably the number one rule which prevents injury.

    Mark
    Hi Mark and all,

    Landing on one's side should NEVER be called ippon under the current IJF rules. A straight side landing can never be anything higher than yuko. The only judgement is whether or not uke landed with any of his/her back on the mat to differentiate between yuko and waza ari or Ippon.

    One can land first on the side and then be rolled to the back, which COULD be upgraded to waza ari, depending on where most of the impact occured.

    Regards,

    Ben Reinhardt

  10. #10
    MarkF Guest

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    You're right, Ben, and I'd bow to your experience in referring at any time, but I didn't mean a 45 degree on your side as may be practiced in ukemi, but you have given one example. I saw in one match (women's) in which uke rolled off the back of tori very slowlyto the mat, and as she rolled, ended on her back which was called waza-ari by the mat judge, but was changed to Ippon when a corner judge disagreed.

    In the old days, a match in which the opponent was thrown with a clear and successful slam on the side in which uke hits and slaps the mat for protection, was considered Ippon by most.

    Not all shiai involve black belts, nor do all of them involve adults.

    On the other hand, I was called when my foot was swept and I started to go down, and went for tomoenage, which worked. Unfortuantely, the shinban (who was my teacher) called it ippon for the attack instead of the counter, as I also was on the warning area when I began my counter. That would have been around 1971 or so. It may have been different if it happened in the middle of the mat. Who knows? I didn't ask about it.

    Mark

  11. #11
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    People do all sorts of crazy things to influence the call, and sometimes it works, but may also be more injurious.
    I tried a one-hand cartwheel to prevent ippon during the middleweight final in the '95 Chicago Open. I successfully prevented the ippon by avoiding landing on my back, but the stress on my 45-year-old left wrist was too much, cracking the bone just above the joint. I continued to win the gold, but that was about the last of my competitive experiences due to the injury.

    I'm not really adding anything to this discussion. I'm just taking the opportunity to brag about old victories.

  12. #12
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

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    Originally posted by MarkF
    You're right, Ben, and I'd bow to your experience in referring at any time, but I didn't mean a 45 degree on your side as may be practiced in ukemi, but you have given one example. I saw in one match (women's) in which uke rolled off the back of tori very slowlyto the mat, and as she rolled, ended on her back which was called waza-ari by the mat judge, but was changed to Ippon when a corner judge disagreed.

    In the old days, a match in which the opponent was thrown with a clear and successful slam on the side in which uke hits and slaps the mat for protection, was considered Ippon by most.

    Not all shiai involve black belts, nor do all of them involve adults.

    On the other hand, I was called when my foot was swept and I started to go down, and went for tomoenage, which worked. Unfortuantely, the shinban (who was my teacher) called it ippon for the attack instead of the counter, as I also was on the warning area when I began my counter. That would have been around 1971 or so. It may have been different if it happened in the middle of the mat. Who knows? I didn't ask about it.

    Mark
    Mark,

    As you describe it, a typical (correct) ukemi landing does land uke partially on his/her back. It's not good form to do, say, a zempo kaiten ukemi waza and land flush on your side. One is kind of angled towards the back a bit. I think that's what you are talking about when yous say side landing ? In any case, that's a back landing, not a side landing, as far as refereeing is concerned. If uke is overrated a bit, either by tori or in an attempt to escape the ippon, then a flat side landing may result, which can only be yuko.

    In your own case, it's a tough call. Nowadays, doing such a move is perilous, regardless of position on the mat. If tori initiates, and you don't regain control somehow, and you hit the mat first,it's going to be, by definition, a score for your opponent.

    Regards,

    Ben Reinhardt

  13. #13
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

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    Originally posted by Don Cunningham

    I tried a one-hand cartwheel to prevent ippon during the middleweight final in the '95 Chicago Open. I successfully prevented the ippon by avoiding landing on my back, but the stress on my 45-year-old left wrist was too much, cracking the bone just above the joint. I continued to win the gold, but that was about the last of my competitive experiences due to the injury.

    I'm not really adding anything to this discussion. I'm just taking the opportunity to brag about old victories.
    Don,

    Yoshida ended up with a severly broken arm when he did it !

    How about some written documentation of your victory, Don. I think you are just trying to gather a cult following of judoka, based on false claims of victories in competition.

    JUST JOKING !

    I did the same thing at the Continental Crown last month. It worked though, and I didn't break my 38 year old wrist.

    Regards,

    Ben Reinhardt

  14. #14
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    I really did break my wrist. Of course, I didn't think I had at the time. I thought it was just a bad sprain. It just kept hurting and finally I had to get an x-ray. Eight weeks in a brace and lots of anti-inflammatory meds later...

    I had beaten this competitor once before, but he came back up through the loser's repechage. Since it was the final and we were both pretty tired, I thought it would be an easy second victory. So I was shocked when he almost scored ippon on me. I stood up and "bumped" him for a koka, mainly to get back on the mat. Then I flipped him and held him in ushiro kesa-gatame so I wouldn't have to use my left hand. It was a sloppy win, but what the heck? I got the medal. Wanna see it?
    Last edited by Don Cunningham; 9th October 2001 at 21:02.

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