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  1. #61
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default

    For those who remember some of the Kenkojuku demos in South Florida you will rememnber that Mr. Ken Ogawa--although he is a Goju stylist-- often participated.

    Photo of Ogawa doing a form can be viewed in the e-budo bookstore section. ( book , 'Steady Training')

    AB

  2. #62
    yiyo Guest

    Default Happy New Year.!!

    Hi there everyone. Its good to hear that alot of yous are back responding on this thread. Its a real shame that there were several posts that got erased because of a malfunction and/or a virus at E-Budo headquarters.
    I believe there is so much we can share from present and former Kenkojuku soldiers as well as friends that we have associated ourselves with in karate-do. All of these stories from everyone are just simply great experiences that we can all relate to whether we were there or not. In a way, though we are thinking differently, its a shame we can not all come together and experience this again.???
    I believe there were about 3-4 generations of the Kenkojuku association here in South Florida. Think about this for a second and maybe we can elaborate on this a little. I know that there is Kenkojuku in Japan, Miami, California, and New York, but, this South Florida alumni group that was created over the years (regardless of rank) was very special.

    P. Castillo
    Yiyo

  3. #63
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default Toyotaro Miyazaki

    Last year I found a website for T. Miyazaki's dojo.
    I can't seem to find it now, any info.

  4. #64
    Tommy_P Guest

    Default T. Miyazaki

    Hi Guys,

    I read this thread with great interest since I am a student Of Toyotaro Miyazaki, and received my black belt from him in 1987. As for Mr. Bustillo's question about the Miyazaki website, to the best of my knowledge it no longer exists. I left NY awhile back and opened my own dojo here in PA, an affiliate of the Miyazaki dojo. He obviously will always be kenkojuku and thats pretty much what he still teaches although he became his own school many years ago, 1975 I think, T. Miyazaki's U.S. Shotokai" so he no longer refers to himself as kenkojuku. I'm not sure but that may have been when he split his partnership with Takahashi?

    I have to say it makes me a bit proud to read such great comments on my instructor. As a long time martial artist it amazes me sometimes how I might hear some new revelation about technique or kata and say to myself," wow, I learned that from sensei years ago but never really thought about it, or " ahhh, so thats what he meant......way ahead of his time.

    As far as weapons that were mentioned, he knew quite a bit. His favotite being the bo. He has a scar on his forearm from training sword with Okano at the Kenkojuku.

    Back in the mid 80's he met Toshihiro Oshiro of Matsubayashi shorin and things would never be the same for wepons training. Once he saw "Yamanni-ryu" weapons he thought what he had been doing up to then was an embarresment and abandoned it to train with Ohsiro sensei. He adopted Yamanni-ryu and it is required by students these days. He eventually became the east coast director for that system "Ryuku Bujutsu Kenkyu Doyukai".

    Kata at our dojo was practiced until it was coming out of your ears but kumite was our big thing and the Miyazaki honbu where I trained was known for there fighting. We fought for points but only as an after thought after we were worn from constant regular hard sparring against one partner then against two and then three at times.

    Miyazaki was always pretty open and saw the benifits of training in other things. He didn't mind as long as in class you kept shotokan, shotokan. I guess this comes from Okano whom Miyazaki told me, used to have instructors from other styles come to the Kenkujuku to teach. When he came here in 1967 Miyazaki was armed with spinning kicks and such that at that time were not prevelent in typical JKA shotokan.

    His kicks always amazed me and seemed to suck the air out of the room. His chamber was incredibly deep and I suppose this comes from a story he used to tell about training with Okano. He said they had a hat with a ball hanging from it on a string. They were made to front kick the ball.....very close to the body. Even his side kicks were powerfull from up close. He, as well as many of his students could side kick you in the gut (hard) from 2 feet away and we used to practice side kicking while holding your partners hand.

    I saw Miyazaki sensei last month and we talked as usual about my training....he asked as usual if I was still doing the Kyokushin thing. Unfortunately thes days he is not in the best of health. He apears like one who has parkinsons but they say that's not it. His spirits are good and he still teaches when he feels up to it. He is farm more soft spoken in class though. karate is his life and he just keeps going.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Tommy Pressimone

  5. #65
    n2shotokai Guest

    Default Toyotaro Miyazaki

    Mr. Pressimone,

    as a Shoto-kai practitioner I find your post intriguing. I have noticed web references to Toyotaro Miyazaki being head of U.S. Shotokai, although every link I could find was a dead end.

    I mean no offense with my curiosity. My question is .......

    Is Mr. T. Miyazaki Shotokan or Shoto-kai? I am not familiar with some of the people you mentioned so I am unsure of the lineage.

    In the early 1960's, a Sgt. Smith was head of the U.S. Shotokai, but contact was lost with him, so the remaining schools in the U.S. either lost contact with Japan or had to travel back to Japan to re-establish contact. To my knowledge, no one in this group (my instructor included) was placed in charge of the U.S. Shotokai. Every goup was on their own although authorized to instruct Shoto-kai Karate-do.

    This group of indiviuals is but one group of the Shoto-kai, as there are other groups and who is to say which group in Japan is authorized to authorize any individual to be "U.S. Shotokai". Shigeru Egami was the head of the Shoto-kai after Gichin Funakoshi. After Egami it becomes very unclear. This is the time period my instructor received his last certificate before leaving for the U.S. This certificate states his instructor was head of the Shoto-kai with two Shoto-kai subordinates also signing the certification. It is clear as mud to me. This is why I am curious regarding Mr. Miyazaki. If Mr. Miyazaki is from Japan Shoto-kai, perhaps he could shed some light on the subject.

    Steve Beale

  6. #66
    Tommy_P Guest

    Default

    Kenkojuku is the "school" name that Miyazaki trained at. It was headed by T. Okano who studied under Funakoshi and his son. It's "shotokan". Miyazaki eventually broke from the kenkojuku school and now calls his school Miyazaki's U.S. shotokai. Shotokai as in shoto association or organization not as style such as Egami's shotokai. There is also a JKA notable (who's name eludes me at the moment) who broke from JKA and now calls his org. _ _ _ _ shotokai.

    Miyazaki teaches shotokan, the association is shotokai. Just like a Goju practitioner would belong to the goju-kai.

    Tommy

  7. #67
    n2shotokai Guest

    Default Kai

    Originally posted by Tommy_P
    There is also a JKA notable (who's name eludes me at the moment) who broke from JKA and now calls his org. _ _ _ _ shotokai.

    Miyazaki teaches shotokan, the association is shotokai. Just like a Goju practitioner would belong to the goju-kai.

    Tommy
    That would be Asai, and I understand his break from JKA was in fact a Japanese court battle over who would lead JKA and he lost the rights to use the JKA name. Although there are many similarities Shotokan to Shotokai (same roots) there are also many differences philosophicaly and in technique. In my mind, today Shotokan and Shotokai are worlds apart, like oil and water. That being said, what is Shotokan? I don't believe there is one answer. From one Shotokan org to the next, they are very different.

    Egami Shotokai is much the same. Some of what Egami espoused was borrowed and other parts discarded by other Shotokai groups. Egami was only the most well known of these as he was the head of Shotokai until his death.

    Thank you very much for clearing that up! My little mystery solved!

    Respectfully,

    Steve Beale

  8. #68
    Tommy_P Guest

    Default

    Steve,

    Although there are many similarities Shotokan to Shotokai (same roots) there are also many differences philosophicaly and in technique. In my mind, today Shotokan and Shotokai are worlds apart, like oil and water. That being said, what is Shotokan? I don't believe there is one answer. From one Shotokan org to the next,they are very different.


    This is very true and is a whole other debate
    I believe there are acceptable differences between schools (to a point), the instructors own flavor if you will.

    As for Kenkujuku, or Miyazaki's shotokai, it's not like your typical Egami shotokai and it's not like Oshima's karate either whether he calls it shotokan or shotokai. It's closer to jka as far as how the kata are performed (tempo and power wise). Maybe a little faster and less stacato.

    The kata are different though slightly. They are said to be closer to what Funakoshi was doing before going to Japan. For instance we use Nijushi rather than Nijushi-ho. Other kata have slight differences but they are performed hard unlike the shotokai.

    Tommy

  9. #69
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default

    Mr. Tom P.

    Thanks for your contribution to this Kenkojuku thread. Excellent.
    In addition, I second your statement that T. Okano's shotokan and Miyazaki's brand of karate are different from Egami' and Oshimas shotokai.

  10. #70
    n2shotokai Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Tommy_P
    Steve,

    This is very true and is a whole other debate
    I believe there are acceptable differences between schools (to a point), the instructors own flavor if you will.

    The kata are different though slightly. They are said to be closer to what Funakoshi was doing before going to Japan. For instance we use Nijushi rather than Nijushi-ho. Other kata have slight differences but they are performed hard unlike the shotokai.

    Tommy
    I was always a traditionalist to the point I fely any modification to katas from "Karate-do Kyohan" were unacceptable. Two things happened to change my thinking. First I watched some SKA people performing kata and realized they were not the same as "Karate-do Kyohan". SKA being Ohshima and hey isn't that Ohshima in the "Karate-do Kyohan" pictures! Second, I read "Karate, My Way of Life". O'sensei points out that kata "should be" changed from instructor to instructor (to a point). Today I see value everywhere I go (McDojo's excepted). Although Shoto-kai is purely non-competitive I love to go and watch the katas at tournaments. So much can be learned from other styles and schools.

    For clarification, Shotokai is much the same as Shotokan in that each group has evolved in it's own direction. We each think the others group "looks a little strange" to what "we do".
    Other kata have slight differences but they are performed hard unlike the shotokai.
    Kata for example, most Shotokai schools perform "soft" and flowing with constant movement. Our group is soft and hard. Katas are almost always hard, 100% ki with varying tempo. To beginners and intermediates it looks the same as JKA.

    To me it all has value and neither Shotokan nor Shotokai can be pigeon holed. Way too many variations.

    Steve Beale
    Shoto-kai Karate-do

  11. #71
    hector gomez Guest

    Default My childhood idol

    These are pictures I took while visiting Miyazakis dojo in flushing
    N.Y around 1978.1) picture Miyazaki sensei executes a kick at student
    2)Miyazaki dojo outside3)Miyazaki sensei performing with the bo.

    I don't care if he calls it shotokan,shotokai or shotodon'tcare.He was
    one bad man.


    Hector Gomez
    Last edited by hector gomez; 5th July 2002 at 20:35.

  12. #72
    Tommy_P Guest

    Default

    Hector,

    Great pics and great memories. The sign outside the dojo has the old school name "tokutai karate-do". At the time that was his only school. A couple of years later he opened another in Astoria queens. That dojo pictured is where I trained. The blue mat eventually was changed and made bigger as he leased the adjoining space on that floor. He has since moved a few miles up the road (Northern blvd.)
    Great pics
    Thanks
    Tommy

  13. #73
    hector gomez Guest

    Default traditional, but open minded

    Tommy,

    I am glad you enjoyed the pictures,They were taken
    after we droped in during our stay for the AAU nationals in hackensack N,J.

    At that time I believe,Mr.Miyazaki was the head of the kenkojuko,
    There were very few japaneese black belts competing in open tournaments back in the early 70s,as most traditional shotokan practicioners competed in mostly traditional tournaments only.


    Miyazaki fought,if I remember correctly the likes of Chuck Norris,louis delgado,and most of all of those N.Y fighters of that era,I don't remeber how but I know he injured his knee and continued to compete in major open kata tournaments with a lot of success.

    I also remember him training a little with P.K.A lightweight
    champion paul vizzio.


    Hector Gomez

  14. #74
    Tommy_P Guest

    Default

    Hector,

    You are correct about Miyazaki fighting against Norris and delgado etc. Miyazaki himself never spoke about any of his competition but if questioned he may offer a few (very few) words. He did say that Norris was always in top shape.

    I know there was a bit of contreversy over the scoring back then because they didn't like the Japanese guy beating the Americans. He said once in an interview that he competed to show that traditional karate could win. He did all his kata strictly traditional and faught clean with solid technique.

    You are also correct about Paul Vizzio. He teaches Fu jow pai kung fu and that is where he began his MA training under Wai hong (SP?) He faught underground full contact matches and was champion in that arena back in the 60's I think. Somehow he was also a black belt at our dojo and was there in the afternoons and on saturdays teaching as well as training along with us. He was one of the panel members for my shodan test along with Miyazaki. Miyazaki was the one who talked Vizzio into going into kickboxing where he became the super lightweight champ.

    I know that in his 40's he came back and became champ again.

    He was pretty incredible for a small guy and I always remember his feet and knuckles. The knuckles were like golf balls and the bone just below his big toe was like a small tennis ball. Miyazaki was the same and I always remember comparing Miyazaki's feet to Fred Flinstone because they were so square. They looked like bricks and if he kicked you, you were sure they were! Mr. Vizzio's whole family (wife and kids) trained with us as well as at his kung fu school. His wife is a black belt and a great fighter.

    Tommy

  15. #75
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default

    Miyazaki competed during the late 60's and early 70's and he was rated in the top 10. He resurfaced in the tournament circuit during the early 80's , again rated in the top 10.

    Ref. Champion kickboxer Paul Vizzio. Miyazaki influenced certain aspects of his training.

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