Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2
Results 16 to 19 of 19

Thread: Aikido Pacifists Defined

  1. #16
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    San Jose
    Posts
    272
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    That all sounds like a reasonable translation of my intent. By taking the structure, I don't necessarily mean destroy structure, only lead uke's balance away from the structure, rather than trying to go through their strength and, hence their structure.

    That is a good re-cap of what I'm afraid has become a bit of a nit-picking converstaion (on my part, I'm afraid- mea culpa)

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    26
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hello.

    I'm new to this forum but I wanted to respond to this thread. I read the article mentioned by TommyK and, while taken out of context, I also agree with this statement if you view aikido as a viable martial art(which I do).

    However, I want to suggest that if you manage to make it to the pin, you're way past the "point of impending doom" of your attacker, and you have already managed to SUCCESSFULLY choose non-violence.

    I think that the "moment of impending doom" happens when attacker/uke crosses ma'ai. For most of us this is when they have crossed ma'ai and are "reacting" to your attemi or presented had, but with the really accomplished practitioners, it's before the uke crosses ma'ai.

    I think it is relatively easy to learn how to maim and kill and almost as easy to chose non-violence(provided you don't mind getting your ass kicked), but it takes a serious spiritual depth to stand there on the line untill the "moment of impending doom" and then choose non-violence and be able to pull it off.

    I'm not trying to be Gung-Ho here, I don't view aikido as some killer matial art. It is a spiritual journey for me and even after twelve years of study, I have no illusinos as to the effectiveness (or lack thereof)of the techniques (glad it worked out for you Mikey, but I'm 5'6" on a good day and 140lbs. so I have to get it right the first time), I realize I probaply have 15-20 yaers 'till this is a reallity and that's OK, I'm not in a hurry, I just think that if I'm going to realize the full potential of aikido as an art, martial or otherwise, I have to look at this stuff honestly and objectivly.

    Respectfully,
    Tom Wharton

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Bellevue,WA USA
    Posts
    243
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Pins vs Immobilizations

    Originally posted by TomW
    Hello.
    However, I want to suggest that if you manage to make it to the pin, you're way past the "point of impending doom" of your attacker, and you have already managed to SUCCESSFULLY choose non-violence.
    Originally posted by TomW
    Hello.

    However, I want to suggest that if you manage to make it to the pin, you're way past the "point of impending doom" of your attacker, and you have already managed to SUCCESSFULLY choose non-violence.
    I would like to point out that Aikido isn't a "submission" fighting art. If you have had occasion to do Aikido with someone who is experienced in submission fighting, in which the opponent is either knocked out or submits because he is locked up in such a way that he must submit or be injured or choked out, you will know that in the majority of Aikido pins there is nothing that forces the opponent to tap out. If the opponent wants to really beat the pin he usually can eventually do so in most cases. A good ground fighter can work his way out if given enough time.

    Originally these pins were not "submission' type pins but were rather immobilizations that simply held the opponent down long enough to access your backup weapon and dispatch the attacker. This is represented in symbolic form in the older styles of Aikido by a knife hand strike after the pin has taken place. There are plenty of photos of O-Sensei himself ending his technique this way.

    There are some pins that seem to have the potential to lock an opponent up in such a way that he has to submit but in many cases if you really look at those pins and practice with a partner who really resists you will find that there are only two ways that you would get into the pin: a) you executed a locking technique or atemi that disabled the attacker before you applied the immobilization or b) the pin wasn't really a pin at all but was really a breaking technique that was executed very quickly and powerfully as a follow-up to the original takedown. If you try these techniques against a strong and experienced ground fighter you will find out that these techniques really can't be done the way we do them in class.

    The point I am trying to make is that much of what we take to be the non-violent nature of Aikido exists in the dojo but doesn't exist in the same way outside the dojo when real martial application is required.
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    26
    Likes (received)
    0

    Unhappy

    George.

    I believe you have miss-understood me. I'm not arguing the effectiveness or lack thereof of the pins. I'm suggesting that in order to have any option other than maiming/killing an attacker, we ought to focus on the beginning of the "technique", not the end.

    As you pointed out, the pins were originally ment to give you time to access your backup weapon and I agree. I also think that the original point of the "techniques" was to not have to pin anyone, but to deliver a maiming or killing blow as the attacker crossed ma'ai, and this allowed you the time to access a weapon, if necessary.

    It is this innitial blow that I'm talking about. In aikido we train to throw atemi and then slip this blow (atemi) past the lethal landing point and perform a "technique" on our uke and pin them untill they tap out. Furthermore, ukes are trained to react to these atemi, and this reaction is what allows us the time to complete the technique.

    This reaffirms the point you made about the non-violent nature of aikido existing in the dojo. It also reaffirms the point I'm trying to make: The attacker must react to the initial atemi, either before it lands, or after. The attacker reacting after it lands is too late, we have delivered a maiming/killing blow and defeated our purpose for studying aikido vs. another martial art. Making the attacker react before atemi lands is dificult at best (how many times have you pulled an atemi when working with a beginner?) and increadibly hard when faced with an attacker outside of the "agreement" of aikido in the dojo. It requires precision and must be a valid threat. Furthermore, to execute this atemi cleanly without tapping into anger takes a tremendous depth that only years of self-study can bring. Making an attacker react to the initial atemi before it lands is what I view as successfuly chosing non-violence.

    As to the pin, I think this only allows us to make a timely exit from the scene.

    Respoectfully,
    Tom Wharton

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 1 2

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 41
    Last Post: 14th March 2016, 14:14
  2. Decline of truly effective Aikido?
    By towag in forum Aikido
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 17th May 2007, 01:14
  3. Ueshiba-ha Aikibudo vs. Takeda-ha Aikibudo
    By Nathan Scott in forum Aikijujutsu
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 28th November 2000, 21:15

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •