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Thread: Kiyose Nakae

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    Default Kiyose Nakae

    Dear E-Budo members:

    What do you know about the biography of Kiyose Nakae, the man who produced the classic work, "Jiu Jitsu Complete." Was his style related to the now lost Kito-ryu jujutsu? or something else? It is a really wonderful book - and I'm just trying to figure out the lineage of his art.

    Thanks,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD

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    I can't answer your question, but I do wonder where you got the idea that Kito Ryu is "lost." I don't have it with me at work, but I've got the main dojo phone number and address at home in the Nihons Kobudo Soran. I also know that they have a Saturday afternoon practice in Tokyo where they get out the armor and do the kata in armor.

    Peter Boylan
    Mugendo Budogu LLC
    Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment From Japan
    http://www.budogu.com
    peter@budogu.com

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    Peter -

    Everything I have read on the subject (from Dreager, Skoss, etc.) has indicated that Kito-ryu pretty much died out after Jigoro Kano incorporated a lot of it in Kodokan Judo. Basically, the last soke died, and there was no one who really continued the art in its complete form. There were certainly people around who had studied Kito-ryu and continued to practice it, but I am not aware of a continuing Kito-ryu art. I will say, however, that I have heard of a Judo group somewhere in Japan that supposedly still practices Kito-ryu as a separate art. I don't know much about this, though.

    As far as the dojo you are referring to, I have no information on them. If they are a fully active dojo claiming to teach classical Kito-ryu jujutsu, then I think that would be a very interesting and important discovery. I would certainly be interested in learning who their sensei is, who he learned from, and what level of transmission he received in the art. Someone teaching Kito-ryu who did not receive full transmission would not constitute a living koryu. I am sure, however, that koryu researchers with far more knowledge than myself (Mr. Skoss, for instance), would be very interested in learning about them as well.

    Please fill me in on the details, or whatever you know about them.

    Thanks,
    Sincerely,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD

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    This is a legitimate group. The Nihon Kobudo Soran is published by one of the major koryu organizations (the correct name slips my memory just now). It's hardly a discovery. The information in the NKS comes from the programs of various big enbu that the groups have taken part in. Just because the English speaking world doesn't know about doesn't mean it's not there.

    Peter Boylan

  5. #5
    Don Cunningham Guest

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    I'll have to admit that everything I heard or read about Kito-Ryu indicated it was an extinct art. The recent biography of Kano even implies the art was not being passed on when Kano created judo from it.

    Well, you learn something new everyday.

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    First, if they are a legitimate group, then they will have legitimate credentials. Right? Can you tell me what relationship they have to the lineage of Kito-ryu masters/grandmasters? Who is their sensei? Who did he learn from? How much transmission did he receive? I appreciate the authority you cite, but this doesn't provide any details. I am not saying that you, or the NKS, is wrong. I am saying that the fact that they are listed may not be the whole story. For example, everybody assumed they knew the real history/lineage of aikido up until the mid-1980's, when it became increasingly evident that the commonly accepted history was a) wrong, or b) vey incomplete. Martial artists today tend to be so defensive about questions regarding lineage and authority that they resist serious and critical inquiry into the details and complexities of history. I am merely saying that given the information that does exist regarding the Kito-ryu, I would like more information, so that I can become more educated. If you can't provide it, just say so. I can refer to the NKS myself.

    Second, I don't think an art like Kito-ryu, which is probably only the second most generically well-known classical jujutsu system next to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu for its influence on Judo (who still retain some of their kata), would be somehow suddenly unknown to the "english-speaking world." (And btw, most of the best martial arts researchers both read and speak Japanese, have spent extensive time in Japan, and probably know more about koryu arts than most Japanese).

    So rather than argue about the legitimacy of this group, I would like 1) more detailed info on them, and/or 2) back to my original topic, any bio info on Kiyose Nakae. I'm not looking for an argument. Just info.

    Sincerely,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD
    Last edited by Arman; 5th October 2001 at 22:47.

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    Originally posted by Arman
    Second, I don't think an art like Kito-ryu, which is probably only the second most generically well-known classical jujutsu system next to Tenjin Shinyo-ryu for its influence on Judo (who still retain some of their kata), would be somehow suddenly unknown to the "english-speaking world." (And btw, most of the best martial arts researchers both read and speak Japanese, have spent extensive time in Japan, and probably know more about koryu arts than most Japanese).
    I can't comment specifically on Kito-ryu, but there are a lot of small groups floating around Japan that are virtually unknown in the English-speaking world, which is probably what Peter meant. For that matter there are a lot of small groups that are virtually unknown in Japan until you start looking around. A large part of it is that the number of professional dojo in Japan is extremely small, so a lot of the groups that you find are essentially small neighborhood gatherings - although sometimes you might be surprised what traditions are being preserved by the guy down the block :-).

    Best,

    Chris

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    Hi Arman,

    Well, as nice as Draeger's and the Skoss's books are, I'd hardly consider them definitive. The existence of this particular line of Kito Ryu is no secret, and, like many ryuha, since Kito Ryu doesn't use a soke/iemoto system, there are numerous lines of transmission, and a number of these continue to thrive.

    The fact that nothing is known about these ryuha outside of Japan isn't surprising. ALL classical budo are pretty much unknown INSIDE Japan as well. Most Japanese have no interest in budo, and think practicing it is weird.

    I realize that there isn't any information on Kito Ryu in English, but there is plenty in Japanese. The Nihon Kobudo Soran shows this particular group's lineage coming down throught the Noda and Yoshida branches of Kito Ryu. OF course, the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten lists seven extant lines of Kito Ryu (and remeber that while the BRD is an excellent resource, it's not definitive for modern schools, since it hasn't been updated in roughly 20 years, so there are plenty of new branches and menkyo kaiden that aren't listed.

    This branch is based in Okayama, and the teacher (whose kanji I can't figure out a pronunciation for) studied under Nagaoka, who studied under Noda, whose father was a contemporary of Kano's but in a different dojo.

    The truth is that there still is almost no accurate information about koryu in any language except Japanese. Draeger's books are a nice start, and so are Skoss's, but they are barely even an introduction to the mass of literature in Japanese, or better yet, just going and talking to some of these folks in Japan (most of the ones I've talked with are very open and happy to chat, if you speak Japanese of course).

    Peter Boylan
    Mugendo Budogu LLC
    Fine Martial Arts Books, Videos, Clothing and Equipment from Japan
    http://www.budogu.com
    peter@budogu.com

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    Friends,

    I have tried to find Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu schools/ legitimately credentialed people in the USA without success..

    Under the United States Jujutsu Federation there are two men who list credentials in Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu and KITORYU JUJUTSU.....

    Mr. Bruce Bethers 8th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
    7 degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu

    Mr. Charles Voerster 6th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
    6th degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu



    Maybe someone would like to contact them about KITORYU JUJUTSU..... I cannot get an answer about credentials and TRUE affiliation with Japan....Could be that my e mail didn't go through...

    Simple question: Did you study under a credentialed and legitimate Kitoryu instructor who is affiliated with a respectable Kitoryu Jujutsu Hombu or organization in Japan ?
    How can that be verified ?


    Hope this helps


    Barry E. Southam

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    Peter,

    Thanks for the info. That provides a nice starting point for further research. Of course, the really difficult part is sorting out historical mythology from historical fact - ESPECIALLY when we are talking about Japanese martial arts.

    Chris,

    Very true. Which, unfortunately, is why so many koryu have died out, or are dying out. A master teaches only a small group of students, doesn't allow foreigners to train, and then dies unexpectadly before transmitting the art to a successor. Another dead koryu. It's a shame, really.

    Anyway, I wonder why no one seems able to gather any info about Kiyose Nakae's training? I've tried to research it, but there is not a lot out there. Very interesting.

    Thanks,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD

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    Originally posted by Arman
    Very true. Which, unfortunately, is why so many koryu have died out, or are dying out. A master teaches only a small group of students, doesn't allow foreigners to train, and then dies unexpectadly before transmitting the art to a successor. Another dead koryu. It's a shame, really.
    There are very very few places these days that won't allow foreigners to train.

    Koryu dying out? Well, these things always go through cycles - I think that, in general, koryu are doing pretty well these days.

    Best,

    Chris

  12. #12
    Yamantaka Guest

    Cool WHERE'S THE INFORMATION???

    Originally posted by Arman
    Anyway, I wonder why no one seems able to gather any info about Kiyose Nakae's training? I've tried to research it, but there is not a lot out there. Very interesting.
    Thanks,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD
    YAMANTAKA : It's almost impossible to get any information in Japan about Jujutsu and Judo in the XIX Century and the first years of the XX century. A big "black hole". Recently I asked for information about Sampo Toku (or Toku Sampo) and it has been impossible to get any answers. And Sampo Toku was one of the greatest judoka of his time, considered to be almost the equal of Kyuzo Mifune and the first teacher of Minoru Mochizuki Sensei, of Yoseikan Budo fame. Mitsuyo Maeda, another great kodokan men, was almost forgotten and has only begun to be studied because of his connection with Gracie Jujutsu.
    There is some information in japanese but even so it's scarce, since contrary to what we believe, japanese are not very much interested in martial arts.
    But I sure hope you get some information.
    Best

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    Chris,

    I don't believe that koryu in general is dying out. Compare, however, the state of what we call koryu today with that of 100-150 years ago. Historical research has indicated that thousands of traditional ryu existed up to the meiji period, and far more if you go back only a little further into Japan's history. After meiji, they started dying out by the hordes. Many have survived, some even thrived. But it is an unfortunate and inescapable fact that koryu today is a poor representation of what used to be. There are many factors: meiji restoration and the end of the samurai, the rise of the modern state, WWII and its aftermath, and the popularity of modern budo.

    In any event, I didn't mean to suggest that koryu arts overall are endangered specimens. Only that many small, little known koryu will continue to die off while other, more widely practiced and better preserved koryu, will continue to thrive (if you can call it that when compared to the modern budo). Of course, a koryu can only maintain its classical integrity by limiting, to some extent, the spread of a ryu's knowledge. So, I guess it is a fine balancing act.

    Best,

    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Baltimore, MD

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    Barry wrote:

    Friends,

    I have tried to find Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu schools/ legitimately credentialed people in the USA without success..

    Under the United States Jujutsu Federation there are two men who list credentials in Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu and KITORYU JUJUTSU.....

    Mr. Bruce Bethers 8th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
    7 degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu

    Mr. Charles Voerster 6th degree KITORYU JUJUTSU
    6th degree Tenshinshinyoryu Jujutsu
    --------------------------------------------------

    If someone is using Dan-grades for Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu it has nothing to do with the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu which Kano practised. They do not use the Dan-ranking system.

    Best regards,
    Tommy

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    If someone is using Dan-grades for Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu it has nothing to do with the Tenjin Shinyo-ryu and Kito-ryu which Kano practised. They do not use the Dan-ranking system.

    Best regards,
    Tommy
    Hard to say - a number of traditional schools have adopted kyu/dan rankings since Kano's time.

    Best,

    Chris

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