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Thread: Kiyose Nakae

  1. #31
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    Smile Kito Kyu and Evolution

    I am a Kito Ryu Pratitioner in Australia. We are about as close as your gonna get to the real deal as the chool dates back 30 years plus in Australia. What I would say however, is that Koryu forms are not static and never have been. If you research them they have changed over the centuries as new masters and students added and extracted interpretations. It's just that they mave stayed closer to the core principles and essence of the arts and maintained a propotion of key technical applications which date back. There is nothing wrong with evolution for without it even the famed Koryu would not have survived as long as they did have.

    The interesting thing about Koryu is the elemental forms and core principles these are the things that need to be studied understood and preserved. If I look at Kano I think he did an honorable thing, he took the core and essence of many arts and distilled them into the Kodakan which in itself is jujitsu as did O'Sensei with Aikido. Look at the principles of Ju and Aiki and understand the principles of breaking balance and human movement.

    I love the pure forms of which Kito Ryu is one but I also understand that what I do now is probably as far removed from it's original state as Judo or Aikido is. That said the Koryu has many demensions and half the pleasure of learning the art is coming to a self realisation with ones self on it's application.

    I am ranked as a shodan and i can honestly say that I learnt more in the 18 months I was preparing for that rank then I had in the previous 5 years learning. One of the biggest things I learned was I know about 5% of what I can know about how to apply the technique with effect using pure Aiki making the art part of my body like another arm. Not to think but to be instinctive. I probably will never acheive this goal to my statisfaction but I'll have fun trying.

    I guess what I am saying is that there is no room for nostalgia, we learn from the past, understanding the present and create the future it's as personal a journey as life itself. I enjoy chewing the fat and discussing the differences and essences of all arts but don't get too hung up on the mystery and the personalities they are fun to look at and admire but you need to cut to the core and get something out of the research that has pratical application. That maybe thinking a different way or moving a different way or understaning a principle more fully. This will make you a really good martial artist.

    I will say this though Judoka can get a great deal from a study of older systems as I find that sometimes the essence has been distorted and become less effective overtime.

    Have fun with it! I will get that web site up ad running.

    Cheers,

    Donald Taylor

  2. #32
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    Nice post.

    Amdur's "Renovation and Innovation in Tradition" essay in his very worthwhile book "Old School" touches on similair points in regard to koryu not being static in nature.

    Interesting perspectives.
    Matthew Rogers
    Scarborough Martial Arts Training Group
    http://www.spiritforging.com

  3. #33
    Finny Guest

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    Mr Taylor,

    You mentioned that your dojo is affiliated with the Kito Ryu hombu in Japan - do you know where the hombu is and who runs it? Is the Kito Ryu a member of any of the major koryu organisations in Japan (kobudo kyokai, shinkokai)?

    I'd be very interested to see some Kito Ryu kata, it sounds like an amazing art from what I've read.

    Regards,

    Brendan

  4. #34
    MarkF Guest

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    I will say this though Judoka can get a great deal from a study of older systems as I find that sometimes the essence has been distorted and become less effective overtime.
    A grand oversimplification as per usual with someone with little time invested. In 42 years I haven't found this to be true at all. This is your experience, not mine. Please do not pretend to speak for me.


    Mark

  5. #35
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    Default Address correction

    For those interested in the Kito Ryu Hombu tape Mugendo can be found here.

    http://budogu.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page41.html

    Sorry (especially to Peter!) about the incorrect site address earlier.
    Matthew Rogers
    Scarborough Martial Arts Training Group
    http://www.spiritforging.com

  6. #36
    Mukeido Guest

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    I am a Kito Ryu Pratitioner in Australia. We are about as close as your gonna get to the real deal as the school dates back 30 years plus in Australia.
    Your school is not listed on Daniel Lee's site for Koryu in OZ. http://www.geocities.com/koryu-bujutsu/dojoguide.html

    Why don't you contact Daniel (mailto:daniel_cs_lee@yahoo.co.jp) and see about listing your school? Funny that he somehow missed your group?!

  7. #37
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    Default I would like to knwo your opion mark

    This is your experience, not mine. Please do not pretend to speak for me.


    Mark[/QUOTE]

    Yep it is my opinion and there is no suggestion that it is your experinece. I don't speak for you and have never tried too. So the point I think you're trying to make is? That you disagree with me as your experinece does not support my comment. Fair call and no issue!

    What are your thoughts on the issue obviously you have vast experinece. I know and I am sure others would be interested on your take on many things. I am suprised how defensive your post is. I am not an expert but a seeker from the research I have done I formulate opinions and thoughts these are my own and they are up for grabs. I truly am interseted in your deeper thoughts and feelings on anything.

    I have learned agreat deal from the Judoka I know and I personally think Kano a genius.

    Anyway if you're upset with my postings please let me know I will stop participating.

    To others I will look at the geocity lisiting and we are working on a web site. I will dig up the detail (all my stuff is in storage so bare with me) and email to those interested parties.

    Cheers,

    Donald Taylor

  8. #38
    Mekugi Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by kitodon
    I am a Kito Ryu Pratitioner in Australia. We are about as close as your gonna get to the real deal as the school dates back 30 years plus in Australia.
    Donald Taylor
    What group are you affiliated with in Japan? As in, are you still linked to a group in Japan?

  9. #39
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    This is a interesting topic my father was a direct student of professor Nakae he trained with him for many years in NYC and later in Toronto and at CFB Pettawawa Ont .
    In the mid 50's Professor Nakae and my dad trained often on only a couple tatami's in his newyork apt.

    My dad introduced professor nakae to the Toronto police dept. and sponcered seminars at the above mentioned military base .

    Professor nakae moved to Toronto Canada where he was involved in teaching "goshinjutsu" programs at many comunity centres and specialized training for police and military personal rather than the traditional dojo he organized in his younger days .

    His influence on canadian jujutsu is without question , We were always told that we were learning Kito ryu Jujutsu , many of the dojo's established in canada are based on the teaching of professor nakae .

    In edmonton AB 2 schools are derived from students 1. the Dojo of Sensi Kevin George and now his son Robin 2 the dojo of Charles Scott SR and now charles jr.

    In ontario I think you find all the old timers will offer insight into Professor Nakae on the influence of most of the modern Dojo's " can Ryu , Milton etc

    I will ask my dad for some pictures infact I beleave my father has a origional blade that he was gifted by professor nakae in the late 60's .

    charles

  10. #40
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    Here is a link about Duke moore another pioneer that trained with Professor nakae .
    http://www.kobukaijujitsu.com/DukeMoore.html

    Here is more info on kito ryu and Nakae's influence in the early development of jujutsu in North america
    http://www.yotsumedojo.com/Bujinkan%...yu/kitoryu.htm
    Last edited by Charles_1; 28th June 2007 at 05:53.

  11. #41
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    Many of you from the east coast will relize that professor Vee was a major influence in the newyork scene in many many ways I know this drifts from classical Budo but here is more influence that nakae Sensi had in the development of jujutsu in its many forms today .
    http://members.aol.com/QuadArts/MrVee.htm

    It is important to keep in focus that Sensi Nakae Taught classical Kito Ryu jujutsu to his private Students and the tradition of the Ryu-ha as it was presented is still preserved in the Dojo's of a few of us today .

    Charles Scott

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_1
    This is a interesting topic my father was a direct student of professor Nakae he trained with him for many years in NYC and later in Toronto and at CFB Pettawawa Ont .
    In the mid 50's Professor Nakae and my dad trained often on only a couple tatami's in his newyork apt.

    My dad introduced professor nakae to the Toronto police dept. and sponcered seminars at the above mentioned military base .

    Professor nakae moved to Toronto Canada where he was involved in teaching "goshinjutsu" programs at many comunity centres and specialized training for police and military personal rather than the traditional dojo he organized in his younger days .

    His influence on canadian jujutsu is without question , We were always told that we were learning Kito ryu Jujutsu , many of the dojo's established in canada are based on the teaching of professor nakae .

    In edmonton AB 2 schools are derived from students 1. the Dojo of Sensi Kevin George and now his son Robin 2 the dojo of Charles Scott SR and now charles jr.

    In ontario I think you find all the old timers will offer insight into Professor Nakae on the influence of most of the modern Dojo's " can Ryu , Milton etc

    I will ask my dad for some pictures infact I beleave my father has a origional blade that he was gifted by professor nakae in the late 60's .

    charles
    Charles, can you expand on the influence of Nakae on Can-ryu and Milton,etc.?
    Cris Anderson

    All my best ideas were stolen by the Ancients.

  13. #43
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    No I am sorry I can not speak for can ryu or milton , I was actually quoting my father who says that he is sure that Nakae had some influence on the development of these schools , he suggests that if asked these schools might add to the historical information on Nakae and his influence on Jujutsu in Canada and the eastern USA .

    When Nakae sensi was teaching few others were. In Cumberland BC There was Ronald Wantanabe although his dojo was pretty much closed to Japanese students after the politics of internment camps in the area although some of his teachings did filter into non japanese dojo's in the military .

    Nakae Sensi had alot of influence on early dojo's period .

    Charles
    Charles Scott

  14. #44
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    Default The Never-ending Nakae Question

    Nakae constantly comes up on E-budo, about once or twice a year, and it would be great if somebody could do some research and satisfy so many people's curiosity. I think there is so much interest in Nakae because he taught many Westerners who went on to form their own modern jujutsu systems which many of us practice today. It will always strike me as strange that so many people trained with him back "in the day" but nobody thought to ask where he learned what he was teaching and who is instructors were. The founder of my style of jujitsu, Duke Moore, took private lessons with Nakae in NYC in 1944. When Duke asked Nakae what he was teaching, Nakae replied, "self-defense". I don't think Duke pushed it anymore.

    But I just can't believe nobody knows. Assuming he has no family in North America, at the least, there must be immigration records somewhere, so somebody must be able to trace him back to Japan and at least figure out where he emigrated from. That would be a huge starting point.

    I always wonder if maybe he didn't want to publicize the style he was teaching, perhaps because he had some conflict with his instructor ... perhaps for teaching foreigners. I know that was a big deal back in post-WWII era. Maybe Nakae had a falling out with those with whom he trained back in Japan and hence not allowed to officially teach whatever art it was he had learned, so he was mum about it. Or maybe he figured Westerners wouldn't understand or care about his jujutsu lineage anyway (and apparently, back at that time at least, he would have been right, since I can't believe nobody bothered to grill him on it!).


    Quote Originally Posted by Charles_1
    This is a interesting topic my father was a direct student of professor Nakae he trained with him for many years in NYC and later in Toronto and at CFB Pettawawa Ont .
    In the mid 50's Professor Nakae and my dad trained often on only a couple tatami's in his newyork apt.

    My dad introduced professor nakae to the Toronto police dept. and sponcered seminars at the above mentioned military base .

    Professor nakae moved to Toronto Canada where he was involved in teaching "goshinjutsu" programs at many comunity centres and specialized training for police and military personal rather than the traditional dojo he organized in his younger days .

    His influence on canadian jujutsu is without question , We were always told that we were learning Kito ryu Jujutsu , many of the dojo's established in canada are based on the teaching of professor nakae .

    In edmonton AB 2 schools are derived from students 1. the Dojo of Sensi Kevin George and now his son Robin 2 the dojo of Charles Scott SR and now charles jr.

    In ontario I think you find all the old timers will offer insight into Professor Nakae on the influence of most of the modern Dojo's " can Ryu , Milton etc

    I will ask my dad for some pictures infact I beleave my father has a origional blade that he was gifted by professor nakae in the late 60's .

    charles
    This is interesting information which I haven't heard before. Definitely please post any pictures you might have. Also, do you have any contact info for the Canadian clubs you speak about and who might know more about Nakae? There are many here he would be interested in that ....
    Jonathan Dirrenberger
    Stanford Jujitsu Club

  15. #45
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    My father is in Alberta so I can not just pop over and raid his photo's I know he has many pictures of nakae sensi and several other Nakae student like Mike Pasquali sr. etc etc

    I feel from talking to Dad that you may have hit the nail on the head the japanese did not like Jujutsu being taught to non japanese .

    In cumberland BC there were several Dojo's and jujutsu was practised in the internment camp , the camp still exisits today in memory of the opression that was placed on japanese canadians I was just there 2 days ago the memorial is beautiful infact I would like to train in the park there .

    My father also aserts that very little information existed on differnt ryu-ha that jujutsu was new and exotic and the students were just gratefull to have the ability to be trained .

    It was not untill much later that information was avalable about different schools , they looked at it like boxing .

    My father is not computor savy I will ask my mom to find and scan some pictures of Nakae Sensi for interest sake I will ask her to scan some pictures of montreals early Savate club also .

    Very interesting topic
    SIncerely Charles Scott
    Charles Scott

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