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Thread: TEXT: Sword mountings and style of combat of the Satsuma Forces

  1. #16
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    Thanks for the clarifications Hyaku-san.

    When you say "1.8", is that in shaku? I've been converting everything into inches so that comparison would be easier.

    As far as the John Stevens translation, I thought that he might be referring to "yanagi gawa" (willow river), but noticed that Yanagigawa is also a family name. It is good to know that Yanagigawa and Yanagawa are the same thing though.

    BTW, I meant to add a link to your article on Kage ryu battojutsu on the koryu.com site:

    Kage ryu battojutsu

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #17
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    Default Re: How big is yours?

    Originally posted by Nathan Scott

    From what I've seen, it would seem that many exponents from Kyushu (Tosa, Satsuma, Choshu) preferred longer blades/hilts, for whatever reason.
    CONCLUSION

    Nathan,

    I just wanted to point out that Tosa is in Shikoku, not Kyushu.

    Regards,
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  3. #18
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    Choshu isn't in Kyushu either, AFAIK.
    Earl Hartman

  4. #19
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    Yup Earl is right, Choshu is in Southern Honshu..almost Kyushu, but not quite.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  5. #20
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    Default Duh...

    Thanks for the corrections guys. My fingers got away from me - I tend to type as fast as I think, and sometimes something doesn't come out right.

    For the sake of others reading (and probably confused now):

    1) Satsuma - now called Kagoshima prefecture, Southern Kyushu.

    2) Tosa - now called Kochi prefecture, on Shikoku island just north of Kyushu.

    3) Choshu - now called Yamaguchi prefecture, located just north of Kyushu on the Southern tip of the main island of Honshu.

    I guess my mind was still thinking about the Satuma Rebellion. Thanks for keeping me in line!

    PS. I edited the original post to reflect this correction. Are you guys still reading the first post? There are lots more after that...



    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #21
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    Default jigen ryu, the ryu that keeps on going...

    Hyakutake san had an interesting comment re: his take on the Jigen-ryu.

    I saw a couple of videotapes of their demos, and a lengthier piece on the ryu and the current headmaster of one of the Jigen-ryu branches. After seeing how those Satsuma guys (now Kyushu) practiced, I could very well imagine how some Tokugawa loyalists were reported to have retreated as soon as they saw the Jigen-ryu guys running towards them on the battlefield. Yes, diapers necessary. There's something to be said about looking like a flaming maniac and being ready to whack the bejeezus out of someone come hell or high water that would put fear in the heart of an opponent.

    One friend said, "Boy, those guys look scary, but I wouldn't be interested in studying the ryu because it's so...uh, CRUDE looking..."

    Another friend salivated and said, "YEAH! That's the kind of sword style I want to study!"

    Different strokes, literally, for different folks.

    Wayne Muromoto

  7. #22
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    Hey. If you can scare the guy enough so that he either soils himself or runs away, who needs technique?

    "Technique? Technique? I don't gotta show you no steenkin' technique!"
    Earl Hartman

  8. #23
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    Default crazy men with weapons

    The Celts were said to be that way, Bezerker rage on the battlefield can carry a battle if you aren't ready for it.
    Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow...
    ...that's what makes my thumper go

  9. #24
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    Cutting to the "Three Thousandth Level of Hell" maybe be crude looking, but those folk down in Kagoshima understand hatsu tachi...

    Antonio Cobb

  10. #25
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    Hi guys,

    I was just re-reading this thread, and was curious what you all thought about something.

    Previously, I cited some stuff from Tesshu (snipped):

    "From ancient times, the standard sword length has been set at ten hand-breadths. In the past, swordsmen followed this standard approach and all schools used bamboo swords ten hand-breadths or less in length."

    "..Because hardly anyone is aware of traditional standards, the use of excessively long swords is now the custom. This lack of study and proper knowledge is indeed lamentable."
    James mentioned in his reply:

    My personal feelings is that in the ancient days there was no real standard of length or proportion.
    What do ya'll think about Tesshu's statement? He is very clear about his feelings - did the bushi really respect these lengths and proportions?
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #26
    Michael Powell Guest

    Smile John Lindsey Article

    [/FONT][B][FONT=Palatino Linotype]
    I do not doubt the truth of anything that you have written and would even concurr a point by adding the fact that Menuki origionally started as a covering for the Mekugi or pin. Pins break and those that are not inclined to check are better off with the new style of Menuki decorations.

    As for tree wackers; while I am also sure this is true and further the notion in consideration of Helmut Splitting as a sword technique, I find all too often too many people are overbearing in their interest in the Big Cut. The Lone Wolf and Cubb splitting a standing body in two. This to me is like the amature Chess Player always chasing after mate and spurnning the simple win of material or the endgame.

    Take a look at Hayashizaki Ryu; the Father of Iaido often used in some kata Kirioroshi to merely cut hands! Or consider the eye witness reports from the Ikeda Raid by the Shinsengumi. There reporters spoke of 6 inch disks from skulls, and fatal Kesa-gaeke cuts , ie. cuts from the shoulder all the way across the chest, not through it. Even if you look carefully at most advanced Tosa Ha, Gaishi is the bead & butter finishing cut. The point of the latter is not just deadly but quicker than Kirioroshi and easier to backup with a second.

    After all it does not matter if you drown in 5 feet of water or 500 , the end result is still death!

  12. #27
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    [QUOTE=Michael Powell]As for tree wackers; while I am also sure this is true and further the notion in consideration of Helmut Splitting as a sword technique, I find all too often too many people are overbearing in their interest in the Big Cut. The Lone Wolf and Cubb splitting a standing body in two. This to me is like the amature Chess Player always chasing after mate and spurnning the simple win of material or the endgame.[QUOTE]

    I must say that the notion that Jigen Ryu is simply about whacking trees is clearly unresearched, and utterly incorrect.

    Your comments are close to derogatory.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  13. #28
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    HI

    I won a satsuma mounted Chisa Katana.

    The Saya is leather wrapped (completely) with a think coat of black Lacquer over the leather, with a metal Kojiri. The Koguchi has a metal band around the outside. There is a slot for a Kodzuka but that is lost.

    The Tsuba is Moko style in made form lacquered leather with a mon on it.

    Tsuka is plan wood lacquered in black, with very simple and plain (cheaply made) fuchi and kashira.

    The original Tsuka Ito is missing but you can see the impression left by a washer menuki on both sides. The Tsuka ito also left an impression and was of the single continuous length from fuchi to kashira.

    Tsuka length is 9 inch (23 cm)
    Blade length - 21 inch (51cm)
    Overall (kojiri to Kashira) - 31.5 inch (80cm)
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

  14. #29
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    I reccomend a book called Satsuma Koshirae ( 薩摩拵 ) by Zushyou Ichirou ( 調所一郎 )

    Characteristically Satsuma swords had fairly small tsuba, fairly large fuchi, and longish tsuka. Noticably the sori is quite mild on many of the blades pictured. However there are examples where a deep sori is present.

    The Shimadzu Maru Ju kamon is visible on many examples. Having said this, that kamon is still present all over Kagoshima today. It is on almost every manhole cover, many shop signs, almost every jinja, and is represented in the modern day logo for Kagoshima city ( a reshaping of the kanji for city 市 )

    There is also a section on both styles of Jigen Ryu present in Kagoshima.

    I have also heard that many swords were thrown into Kinko bay after the second world war as to prevent occupying forces from taking them away. Its a shame that the ocean would have eaten them up so readily.

    Kagoshima people are very proud of the heritage of the city. Although they maintain a strong sense of being different from the rest of Japan, they have contributed an enourmous amount to the modern development of Japan.

    Aside from the contribution to the downfall of the Tokugawa bakufu, and the subsequent Satsuma rebellion Kagoshima created many modernisations for Japan.

    Satsuma was the richest province in Japan in the 1800's and as such represented itself as an independant nation at the Paris world exposition.

    They even waged a short war against the then mighty British Empire.

    Students from Kagoshima travelled to the UK and America to study Western technology and ideas. Kanaye Nagasawa, a child genius, even became a pioneer of wine production in West coast America!

    The first factory in Japan was the Shuseikan in Kagoshima. The first telephone call in Japan was made from Tsurumaru Castle to a nearby garden by Shimadzu Nakiakira. Later he installed a telephone in the Shuseikan and his private house at Seigan En.

    Kagoshima also developed the pioneering ship Shohei Maru. Its flag later became the Hinomaru.

    Sorry I drifted into a brief foray of Kagoshima pride there, but I assure you I have recoved now.
    Alex Bradshaw

    bradshaw.jp

  15. #30
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    hey Alex, did you ever get a set of the local koshirae we discussed a while ago? I managed to pick up a lovely small iron tsuba last trip, so would like something to match... a photo will do to help me out...
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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