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View Poll Results: Can you kill a human being if needed?

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  • Yes

    194 89.40%
  • No

    23 10.60%
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Thread: Can you Kill?

  1. #31
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    Originally posted by Kimpatsu


    There's the logical fallacy again; gouging out the eyes is not the only way to stop an agressor. A simple poke will do as well; you don't have to leave someone blinded to protect yourself.
    I'm off to spontaneously combust, now
    Best,
    Hi Tony-

    We don't disagree that much, because I totally second the idea that killing or maiming someone should be about the very last thing you would want to employ in self defence.

    However, the idea that it is *never* necessary to stop an aggressor I would disagree with.

    I can conceive of situations where it might be the only way to be sure that a threat to your life or that of your familly was ended. As a rule of thumb, I believe that if someone tried to kill me, then I would feel justified in responding in kind.

    (Incidentally, it's fine detail, but I suspect that if someone is pumped up, drunk or on drugs then just a 'poke' to the eyes will *not* stop them- they'd probably carry on coming at you as long as they could see you and move after you. Hence the need to either run like hell or mount an attack that destroys their physical capacity to cause you harm i.e injure their knees etc.)

    The really interesting thing about this thread to me is that the vast majority of people, as Don says, can intellectually prepare themselves for the idea of needing to kill and sometimes even romanticise it, but could they do it? My answer to the poll would have been 'I don't know'- because until I'm in that situation, I have no idea how I would behave.

    Don's point about the unconscious preventing actions that the person has rationally decided on seems very important as well.
    Last edited by Ruairi Quinn; 1st November 2001 at 22:06.

  2. #32
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    I took the poll and said "Yes". I must agree 100% that there would no doubt be emotions (Anger, guilt, etc.) that I may very well need help dealing with after taking another life. I hope that I never have to find out how to deal with such things.

    However I must respectfully disagree that I am taking away someone's chances to reform themselves. I would like to think that if it were a choice between my wife's life, my daughter's life, my life OR someone that was trying do kill any one of us, that person isn't going to get a chance to reform while they throw dirt on top of our graves. No bravado here....just a deep and abiding love for family and for life.

    I dislike the thought of having to take another human life....It's nearly the most awful thing I can imagine....next to someone doing the same to my family. I train in Iaido and Kenjtutsu. I do it not only for personal growth, but to some extent I do it to keep the knowledge alive....and I have always been fascinated with the Japanese culture. I have no romantic thoughts that I am a samurai or some all powerful warrior. I do think it does help prepare me in some way for a violent confrontation....though I would never take a sword to a gunfight as it were.

    When I first began my training, there was a quadruple murder here where I live. The "home entry" occurred at 11:30 PM in a "nice" neighborhood. There were 5 people asleep in the house. Two couples (2 men and 2 women) and another man. Two men broke into the house and over the next several hours, some awful things took place. One man had a knife and the other a gun. One man took each victim, one at a time, and made them drive to the ATM to withdraw money, while the other man kept the remaining four at the house. These men forced the victims to do sex acts with each other and on themselves. The stripped the five people and loaded them into one of the victim's pickup trucks. They told them they were going to take them to the country and leave them there so they could get away. They said they would not kill them. When they arrived on the outskirts of town, they walked them in the snow, completely naked, to a ditch on the side of the road. They made them kneel in the snow, and one by one they shot them execution style in the back of the head. After that, the two men got in the truck and ran the five people over to make sure they were dead.

    One of the women survived the gunshot as it ricocheted off of her skull. When she saw them get in the truck she burrowed herself into the snow as she thought they were going to run her over. She "played" dead and she lived to testify against the two animals that did this to her fiancé and friends.

    Why am I mentioning this story you may ask? I mention it because I found it to be very sad that not one of the victims ever did anything to save themselves. I know there was a lot of head games going on....being stripped naked...being assaulted....being demeaned....being promised that they wouldn't be killed. I would never presume to put myself in their positions and judge them hindsight. But after this crime...and incidents on Sept. 11 when the hijackers said the passengers would not be harmed and that they were just diverting the planes....well....it's a sick world out there. I hope that if faced with any life or death situation that I would have the presence of mind to make a split second decision to save my life or the life of those I care about. That is why I voted "YES" in the poll...and why I hope I never have to find out if I am right.

    That's my two cents....

    Regards,

    Matthew

  3. #33
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Dear Matthew,
    I would like to think that if it were a choice between my wife's life, my daughter's life, my life OR someone that was trying do kill any one of us, that person isn't going to get a chance to reform while they throw dirt on top of our graves. No bravado here....just a deep and abiding love for family and for life.
    Once again, the logical fallacy. Killing is not the only way to stay safe.
    Best,

  4. #34
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    Dear Tony,

    Please let me elaborate as I did not do so in my first post. I do not want to kill anyone if I do not have to. If I had the options of:

    1. Leaving the situation
    2. Subduing/restraining/incapacitating the assailant

    I would choose either of those in a heartbeat rather than take someone's life. I was merely stating that in a life and death situation if there were NO other recourse save taking a person's life or have mine or my loved one's taken, than my personal choice is very clear.

    Respectfully,

    Matthew

  5. #35
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    Post Hmmm

    Hi Tony-

    My logic classes were quite a while ago, but :
    I don't believe the idea that taking your opponent's life *could* conceivably be the only way to preserve your own is in any way at all a logical fallacy. (As I said in my post above). If you think it is, please explain.

  6. #36
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default

    Hi, Folks.
    I feel like the little Dutch boy plugging the dyke with his finger with this one.
    To Matthew: Could you give me an example where killing was the only option? Why would incapacitation not work, but killing work?
    To Ruari: The following is listed from the Index of Logical Fallacies, at http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/toc.htm
    Definition:

    A limited number of options (usually two) is given, while in reality there are more options. A false dilemma is an illegitimate use of the "or" operator.
    Putting issues or opinions into "black or white" terms is a common instance of this fallacy.

    Examples:
    Either you're for me or against me.
    America: love it or leave it.
    Either support Meech Lake or Quebec will separate.
    Every person is either wholly good or wholly evil.

    In other words, the moment you introduce the operand, you've committed a logical fallacy.
    HTH,

  7. #37
    Sgathak Guest

    Default

    Ok Tony... lets quit argueing semantics... which is what this is. Everyone trying to get around everyone elses word play. Logical fallacy or not I dont see any Vulcans here so making an argument based solely on what is or is not correct logical word useage is just annoying for all of us, including you "little dutch boy".

    The original question is CAN you kill? not will you, not would you like to, not is it logical... Can you!

    Lets ass-ume for a second that you DID kill someone... could you live with it? could you do it? are you physically and emotionally able to do it?

    if not the answer is "no" and you move on. If you could, then the answer is "yes", and you move on... if the answer is "i dont know" then you dont know if your capable of doing it and you move on... argueing wether or not its logical doesnt really enter the equation... Unless you have pointy ears, or have some sort of reason to illogically keep this conversation going? An egotistical need to feel superior to your more barbaric peers perhaps?

    Careful! think it over before you answer...


    J Robbins

  8. #38
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Live Long and Prosper

    Sgathak,
    Logic is the only tool we have for framing arguments. I already know I'm in the minority on this issue, because of the poll at the top; so far, only two other people have agreed with me. If I felt morally superior, I would say so. I'm continuing to post in answer to questions, and hypotheses, directed at me (people put my name in the tag line). People's responses to the original question have been framed as "kill or be killed," and all I'm attempting to do is point out that logically -there's that word again- the black and white approach is a fallacy. Can you give me an example where you couldn't incapacitate an opponent, that the only way to stop them was to kill them? I'd be interested to know.
    TIA,

  9. #39
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    Tony,

    I suppose I could come up with scenarios where I think deadly force would be needed. However I do feel that no matter what I say regarding this matter, you will have a response that negates my point and supports your own. I am not saying that is a bad thing. I am saying that is the nature of the beast. It's not a black and white world. I find most things to be in a grey area.

    The original question is "Can you kill?" The question did not ask for a moral or logical statement, but many of us have felt the need to include scenarios or reasons for our responses, myself included.

    What you are saying Tony, if I understand correctly, is that there is never a need for deadly force. However, just because deadly force is used, it does not mean the person whom it is directed at always dies. What I am saying is that in the thick of things, the struggle for life against someone bent on doing me or my family harm, I will pull no punches. If I can get away safely without a physical confrontation, then you can bet your sweet bippy that I am gone. However if I have to fight for my life I am not going to diferentiate from lightly jabbing the eyes and really gouging. I am the one that wants to walk away from the confrontation, and I am not really too concerned for someone that would deprive me of my life or do me bodily harm. If someone tried to attack me and I gained the upper hand and was choking them out, I would surely stop once they were incapacitated. I am not an animal that wants to take another's life.

    I feel that if I did take the life of an attacker in the struggle for my survival, then so be it. It would be awful, but that is how it goes. I am fully cognizant that is where you and I differ in our opinions, and that is something I can live with.

    If I may, allow me to pose a question to you. I am curious as to your opinion. Do you feel there is ever a time that deadly force is necessary? Do you think that law enforcement ever has the right to take human life? There have been hostage situations where innocents were about to die and the police have had to use precise, lethal force. Do you feel there are alternatives endings to these scenarios? Ok, technically that was a few more than one question. I am just really curious how you would answer these questions.

    Again, I feel we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. But it is certainly enlightening to hear dissenting views and the reasons behind them.

    Respectfully,

    Matthew Ash

  10. #40
    Sgathak Guest

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    Logic isnt the only frame for arguement. Emotion is at least one other example. As is refrence to events, past and present.

    Here is one example... a person high on PCP. You can break his fingers, throw him through a wall, beat him with a crow bar, he will continue to come after you!

    Well you can say "why not just knock him out?" well... because it takes virtually lethal force to slow down someone on PCP anyway, to knock someone out would require an INCREDABLE amount of force, power, and skill. a combination few have, let alone your average joe.

    A friend of mine was on a SWAT team in the Detroit Area about a decade ago, he was on a call out where a guy had locked himself into some small room with a hostage... Well, the guy decided to smoke some laced pot while he was waiting. Supposedly to calm his nerves or something. But the pot had PCP in it... The guy freaked and tried to run... He punched his way through a cinder block wall, ran out into traffic, got hit by a car, stood up and kept running... He got cornered and the officers had to shoot him for their own safety. It took 9 rounds from a .223 rifle to bring him to the ground. After a Shotgun bean bag round and three hits from a 9mm didnt stop him

    On autopsy he had broken every bone in his arms from his fingers to his elbows into peices so small had he lived he would have never been able to use his hands again. His hip was broken in 2 places from the car, and had absorbed over a dozen rounds of ammunition to his main body mass before he succumbed to his wounds.

    If you were a cop having to deal with that... tell me, could you have handled him with an "incapacitation"?


    J Robbins
    Last edited by Sgathak; 4th November 2001 at 02:42.

  11. #41
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    Well, this certainly got heated ...
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    Dimytri Komanatov

  12. #42
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    Mr. Ash seems to have gotten it right. It isn't do you want to kill, or do you need to kill, but can you kill? Which is to say are you prepared to kill?

    Of the many scenarios we might create, we could surely work up a few where lethal force application was the only survival option. I'm sure I could.

    I know as a martial artist, I've been trained in killing techniques. The question is still can I kill? I still don't know.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  13. #43
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Default Ponfar

    Hello, again, everybody.
    This debate has certainly turned passionate. To maintain the Vulcan analogy, is everyone in the throes of ponfar?
    Seriously, though, Sgathak: Your appeal to emotion is another logical fallacy. No matter how passionately you may believe something to be right, you must offer evidence of your position. An argument can only be determined on its merits, not your "gut feeling."
    The point about the SWAT team and the PCP guy is an interesting one; Not having lived in America, I'm out of touch with American sensibilities on the subject (although I note that British police shot dead a man armed with a shotgun who had taken his ex-girlfriend hostage only last week). The thing is, we're not trained professional SWAT team members, and it is not our job to rescue hostages. MA at best handles a small level of violence; anything grander is already beyond our purvue.
    If faced with a PCP-smoking maniac, I understand the reservations expressed by everyone who's posted here to oppose me. In an ideal world, I'd resort to juho, as even someone who feels no pain is subject to the laws of physics; his balance can be broken, and he can be restrained in the same way. Whether my technique is good enough to rely entirely on juho in such a stressful situation is another matter, though. However, that is why we train.
    On the issue of why I keep harping on about the ethics, I wasn't the one who opened the door. Posters who have voted "Yes" in the poll haven't left it there; they've gone on to justify their response, mostly with the logical fallacy: "I'd kill if it was the only way..." As I've repeatedly said, it's not the only way. That's why I keep bringing this up. Logic as the only basis for debate is not negotiable; try emoting in a courtroom in place of rational argument, and you'll see what I mean. To answer "Yes" or "No" is not enough; you must justify your answers.
    I now await the deluge of rebuttals, but I must say it's thought-provoking and stimulating.
    BTW, have any poll respondants been women? I'm curious to know.
    Live long and prosper

  14. #44
    Sgathak Guest

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    Ok.. its a logical fallacy... I can deal with having emotions. If you cant accept the reality that emotion is part of life and the making of choices. Well.. thats not on me.

    This is just a game of ring around the rosies and quite frankly Im tired of going over the same damn thing. Tired of argueing semantics. You dont know until you do it. Some of us have. The rest just quible.


    J (the illogical emotional neanderthal) Robbins

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Ponfar

    Originally posted by Kimpatsu
    To maintain the Vulcan analogy, is everyone in the throes of ponfar?

    << deletia >>

    Live long and prosper

    ... oh wow ... I mean ... I like Star Trek, but ... well ... wow
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    Dimytri Komanatov

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