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View Poll Results: Can you kill a human being if needed?

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  • Yes

    194 89.40%
  • No

    23 10.60%
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Thread: Can you Kill?

  1. #76
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    What's he doing with a gun anyway?

    I don't know Tony , why don't we ask him ?

    It's a situation that can occur in real life. The guy could be a cop or an armed citizen, the states only have a few million of them.
    It could be a military situation, a private detective, a guy being attacked in his home , etc,... anyways it could happen. Either/Or situations happen all the time.

  2. #77
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    If somebody's joined the military, Kosta, I think the point is moot, because they've already resigned themselves to the need to kill. I don't know about the cop scenario, but what about non-lethal ammunition? Granted, we're now bordering on the realm of an ethical rather than a logical decision, but aren't the two deeply intertwined? Why can't the police have non-lethal weapons, anyway? And what's all this with weapons to begin with? A gun is designed to kill; MA is for handling a much smaller level of violence, and here are people talking flippantly about using it to kill. That's this discussion topic, surely? John Lindsey meant for the question to be "Would you use your training to kill?", not "Would you pick up a gun and shoot someone?"
    Now, I've got to go ask the man with the gun what he thinks he's doing...

  3. #78
    Rosi Guest

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    Tony...

    The crucial logical operator here is "if". This is a piece of logic that even some of the undergraduates i've taught have had problems with so i'll go through it again.

    IF I were in a situation where it was necessary to kill an aggressor to protect someone important to me THEN I would be prepared to do so.

    To use the terminology of the page you linked, what you are doing is committing an existential fallacy. To make the above statement is not to imply that there exists such a situation. I can make IF statements about all kinds of impossible and unlikely things: "IF i saw a flying pig THEN i would be very suprised" without suggesting, however, that i ever expect to meet a flying pig.

    The "or" you are complaining about is inside the "if" construct - "IF i had to choose between x and y THEN i would choose x"; this can be a valid statement whether or not i'm ever likely to have to make this choice, or even whether it's logically possible that i will be forced to make this choice. An example would be "I would rather go without food for a week than eat caviar". It's practically impossible to think of a realistic situation in which someone would have to make this choice, but it can still be a true statement.

    Even if your assertion is true and it is never necessary to kill someone to protect yourself or others (i will resist the temptation to debate the point as it is not part of my argument) this does not make the above IF / THEN statement any less valid. Admittedly, some people have not phrased their posts quite that carefully as they quite reasonably assumed that their meaning was obvious. (Anyone who thinks i have misinterpreted their position - please correct me!)

    "Have you stopped beating your wife?" is a different format. It involves a presupposition, ie. something that must be true for the question to make sense. An IF statement or question does not.

    I realise this has been a bit long and tedious and isn't really the point of this topic, so for the sake of everyone else on here, i'd appreciate it if you'd send any further discussion about the logical details of this argument to me personally.

    As for what the questioner intended - i think we should take it at face value. It was, after all, an ethical question rather than a technical one.

    Finally, you are, of course, free to take any ethical position you like and i respect you for doing so. However, i can't help feeling that you are trying to mask the consequences of this ethical position from yourself. Anyone who can honestly say that they would not kill under any circumstances has my wholehearted admiration (although i would not necessarily agree with them); but convincing yourself that there's no sacrifice because you would never have to make that difficult choice is, in my view, something of a cop out. It is true that it is extremely unlikely you'll ever have to make such a choice, but it is still an interesting question because it tells us something about ourselves. Star trek is full of ethical dilemmas like that where the characters are put in unlikely positions where they have to make very difficult choices, and in my opinion this is at least part of the show's appeal - it allows us to consider what we might do when faced with such a dilemma. Of course, there are always those who deny the problem exists: "well, why don't they just use the tachion beam phase transducers to modify the forward sensor array and divert the neutron field away from the romulan vessel?". I still think they're missing the point.

    Rosi Sexton

  4. #79
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    Great Post and welcome to this discussion group Rosi, we could use more like you.

  5. #80
    Kimpatsu Guest

    Thumbs up Hey, Great Post

    Thanks for that, Rosi,
    It was very educational. I like that you're a Star Trek fan, too.
    I stand corrected on the logical/existential fallacy point.
    On the killing, I'm a Shorinji Kenshi, and we're sworn not to kill. It really is that simple (and that difficult)!
    Now I'm off to find a gun...

  6. #81
    Rosi Guest

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    Hi guys

    Thanks for the kind words (i'm astonished by the open mindedness of people on here ). There is a lot to be said for having an ethical position on an issue that you are committed to whatever happens. On issues of conscience, it isn't always necessary to have a logical argument for your point of view. If that's what you believe, Tony, then there's nothing wrong with just stating it in those terms and i'm sure that most of the people on here will respect that even if they don't agree with you. If more people held those beliefs then the world would undoubtedly be a better place.

    Rosi

  7. #82
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Rosi,
    Open-minded? US??!!! Nah...
    Merry Xmas.
    :santa:

  8. #83
    red_fists Guest

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    Late reply to the Poll.

    Do I think that I could kill someone.

    Yes, I think I do. Not because I am a kick ass fighter.
    But simply because it is easier to deliver a deadly blow rather than being able to control it enough to simply disable the Opponnent.
    IMO, we are talking the single most stressful experience a person can get into.


    Could I live with it afterwards,hmmm ..., I will let you know after it happens.

    Peace.

  9. #84
    Ginzu Girl Guest

    Question One thought, one cut.

    Hi Fellas,
    Sorry I'm joining the party so late but I found this thread particularly interesting, so I thought I would give it a shot.

    I'm born and bred in the good ole' US of A. I'm intellectually assertive, physically strong and emotionally confident. I also believe that I am very consistent with all of my messaging. (In other words, when I say "no" with my mouth, my body language concurs. ) In addition to these "self defense" skills, I've developed pretty good radar for bad intentions/vibes. In other words, I do my best to prepare for an engagement that might come at any time.

    Despite all of the above, I've been physically assaulted/threatened several times in my life (all unsuccessfully! )--to varying degrees of severity. This ranges from unwanted grabbing to an attempted rape from an casual acquaintance. Please note, I'm talking about face-to-face encounters. I'm not counting anonymous pinching or fondling in a crowd. (Boy, I'm starting to sound really overly sensitive about my personal space. I'm really not!)

    So here's the interesting part. All of these unwanted encounters were stopped with one blow, or less. None of the assailants were permanently harmed. And I do believe that in at least one situation, I was truly in danger from an evil being. (Note how I've changed the threat from a "human" to an "it.")

    So here goes. . .
    Do I think I could kill someone? YES, THAT IS MY BELIEF. I'm convinced that this belief--my focused and determined intent--has kept me from being a victim.

    (It's very important that I mention here that in NO WAY am I placing blame or responsibility on any victim of an assault. On the contrary, I've become a lot more sympathetic to how easily bad things can happen to any of us.)

    OK, now, if it really came down to it. Could I walk the walk? God forbid I should ever have to meet that person who is just so sociopathic that he/she doesn't respond to my other tools. As Don and Steve point out (from experience, I'm inferring), it's pretty hard to take another human life. Unless of course you are truly sociopathic.

    The reality is, I'm keenly aware of how difficult it is to disassociate yourself from the fact that it's another human being in front of you. I would only be able to follow-through with my intent if I could successfully disassociate myself. I want to, I intend to, but. . . .could I when the moment of truth comes?

    The best I can do is keep reminding myself to continually be prepared to make the single most important decision of my life. If I remember these budo teachings properly, this is the mindset that matters. If you're "doing it right" then you shouldn't have to kill or be killed to prove it. The Catch-22 is, you have to be prepared to follow through because any indecision is "suki" and you're toast.

    BTW, I'm not such a tough old biddy. I'm really a very nice person--at least my pets think so.

  10. #85
    koshoT Guest

    Default Good Question

    I have considered this question before. And to be honest I don't know if i could take a life. In all fairness I am only a beginning Martial Artist so my opinon will probably change, but as of now I really don't think that I could. I have a real problem with hurting people in general and think it should be done with utmost consideration, and should never be taken lightly. Now death. That is something completely different. And that is why I actually like Martial Arts, becasue should the time come when you do need to defend yourself (if you are skilled enough to do so) you should be able to handle the threat without needing to take the person's life. That is the point of being good at peace-time martial arts is it not? To be capable to defend oneself without having to kill... because if you really wanted to defend yourself you could just buy a gun, but then again just owning a gun, and not knowing how to defend yourself otherwise narrows your options, and you may be forced to kill. I like to think that our great teachers had a purpose to their spiritaul teachings. Jesus, Budha, Muhammad, Moses, they all tell us that love is far better than killing. Jesus even let himself die, although he knew he was going to be betrayed. So I think this is more of a moral and ethical question than a possibility question. And I pray to God that I never encounter a situation that would "require" me to kill or be killed. I for one would try any other option. But then again, I have never been in that situation, and I pray I never will. A good Martial Artist should hopefully be able to do something in that situation before it came to that point. MA teaches preparation for everything and anything. So we should not be so much prepared to kill, but be prepared to escape and handle the situation before that option is forced upon us.
    To quote J.R.R. Tolkein, "Many people live that deserve to die. And many die who deserve to live. Can you give them life? Do not be too quick to hand out death and judgement"

    Thank you,
    Tom Berkery
    Last edited by koshoT; 3rd January 2002 at 05:02.

  11. #86
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    I have seen cold blooded, ruthless and unrepentant killers, cuffed and shackled, maced, pinned to the ground, joints dislocated, reach inside themselves somewhere and find the strength to stand up and shake off 4 and 5 trained men, throwing them into concrete walls, desk tops, bunks and steps, against all odds. I have feared for my life, when my most powerful, well directed punches, holds, kicks were as nothing.

    Anyone teaching you can anticipate everything hasn't been in enough combat. Real MA training isn't radar, it's armor.

    At one time, I wasn't prepared to kill, trained to kill, but unprepared. Conditioning has changed that.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  12. #87
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    Thanks for the dose of reality Joe, unfortunately some people just don't understand that real violence can be so unpredictable, instantaneous and overwhelming that it's impossible to say I would act this way or that way, only that I may have to go all out and that could mean killing someone if necessary in that moment.

  13. #88
    koshoT Guest

    Default Thank you

    Thank you for pointing out a mistake in my statement. I think I may have come off sounding as though MA can teach you to predict everything... and they can't. I was trying to say that MA should teach you to be prepared to fight at any time, even though the fight itself is completely unpredictable. The armour that you speak of is what I meant when I said that MA should prepare you for the fight. It should be something that you can use, if you need to. My friend's Dad works at the county correctional facility and I've heard many stories about unexpected attacks (especially knife fights, which get fairly gruesome)... but I dont' beleive that killing is the appropiate response for the unexpected. If you absolutely have no other choice what so ever, and if you don't kill the person then they are goign to kill you, then you may have to do it. And if you ahve to kill it should be done with respect and humility, I don't think you should detach yourself from beleiveing that the person you are killing is a person, becasue that raises a lot of moral issues. However, I only argue that every other option should be tried first.

    Thanks again
    Tom Berkery
    Last edited by koshoT; 4th January 2002 at 00:30.

  14. #89
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    Default Sorry!

    I don't mean to condone taking a life, to approve deliberately killing someone in self defense, even out of desperation. May I however make a distinction? I am prepared to defend my life with deadly force. That is to use techniques which may result in death, without regard for pulling my punches.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  15. #90
    koshoT Guest

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    Very good point Mr. Yang. I think you cut right to the heart of the issue. And I respect that you have the courage to do what you deem necassary. I just don't know if I would be able to do the same. I think I may be too "soft" to do what may be needed.

    Thank you,
    Tom Berkery

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