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View Poll Results: Can you kill a human being if needed?

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  • Yes

    194 89.40%
  • No

    23 10.60%
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Thread: Can you Kill?

  1. #91
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    Default No big thing

    Thank you Mr. Berkery, but it's not the courage to do what I deem neccessary, it's an obligation. I have a duty to make sure my partners and I go home at the end of the day. I hate using deadly force, I'd rather get lumped up. Deadly force encounters leave me very conflicted. I pray I never find myself responsible for anyones death. But I am prepared, I take that risk, it goes with my job.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  2. #92
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    Default

    Well said Joe.

    This perfectly exemplifies what we've been talking about.

    In the real world killing to protect oneself or others is unfortunately sometimes necessary.

  3. #93
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Kosta,
    No it isn't.

  4. #94
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    Default Kosta, Tony

    What I'm tryng to say is I'm kind of in the middle. No killing may not be necessary, but it can result. I'm referencing a win at any cost scenerio, win or die. Not to say you are trying to kill your opponent, but you aren't holding anything back.

    Law enforcement handgun training best illustrates my point. Most agencies teach officers to shoot "center mass, to incapacitate". That is to say go for the biggest target, to stop the fight, to save your life. Okay, there is a real potential for a fatal hit here, but that isn't the point/objective. In reality, under duress, most people survive. Live fire is a whole different scenario. The point is, you aren't trying to kill your opponent, but you are taking that risk to win/survive.

    Please, spare me the Roy Rogers, "Go for the gun hand" comments, at least till you've gone through a live fire stress course, bobbing and weaving, trying to hit moving targets, in low light, dodging friendly fire from half a dozen armed morons on either side of you.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  5. #95
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    I take your point, Joe, but the thing is, if death results accidentally, then you weren't competent enough in dealing with the violence that presented itself, given your admission that the intent was not to kill. As I've written before, my knowledge of guns is zero, but I can understand the "shoot for the centre" argument. This, however, in no way negates the issue of killing accidentally. Justifiable homicide is a very slippery area, but as we're not law enforcement officers, how capable are we of really discussing the issue? BTW, why are we talking about guns anyway? This is e-budo, not Soldier of Fortune
    Happy new year to you both.
    Best,

  6. #96
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    Tony, it isn't about guns, I only brought up the "center mass" analogy to make a point. I've made the point before, MA training isn't radar, it's armor. It's not an early warning system, it is second strike, a fighting chance to survive a deadly ambush.

    Granted, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should be immune to danger, above attack, always have an escape route. Maybe if I keep training long enough I'll get there someday. I'm not there now, does that make me less of a martial artist? Does that preclude me from using the tools I have to defend myself? If I'm attacked and fighting for my life, should I risk loosing my life, because the techniques which might save me could lead to an accidental death? I know what my GM would say to that.

    I suspect we have different ideas of what MA training means. I respect your opinions and points and your right to disagree with me. I'm just trying to make my point clear, so you'll understand where I'm coming from. I thought the handgun training theory helped illustrate my position. I don't think anyone has to be in law enforcement to share my view. In the end, we are all responsible for our own defense. The police won't be there for you if and when you get assaulted.
    Last edited by joe yang; 6th January 2002 at 08:09.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  7. #97
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Agreed, Joe, the police won't be there, but how did you get into this position in the first place? My point is that it is absolutely wrong to take a life. No one has that right, not even accidentally. What are these techniques you're studying that could result in death if misapplied? You seem to be saying that you need to hold back in order to avoid killing, as full 100% application will cause a fatality. There is a better way than that. Learn effective but non-lethal techniques; that way you don't risk the accidental death, and you still remain safe.
    Best,

  8. #98
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    Default

    Tony, I've been shot at, as an innocent bystander. I've been stabbed because I wasn't paying attention, I've been mugged on the way home because I was naive. I've been burgled while I was sleeping. But I never looked for trouble and I refuse to take the blame.

    Are you saying the world belongs to the strong? If I can be overpowered I should submit? Are you saying bad men don't want to hurt me and if they do it's my fault, I deserve it? There are no accidents? The victims I know who were beaten, stomped, strangled, burned, tortured asked for it, deserved it, where in the wrong place at the wrong time, there kung fu was poor? I don't have the right to defend myself at the risk of killing my attacker? I wouldn't be attacked in the first place if I was on the ball/behaving/in the right place?

    PS. sorry, I think I got a little hostile here. I do some work for battered women, taking possesion of goods in Protection From Abuse cases. The whole victim mentality is kind of a hot button with me. Tony, personal appologies, I do respect your opinion.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  9. #99
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    Default

    Joe I believe "center mass" is chosen as a primary target because that's the easiest part of the body to hit. Even snipers who are attempting to kill are trained to aim for center mass and shoot multiple shots.

  10. #100
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    My point is that it is absolutely wrong to take a life. No one has that right, not even accidentally.

    Tony please man , you seem like a really intelligent guy but you don't always make sense. How can you say no one has the right to take a life even accidentally. Accidents happen all the time, people can't always prevent things from happening , especially when dealing with a violent confrontation which is extremely unpredictable. You are starting to sound like you suffer from "Superman Syndrome" where you think that there are some secret techniques out there that are infallible or that a person can become infallible . We can't. We do make miscalculations , mistakes , especially when under great stress , like having our or someone we care about's life in danger.

    Tony, do me a big favor, read the book Black Hawk Down. It deals with a real story about soldiers who were involved in a vicious firefight in Mogadishu, Somalia. This book is very difficult to read in the sense that the violence being described is insane. As a matter of fact the whole book attempts to describe an insane situation. I don't think you'll like this book in terms of an entertaining read. What it will do is help provoke thought about extreme violence.
    This story is about as on the edge as life can get and although I extremely doubt that any of us will ever be in a situation like that( I sincerely hope not ! ) it demonstrates how everything can go wrong and what fighting for your life means.
    Don't take this as me trying to convert you to my way of thinking Tony, just keep an open mind. This book will leave you with so much to think about, I often had to put it down and think about what I had just read.

    Anyways you should think carefully about this idea that training can carry you through anything, and that you can be "On" all the time, real life rarely works that way.

    Good Luck on your path Tony, and all the best this New Year.

  11. #101
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Kosta,
    No one has a right to take a life. Yes, accidents do happen, but that doesn't mean it was justified. Read the autobiography of the Dalai Lama if you doubt my point. (Since we're swapping recommended reading lists.)
    Joe: You said it yourself: You were stabbed because you weren't paying attention. That's the problem. And when did I say anything about victim mentality? I think you've missed the point. By training, you can learn to keep calm in a crisis, apply appropriate technique, etc. You seem to think there's a limit to what you can learn. If so, once that limit is reached, will you stop training? Might as well; there's no value left for you in training. OTOH, if you believe that you have unlimited potential, then you can carry on. And either way, killing is still wrong.
    Peace.

  12. #102
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    Tony, on the contrary, you seem to think anyone who hasn't trained to the point where they can avoid any and all danger shouldn't be permited to use what training they do have in self defense. And yes killing is always wrong. Sometimes there is no right choice, unless you advocate letting the bad guys have their way.
    joe yang, the three edged sword of truth

    "Not going to be fooled by you again Joe Yang's right you are evil and self-serving." Haiyomi

    "Give my regards to joe yang. very intelligent man." Sojobow

  13. #103
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    No, Joe,
    You've missed my point. You seem complacent in that what you know is good enough, even if it results accidentally in death. You don't seem to find killing sufficiently abhorrant, and that worries me.
    BTW, there are other ways of preventing the bad guys from getting their way.
    Best,

  14. #104
    Sgathak Guest

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    What if you throw a guy... can you guarantee he wont fall on his head?

    What if you punch a man... can you guarantee that he hasnt mixed a little vodka with asprine and is now bleeding from a massive internal hemoragge?

    What if you kick a man... can you guarantee that his broken bone wont severe an artery?

    What if you choke a man... can you guarantee that you will hold him EXACTLY long enough that he passes out and not that extra half second it takes for him to die?

    What if a man attacks you with a knife... can you guarantee that he will not fall on it if you trip him?

  15. #105
    Kimpatsu Guest

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    Sgathak,
    You can if you're well trained enough. And accurate enough, and persevere enough, and...
    There is no such thing as perfect technique. You can always be a little faster, a little bit more accurate, a little bit cleaner in your execution. The issue is to try, and not say, "I'm good enough to defend myself now, so I don't need to worry about what happens to the other guy." Fusatsu Katsujin; "Thou shalt not kill.
    Best,

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