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Thread: The Various Daito-ryu Branches

  1. #1
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    Default Which is real?

    I've had a bit of interest in Daito-ryu, since I used to study aikido. So, this topic prompted me to do a little web search.

    It appears that there are a lot of Daito-ryu entities:

    http://www.daito-ryu.org/
    http://www.daito-ryu.com/
    http://www.daitoryu-roppokai.org/history.htm
    http://www.izzy.net/~dsharp/Yamabushi.htm
    http://www.goshinkai.com/Pages/Main.htm
    http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/4856/

    Then there's a whole list at
    http://www.niagara.com/~zain/html/organize.htm

    How can you tell which system is legitimately linked to Takeda Sokaku?
    Peter Claussen

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    Question

    Brently,


    What are the guidelines ,so one can discern between the legitimate Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu ( or just Aiki Jujutsu in general) and the frauds.




    Thank You,
    ken allgeier
    " The FUTURE is UNWRITTEN,KNOW YOUR RIGHTS"
    The Clash.

  3. #3
    MarkoMilitary Guest

    Default daito-ryu

    Thanks for your replies.That's what I thought about them.I know something about the other groups so I know that most of the groups dakotajudo wrote about are somehow connected to the original Takeda branch.Anyway, thanks for the replies once again.

  4. #4
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    Guys,

    I'll make a little list for you.

    The only authentic schools of Daito ryu I personally recognize.

    Hombu/mainline, Katsuyuki Kondo

    Daito ryu Takumakai

    Daito ryu Kodokai

    Daito ryu Roppokai

    Daito ryu / Seishin Abashiri

    (These guys are legit Daito ryu but they IMHO fraudulently claim the mainline trad.)

    Thats it! If they aren't directly linked ( recognized) by these groups, I don't count them.

    Toby Threadgill

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    Toby, have you had contact with or heard about the Hakuhokai? It's a Daito-ryu school headed by Shogen Okabayashi, holder of Kyoju Dairi. I believe he was a student of both Tokimune Takeda and Hisa Takuma.
    Last edited by Devon Smith; 27th June 2001 at 17:15.

  6. #6
    Yamantaka Guest

    Question DAITO RYU BRANCHES

    Originally posted by Devon Smith
    Toby, have you had contact with or heard about the Hakuhokai? It's a Daito-ryu school headed by Shogen Okabayashi, holder of Kyoju Dairi. I believe he was a student of both Tokimune Takeda and Hisa Takuma.
    YAMANTAKA : And isn't there also a group called BUKOYOKAI, to which Miguel Ybarra Sensei is linked?
    Best

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    I agree with Toby those are the main Daito-ryu branches.

    One can start with Stanley Pranin's book since it contains interviews with all the authentic major branches of Daito-ryu descended from Sokaku Takeda.

    They are as follows:

    Mainline: Sokaku Takeda > Tokimune Takeda > Katsuyuki Kondo

    Takumakai: Sokaku Takeda > Takuma Hisa > Hakaru Mori

    Kodokai: Sokaku Takeda > (Taiso Horikawa) > Kodo Horikawa > Yusuke Inoue

    Roppokai: Sokaku Takeda > Kodo Horikawa > Seigo Okamoto

    Sagawa dojo: Sokaku Takeda > Yukiyoshi Sagawa > ??

    These are the undisputed main branches of Daito-ryu, like Toby said, if there is no direct link to one of these then I'd say they should be seriously questioned.

    Having said that, I'm not aware if any of Sagawa's students received the kyoju dairi or if he designated a successor, however some of his students are teaching and I've heard that a handful still practice in his dojo (at least a few years ago).

    The Hakuhokai was founded by Okabayashi sensei who was a student of both Tokimune Takeda and Takuma Hisa. He claims to have received a kyoju dairi in Daito-ryu and a menkyo in Ono-ha Itto-ryu (Takeda-den). I've not been able to confirm these ranks, but if they are legitimate, his should be recognized as an authentic branch.

    The Abashiri Seishinkai group is derived from Tokimune's mainline, and could thus be called a splinter of Tokimune's branch. They do have a technical connection to Tokimune, but appear to be misrepresenting their claims to be the "true" heirs as they had already split from the hombu dojo prior to Tokimune's passing. I do not recall for certain whether any of the Seishinkai leaders actually received the kyoju dairi prior to leaving, but I seem to remember Stanley Pranin saying they were previously only godan. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


    Ken, to answer your question, I believe that one must have received at least the kyoju dairi to be able to make any legitimate claim to teach authentic Daito-ryu, outside of one of the above (five or six) mentioned authentic branches.

    In addition if I may go off on a tangent here, it is my personal opinion that ultimately it is skill that validates one's rank and not vice versa. In otherwords, one may hold a kyoju dairi (or other rank), but if he/she does not have the skills to demonstrate and validate that level of rank then the value (and perhaps authority) of the rank itself is subject to question, if not from within the organization then at least from without. I think that anyone with kyoju dairi (or higher) should also possess more than sufficient skills and abilities to validate their license. In fact, they should possess extra-ordinary skills and abilities, along with the personal character necessary to defend the honor of and preserve the essence of the tradition.

    There is recognition among the above mentioned leaders of the authentic branches of Daito-ryu, and that is because of their legitimate lineal connection to Sokaku Takeda, their leader's receipt of kyoju dairi (or above) licenses, and their possession of exceptional skills.

    The opposite is not necessarily true IMO. Just because someone possesses exceptional skills does not entitle them to use the prestige and name of whatever tradition they wish to identify with. ESPECIALLY if they have NOT received those skills from within the tradition. For example, many people have become skilled learning from aikido instructors (and/or other systems), but then claim to teach aikijujutsu or some derivative of Daito-ryu, when they or their teachers have not really learned their skills from Daito-ryu at all, but rather from a secondary or even tertiary source.

    Basically I don't think you can study Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Aikido for example, and then claim to be an aikijujutsu master (even if you have attended seminars or classes taught by authentic Daito-ryu masters!), it just doesn't entitle you to greatness, or to even claim you are a student of such masters, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to teach Daito-ryu yourself.

    Mine is not the final word by any means, and neither is Toby's, but I think that the main groups Toby mentioned, along with the remnants of Sagawa's dojo are certainly indisputable, as there is general consensus among the heads of those branches.

    Those branches are also all represented in Stanley Pranin's book, "Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters". Stanley is not a Daito-ryu authority per se, nor is his the final word either, but he is a knowledgable and respected historian and researcher of Aikido and Daito-ryu history who has established a reputation for being objective.

    Brently Keen

  8. #8
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    Devon,

    If Shogen Okabayashi's claim of a kyoju dairi is authentic I would definitely include his group.

    The Sagawa group as well but due to Sagawa's passing and their continued low profile I didn't list them.

    Although I am familiar with Ibarra Sensei and hold him & his skills in very high regard I believe it might be ... unwise to call the the Bukoyokai a style of Daito ryu. I understand it was founded by the late Katsumi Yonezawa after he was expelled from the Kodokai. (If I am wrong in this please correct me). Aikijujutsu.....maybe. Daito ryu? Ummmm... not if he was expelled from the Kodokai.

    (Okay.. I can just hear the tantrum starting over this. So what.. he still learned and was licensed in Daito ryu?) Understand that in my position if an instructor of TSYR broke his keppan and was hamoned, he would be forbidden to use the Shindo Yoshin ryu name. In the TSYR instructors keppan he agrees to this condition and seals it with his blood. He can go teach whatever he likes outside the ryu but it cannot be called Shindo Yoshin ryu. I personally hold Katsumi Yonezawa to this criteria.

    Tobs

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    Default

    Brently said:

    "In addition if I may go off on a tangent here, it is my personal opinion that ultimately it is skill that validates one's rank and not vice versa....I think that anyone with kyoju dairi (or higher) should also possess more than sufficient skills and abilities to validate their license. In fact, they should possess extra-ordinary skills and abilities, along with the personal character necessary to defend the honor of and preserve the essence of the tradition."
    I don't mind the tangency, Brently, (in fact I appreciate it) and I hope Marko doesn't mind either.

    Basically I don't think you can study Hakko-ryu Jujutsu and Aikido for example, and then claim to be an aikijujutsu master (even if you have attended seminars or classes taught by authentic Daito-ryu masters!), it just doesn't entitle you to greatness, or to even claim you are a student of such masters, and it certainly doesn't entitle you to teach Daito-ryu yourself.
    I strongly agree with your statement. Though Hakkoryu and Aikido have common roots (from almost the same generation of commonality) I am amazed at the differences. All three schools have what appear to be similar techniques, but in my opinion, more often than not there are vast differences below the surface. I'm well past the point of having formed an opinion that there are far more differences than similarities. I wish I had three lifetimes in order to study them all to the same extent...but I had to pick one, and I'm pleased to say I'm extremely happy to have made the choice I did.

    My only regret is that concerning Daito-ryu I have no first-hand experience regarding the school's concept and teachings regarding "aiki" as my only exposure to Daito-ryu is of Okabayashi sensei and his students who taught some basic jujutsu techniques at seminars. I'm well aware that my own understanding of the concept may differ from that of the Daito-ryu.

    Toby, I understand your position concerning Yonezawa. Hakkoryu adheres to the same ryu "rules"...menkyojo can be granted and they can also be taken away. Those individuals who are retired/expelled have nullified their licenses and scrolls, their right to issue menjo in the ryu and cannot claim to teach Hakkoryu.

    I appreciate the comments. I will attempt to provide more information regarding Okabayashi sensei. I'd like to see him recognized amongst the others, so I'll see what I can provide.

    Regards,

    Devon

    {edited for spelling}
    Last edited by Devon Smith; 28th June 2001 at 05:54.

  10. #10
    MarkoMilitary Guest

    Default Daito ryu

    Right Devon I don't mind the tangency and I think that you guys explained it to me very well.
    Many Thanks.

  11. #11
    MarkoMilitary Guest

    Smile Roppokai

    Mr Keen you are a Roppokai 'instructor' right?.Can you give me your permission to e-mail you, 'cause I have a couple of questions to ask and I think that it would be better to e-mail you than to ask it here on the forum.

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    Marko (and everyone),

    Please let me clarify something:

    To really be an "Instructor" in Daito-ryu, you must have received the kyoju dairi (master teaching license), I'm not there yet.

    In the Roppokai, Okamoto sensei also gives a jun kyoju dairi, or assistant instructors license. I'm not there yet either. I'm still a lowly shodan since I've not been training regularly enough in Tokyo for some years, I've not advanced along like some of my peers (and even juniors) who have since passed me up in rank. But I don't much worry about that, as ranks in the Roppokai (below okugi sandan) do not indicate ability so much as time spent training with Okamoto sensei. For me, the pursuit of actual ability is much more important, than the accumulation of rank.

    As you know, traditionally there were no ranks in Daito-ryu only certificates and licenses. Traditionally in Daito-ryu it was (and ultimately is IMHO) techniques that are ranked, not individuals. One can execute shoden, chuden, okuden, and/or hiden level techniques, or you can't.

    In the Roppokai, all students train together and Okamoto sensei teaches the same techniques/curriculum to everybody. He doesn't teach some basic techniques to the beginners and some other "secret" advanced techniques to the seniors. Everyone practices the same things.

    I believe this is one of the reasons why the Roppokai is considered to be the most progressive of the Daito-ryu branches. It's not because the Roppokai techniques or curriculum are more modern than they are "classical". Certainly as a master instructor, Okamoto sensei has been an innovator. He's continued to develop the art, and created new techniques and training methods. But he has done so remaining faithful to the principles of the art. What many fail to realize is that Okamoto sensei still teaches both the same techniques and uses the same essential method that Sokaku transmitted to Kodo Horikawa who in turn taught them to Okamoto sensei.

    Anyway, the main reason the Roppokai is "progressive" is because Okamoto sensei teaches openly. All members are shown the goods, but in the end, everyone's techniques also reveal their progress from shoden to chuden to okuden to hiden levels of application. Personally, I am content to let my techniques speak for themselves.

    So getting back to the subject, technically I am not an "instructor" in the Roppokai. However, I was designated by Okamoto sensei as the Shibu-cho (branch director) for the Western USA, which for all practical purposes was limited to the Santa Cruz Roppokai. In that context, I am allowed to teach my students only what I know (up to my level of ability). I do not go by the title "sensei", since I still consider myself primarily a fellow student (along with all Roppkai members) of Okamoto sensei.

    Incidentally, the Santa Cruz dojo is now on sabbatical as I am currently living in Colorado. With that all cleared up, I now move on to Marko's question:

    Please feel free to email me personally (my email should be in my profile), I'd be happy to try and answer any questions you might have, and if I don't know the answer, I'll try and find out. Likewise, if I can be of any assistance to anyone else here at e-budo please feel free to email me as well.

    Brently Keen
    soulsamurai@hotmail.com

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    Question Many Daito ryu?

    Hello all!

    I have a few questions that I hope someone can answer.
    First of all, I'd like to apologize if these questions have been answered too many times already, but the subjects are still a bit confusing to me...I do not know a lot about Daito ryu.

    I have only seen some demonstrations, I believe by Kondo Katsuyuki (main line Daito ryu?) and I do not personally know any students of aikijujutsu. Please have patience with me.

    1. There seem to be several branches or groups of Daito ryu.
    What groups are concidered "legit" (or, rather, founded by direct students of Takeda Sokaku)?

    2. Have all the founders of these groups recieved menkyo (or similar) by Takeda Sokaku, or at least recieved the whole curriculum of Daito ryu?

    3. What students (founders of branches) studied most (or the longest period of time perhaps) under Takeda Sokaku and how would their knowledge (not skill) of the complete Daito ryu curriculum compare to that of Ueshiba Morihei's?

    4. Are these branches very different in how they organize techniques and what they actually teach today, and is it in any way possible to tell what group teaches the closest to Takeda Sokaku's own Daito ryu?

    5. Did Takeda Sokaku teach kenjutsu at all after introducing Daito ryu to a wider audience and did he then call it Daito ryu or Ono ha Itto ryu? If he taught these arts, what students recieved these teachings, how much and how are they viewed by the main line of the Ono ha Itto ryu?

    6. Did Takeda Sokaku teach other weapons than sword in connection to Daito ryu?

    7. What is the "Kaishaku soden" (sp?)?

    Well, that was a whole lot of questions (phew)!!
    I hope that someone will at least take on one or two of them.

    Sincerely,

    Ulf Undmark
    Last edited by Undmark, Ulf; 3rd November 2001 at 16:04.

  14. #14
    MarkF Guest

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    Hi, Ulf,
    Since on one has answered you yet, I'll give it a go (Watch! Now they will crawl out of the rocks they live under to correct my insinutated knowledge. )

    1)"Mainline" DR is that directly under Kondo Katsuyuki. Others within that are the late son of Sokaku Takeda, Tokimune, generally considered to be the only one with permission to teach it, but the other schools said to be legitimate schools of DR are the Kodokai, Roppokai and Takamtsu-ha

    2)I'm not sure, but I believe the only one recognized and handed the entire curriculim is Kondo-sensei.

    3)There were some thirty-thousand which received instruction from Sokaku, but it is said few were given instruction in aiki no jutsu, or the ura (trade secrets). Sokaku almost always traveled to instruct and was said to have charged per technique, so the reason for so many being able to make the claim of "direct" instruction.

    4)Well, perhaps those schools recognized to day as legitimate probably teach technique as close as anyone to the original, so they are "mainline DR", Kodokai, Roppokai, Takamatsu-ha (?), and then there is the Seishinkai out of Abashiri in Japan which makes claims to the Head Family, etc., but is not recognized by the schools I've mentioned. Instead, they were connected to a distant relative of Takeda Sokaku. From what I've read and seen by video, they all have distinct manners of teaching, but the basic principles are the same.

    5)I am sure Sokaku had learned some iai or kenjutsu, but I am not sure of the extent that he taught them, if at all.

    6)Don't know.

    7)Don't know

    I hope someone comes to rescue me from the pit of doom, and will deal with me harshly, but with kindness in each lash. Perhaps, since I can't answer much definitively, someone will come and fill in the gaps...no...huge cravass' I've opened up.

    I apologize for not knowing any more, or cannot be specific on the "I think" answers.

    In all sincerity, I should simply point out the mainline web site URL: http://daito-ryu.org and you may want to visit the Aikido Journal online to see the interviews, and statements of Stanley Pranin. I understand that he may know more than anyone else on the general subject of your questions, or read a book on the subject, both available at: http://www.aikidojournal.com. Kondo-sensei has answered some questions which came about with the Abashiri group, and answers that question as well as others which have many discussing the technical questions surrounding the main school[s]. I've read most of the discussions at AJ and am very confused, so good luck.

    You will find those answers, either as a member of AJ, or on the message board there. The paper magazine in now only available online, but I believe back issues can be had there as can the books on DR, one by S. Pranin with his interviews, a book or perhaps two, by Kondo-sensei.

    Good luck!

    Mark

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    Mark,

    Thank you very much for answering. I was worried for a while that there were a very specific reason no one had answered that I might have missed or missunderstood. I am new to this forum.

    I, like you, have read some of the articles to be found on-line, but it is very confusing for someone who have had close to no experience at all with these groups. It is very difficult to find the information I asked for when dealing with so many groups and claims and so much information. I've tried to find and clear out the specifics that I asked for (that is the information that I really find most interesting) but it's all mixed up with myths, legends (about Takeda and the origins of different aiki-teachings and aiki-budo), different points of view from different groups as well as different oppinions from Ueshibas students and followers. Most of all, there's a whole lot of information that is probably hidden among thousands of lines of other information in various books and internet sites.

    Thanks again for taking the time to answer and I really hope that more people can perhaps help out and participate as well.

    Best Regards,
    Ulf Undmark

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