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Thread: Learning from books

  1. #1
    Fred Stakem Guest

    Default Learning from books

    Over the years i have seen a lot of people
    knock book learning in the ma. We have all
    seen enough people who would rather spend
    class discussing why they practice
    bujustu rather than budo...or better yet the
    taiji master who knows more chinese than
    the guy at the chinese take out, but still
    can't do the short form. Sometimes it's
    so bad its almost laughable. The problem
    I see now is people don't attempt
    to learn things from books...as if
    because their master didn't teach it
    to them then they can't learn it on
    their own.

    But what about all of the good things that
    have been learned from books. And I am not
    just talking about philosophies. I can
    honestly say that after practicing ma
    for quite a while it would be better to
    learn from a book than what you get at
    your typical Mcdojo. I know some books
    where the form is so top notch I study
    it form hours. I am quite proud to say
    that I have learned techniques from books.
    It keeps me thinking and analyzing the
    different ways in which people practice
    ma without going to get a black belt in
    all those ma.

    Just wondering what people thought on the
    topic. And what books people have learned
    a lot from.

    Fred Stakem

  2. #2
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    Cool Blinders

    What I find alarming is not so much trying to learn a martial art from books, but a surprising lack of general knowledge on the part of practitioners. Some of the whoppers tossed about by people in various arts are astounding and cured by the least bit of familiarity with some basic history and general knowledge of the various arts, some math and science, and literature.
    Problem = not enough book learning.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  3. #3
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    Default Few teachers of Katas in Judo

    There are too few teachers of Kata in Judo. Therefore, Kawaishi's "Complete Seven Katas" has become a almost a bible for me.

    Pete.
    Pete Boyes.
    "Whoa, careful now. These are dangerous streets for us upper-lower-middle-class types. So avoid eye contact, watch your pocketbook, and suspect everyone." - Homer Simpson.

  4. #4
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Of course you can learn from books. One needs only to see the limit, or the value it has. As to tecnnique, I do not think you can learn from it, but you certainly can learn basic principles, history, who, where, or why.

    But like the Internet, not everything published has value. In fact, I'd guess most of it doesn't. Having the ability to separate what is and what isn't, is a gift. Use it.

    There is an old saying: "Do not believe anything you see or hear, and only and nth of what you read." That may not be worded exactly, but I've heard that for most of my life. In degrees, it is pretty damn close.

    Mark

  5. #5
    popupsoldier Guest

    Smile Good question !

    Ah - a question always on the mind of most martial artists - especially beginners..

    My opinion is this: books are a wonderful guide and resource to have as a set of notes more than a learning tool perse. The learning tool should be a teacher, and the book - a reference
    guide (notes o prompt learning).

  6. #6
    Fred Stakem Guest

    Default

    What I find alarming is not so much trying to learn a martial art from books, but a surprising lack of general knowledge on the part of practitioners

    Oh so true...but in my opinion it is not just the ma comunity.
    Anti-intellectualism is a sad fact of modern society. We live in a society that trys to appeal to peoples emotion instead of intellect.

    My opinion is this: books are a wonderful guide and resource to have as a set of notes more than a learning tool perse. The learning tool should be a teacher, and the book - a reference guide

    Or maybe the teacher should be a guide and the student's
    intellect and reason should be the learning tool. I have had
    some good teachers that have shown me techniques....but my
    best teachers showed me endless variations of techniques and
    told me to go try it out and explore the different possibilities.
    Sad fact is that most people don't do a whole lot of thinking
    beyond what their teacher tells them. I hope when I teach
    one day my students are not limited by my experiences....
    they should do some on their own.

    As to tecnnique, I do not think you can learn from it, but you certainly can learn basic principles, history, who, where, or why.

    Some of the more difficult forms or systems might be hard to
    learn from a book. If you don't have someone to throw it
    is hard to learn judo. I have seen people get by with
    'judo dummies'....it isn't pretty, but I don't think you should
    spoil a students drive to learn. The hard part is learning
    the rythme, speed, and timing which are not shown in a book.
    If the student has learned a martial art they might be able
    to adapt these things already known to the new forms in a book.
    But sometimes the very fact that a student doesn't know
    these things makes them think and experiment more.
    I have learned more being away from a teacher and practicing
    on my own than when I am in a ma class. Too often in class
    people just repeat and don't think of all of the whys.
    Some of the best stuff I have learned from books is the
    variations of joint locks....it seems no matter how many times
    you have seen a joint lock there is someone out there with a
    neat variation. All of the thinking and experimenting helps
    to bring clarity which doesn't always come about by repeating.

    Fred Stakem

  7. #7
    Don Cunningham Guest

    Default

    I agree that books are fantastic in combination with regular practice and a good instructor. Kata, for example, often requires frequent reference to authorities instead of relying on the memory of the instructor, especially regarding the finer points.

    Sometimes books are the only option when trying to research those arts which have no instructors or none within a reasonable distance. I wouldn't want to rely solely on books, but sometimes it is necessary.

  8. #8
    Gabe litz Guest

    Default

    If you ask me there is only two way to learn and thats to first learn the art that fits you be it by book or by teacher and the second is to actually use the techniqes.
    Well thats just my opinion.

  9. #9
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    Default it's the way you approach the books

    Hi!! i have like three month in aikido class and my classes are very difficult cause every day i go is something different to learn. my sensei keeps going on different techniques everyday and it seems that i don't even have time to learn them, So here's comes the book part, i go home and i use as reference a couple of books from my school i go around those techniques i didn't even have time to practice at the dojo, so i start going around it application philosophy, and i practice at home, when i get to my dojo my sensei sometimes say, " you have a good memory" or "maaannn!! you're a fast learner" is not that is the way i approach the books.

    Pablo Rosado

  10. #10
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    Default

    I think if a new student attempts to learn exculsively from books, his abilities will be incomplete at best. Books are great for someone who already understands techniques because they can illuminate endless variations. Though the danger of this is when you focus on too many variations at once, because when it comes time to act there are too many possibilities so the mind gets confused as to which way to go, and by the time it decides the opportunity is lost. For newer students a book can be useful as references to techniques that they've already worked with, such as Paburo is doing, and it may even convey some subtleties that weren't previously understood.


    "The hard part is learning the rythme, speed, and timing which are not shown in a book."

    This I believe is a key point.


    "Anti-intellectualism is a sad fact of modern society. We live in a society that trys to appeal to peoples emotion instead of intellect."

    How true. Fred, may I quote you at my leisure?


    Jon Small

  11. #11
    Ishinguy Guest

    Default

    Hi Fred, I too beleive that books can be useful learning tools. I am an Orange belt in karate studying a system that is basicaly made up from Shotokan, Wado-ryu and Kyokushinkai,
    Would you mind recommending some reading material for me please.I have read Mas Oyama's Complete Karate course and am currently reading Patrick McCarthy's translation of the Bubishi but frankly that is way beyond me ! I enjoyed Mas Oyama and anything along those lines would be interesting.
    Thanks and Merry Christmas
    nick B

  12. #12
    Ben_Holmes Guest

    Default

    I can't help it, I just *have* to throw in a commercial here!

    Try http://www.bestjudo.com for Judo Book Reviews. I have a small list of other martial art books as well, but I concentrate on Judo.

    Hope no-one's offended by my blatant attempts at advertising here!

  13. #13
    red_fists Guest

    Cool Books can help!

    Interesting Topic.

    At my School we got Form Books for the students. These are used in Conjunction with the training in Class.

    The Books are simply a collection of movement names and the Form in Pictures.

    Most newcomers can't make head or tail of those things, but the more experienced Students love them for because the are used to memorise the movement sequence and can be used as a way of checking foot and hand positions.

    OTOH, there are plenty of books out there that speak in terms that a beginning student will never follow.

    Example:
    The Tai Chi Classics say: Lead with intent and the body follows.

    My Instructor says: Visualize the Pose you should be in and your Body will fill the visualised Image.

    Both talk the same thing, but use completely different terminology.

    And the same counts for Books aswell, what works for A might not do anything for B.

    Books are good for learning the non-physical parts of a system/style, but cannot teach timing, distance and cannot check your progress nor correct you.

    So, yes, Books are an important part of study but best be used as a supplemental tool to an Instructor.
    Or by experienced Students.

    Said that Books can also lead a Student down the wrong path or simply confuse him more than is neccesary.
    Especially if the Book is by somebody who's ideas differ than his Instructors.

    Just my pondering on this X-Mas Day.
    Have a good one everyone.

  14. #14
    MarkF Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Ben_Holmes
    I can't help it, I just *have* to throw in a commercial here!

    Try http://www.bestjudo.com for Judo Book Reviews. I have a small list of other martial art books as well, but I concentrate on Judo.

    Hope no-one's offended by my blatant attempts at advertising here!
    Ben,
    It wan't advertising at all if you don't use words such as "advertising" in your post. Next time, give the link saying there are "book reviews at this site" or something similar. If you want to be specific say "See 'such and such' review at http://www.bestjudo.com ," then giving the author's name, even if your own.

    Now I would add a small list of two or three web sites for this purpose, such as http://www.bstkd.com/judo.htm along with it. Big Sky judo also has a nice list of books and reviews.

    I hope you don't find my "blatant attempt" to get in my review of your post here.

    The Best Judo web site IS a good one for its stated purpose. It also has a message board for the discussion of these books. Pitctures are also added from time to time.

    Mark

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    Default

    Nick --

    The books by Nakayama are nice for JKA versions of Shotokan kata, while the books by Higaonna are nice for Goju Ryu kata. For taikyoku, though, you'll need Gichin Funakoshi's book (Karate-do Nyumon, I think it is), as Gosei Yamaguchi's books are out-of-print.

    Get the taikyoku and heian series down, and you'll also know your basic Tang Soo Do hyung.

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