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Thread: the next thirty to forty years

  1. #1
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    Default the next thirty to forty years

    i have a few ideas that i would like to hear opinions on.

    i am wonder if people think that Aikido will change drastically within the next 30-40 years

    i say this in regard to the fact that most of O'Sensei's first generation deshi will have passed on by then.

    does anyone think that this will have any major ramifications?

    yours truly

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    Interesting topic.
    I would say that Aikido as a whole may not change radically, but it is likely that you will see more splintering, perhaps even into styles that are increasingly eclectic. There will continue to be a core of practitioners who hold to specific approaches, applications, and traditions, but I should not be surprised to see a newer generation that is inclined to create hybrid styles with an attempt to integrate cross training elements such as, say, striking arts, groundwork or Philippine style knifework. Some of these will die right off of the vine from lack of internal cohesion, others will mutate to the point that they are no longer effectively Aikido but rather hybrids that provide new matrices for various defensive concepts. This certainly seems to be the case for most other arts.
    Undoubtedly, the politics of these various schools, approaches, and organizations will become increasingly Byzantine. Beyond that, I really can't provide much projection.
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
    Sting-The Soul Cages

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    agreed. i believe that there will be more splintering, more expressive, stylistic approaches, amd eclectic aikido as well.

    does anyone think that the quality of aikido will lessen when the first generation of instructors pass?

    does anyone feel that aikido is better now than it was when O'Sensei was alive

    i am personally worried that i may never have the chance to meet people like Saito Sensei, or Saotome Sensei, for example. maybe those of you who get to train first hand under our advancing shihan can give some insight as to what might be done to preserve the knowledge that they have spent their lives attaining.

    yours truly

  4. #4
    INFINOO Guest

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    First of all IMO Aikido never was a "pure art" from the beginning, so why start now?. So words like splinter groups and hybred styles are an indication to me, that some know there own art , not. Im a beleiver in cross training in kali, wrestling, jujutsu, Tai-chi and western knife arts as well as others. From my experience its a win, win situation. You win by learning new concepts and you win by learning whats out there.
    One thing I learned from my father is that you must constantly try to improve the way you do things. Not just do it because my teacher did. So what will Aikido look like in fourty years?. Who knows?, but one things is for sure it will change.

    Gregory Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives International

  5. #5
    Johan Tibell Guest

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    Originally posted by autrelle

    i am personally worried that i may never have the chance to meet people like Saito Sensei, or Saotome Sensei, for example. maybe those of you who get to train first hand under our advancing shihan can give some insight as to what might be done to preserve the knowledge that they have spent their lives attaining.
    I'm also worried about that perhaps I won't be able to train under some of O-Sensei's direct students. I most likely go to Iwama in June and train under Saito Sensei but sadly his health stops him from teaching as much as he probably want to. Instead Hitohiro (sp?) Sensei is in charge of most of the training (and high ranking sempais I belive).

    I wrote a post where I tried (not so sucessfully) to explain my worries about Aikido in the future on Aikido Journal (link). I tried to generate a discussion how we as students should prevent that knowledge would become lost between generations.

    Regards,

    Johan Tibell

  6. #6
    Jerry Johnson Guest

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    Dear Aikidokas,

    I hope that I am not interrupting this sincere and thought provoking thread with my question.

    From what I have been reading the concern many have as universal. Therefore, I ask, what will be the quality of Aikido in "x" number years? That is with all the proposed future interpretations, splintering, and new generation leaders what will become of quality in tradition, technique, and philosophy. Also, did the founder foresee such change and inspire it? Or did he disapprove of it. That is would he have disapproved of all the splintering etc. now and in the future?

    Thank you for taking the time to entertain this question.
    Last edited by Jerry Johnson; 11th December 2001 at 03:11.

  7. #7
    Jerry Johnson Guest

    Default An add-on

    I would like to add to the above that I have argued in favor of competition in Aikido. But my inquire is not related to that. Such a change as competition is outside the greater scope of my question of quality being lost or improved through change and if such change is inevitable or acceptable.


    Why I feel this is universal is because it is an issue faced by other martial arts and by how all martial arts will be practiced and perceived in the future as societies change as well. Aikido it's self could be a result of just such a thing as concerning quality and change. Aikido is a splinter of one art and or an eclectic art and it maintained quality and change. Why can't that happen with new splinter or new eclectic groups of Aikido?

    Last thought is a future splinter group surpassing what some believe as core ideal Aikido that is based on founding core principles both technically and philosophical? Could this happen? Why barriers would be faced. I say this in terms of how I see Aikido being birthed.
    Last edited by Jerry Johnson; 11th December 2001 at 03:29.

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    It seems to me that Aikido is not so much a system as it is an approach to matrial arts. O-sensei did not establish a set curriculum, probably on purpose, but this has allowed each of his students to develop differently. In 30-40 years, all the first gen and most of the 2nd gen wil be gone. There will arise new geniuses who redefine Aikido, probably with new names, some being more pure to the original and some not. Many styles of Aikido will stray into their own avenues, some better systems than the original, most probbaly not. Actually not much different than today. The bulk of Aikikai "mainstream" will continue to pursue the legacy.

    This is similar to the history of Buddhism. First a small group learn directly, slowly the descendants lose the fire of the original, but develop new ways of sparking it. We cannot duplicate O-sensei's life, therefore none of us will arrive at the peak throught his path. We seek what he sought. Many believe that it is not possible to attain his level. That is self-limiting; like Buddhists, if we cannot attain it then we are not really on the path. However, like Buddhists, there is the large devotional path and the private paths that lead to enlightenment. Many people need devotion and it is eminently valuable to their lives, but this does not lead them to nirvana.

    Some credence must be given to the "blind men and elephant" situation. It is likely that none even of Ueshiba's direct students received all that Ueshiba learned, knew or taught. There is not really any attempt to re-synthesize everything either. Even the various Daito-ryu groups do not include O-sensei's personal insights and transformations, although they are probably a good source for the range of "aiki" on which O-sensei based his art. There is much religious dissension about which angels dance best, so practitioners often do not acknowledge the transmission, genius and breakthroughs of others. This is not science; everyone will not agree that the earth is round or that Bose-Einstein Condensate allows you to slow light to 38 mph. It is not testable or duplicatable. But it will keep us busy!

    Jack Bieler
    Denton, Texas

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    A few thoughts on a sunny Sunday morning here in Hiroshima...

    1. I think the tendency for aikido to lose its Japanese/historical roots will continue. I have done a fair amount of research on the history of Japan during the transition (a real revolution) from Tokugawa to Meiji and on the early life of Morihei Ueshiba in its Meiji/Taisho setting. The Founder really was a man of his time and though the art he created (extending over a period from, say, around 1920 to 1942) was revolutionary, it was still 100% a Japanese budo, with much of the cultural baggage of the 1930s. In the aftermath of the Pacific War, there was a substantial shift. Aikido became open to anybody and it became open to non-Japanese, i.e., to people who did not or could not place aikido in its Japanese cultural context. And, very important, there were no post-war uchi-deshi.

    2. In place of the Founder's 'organised chaos' of Omoto-kyo, Shinto/Shingon Buddhism, and popular folktales, people like Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei imposed some sort of order and presented what they saw as the core: techniques and 'spiritual' training, the latter firmly divorced from any hint of 'religion': an art that Everyman and Everywoman can practise with benefit. It is in this form that aikido has become popular. (NOTE. I am NOT saying that the art was somewhow diluted in quality.)

    3. There are at least two consequences of this historical development. They were there right from the beginning but perhaps were not seen for what they are. I have distinguished them, but they cannot really be separated.
    (a) Insofar as aikido is a physical activity, it obeys the laws of physics. Thus, to say that the Founder's techniques will never be surpassed seems like saying that no one will ever better the 4-minute mile. What on earth is there to stop a future martial arts genius from coming along and utilising skills learned from cross-training, skills very much like the Founder himself acquired in his own time and in his own way?
    (b) The second consequence is aikido is a political activity. Right from the Kobukan years, it followed the pattern of organisations which 'fragment' with the arrival of the second and future generations. When I say 'fragment' I mean that the disciples each took from the Founder a portion of his 'charisma', to use Weber's phrase, but not the whole. Thus, when an aikido instructor states that "I was an uchi-deshi of O Sensei", it means that the person had a ring-side seat, so to speak, and was given the chance to absorb as much of the Founder's 'teaching' as he could. It does NOT mean that his techniques are any better than those of someone who was not an 'uchi-deshi'. And so on through the generations. Thus aikido is no different from other political activities where the problem is to discern charisma (= quality) within, or outside of, a structure.

    4. When I state that aikido will tend to lose its historical/Japanese roots, I should also state that I do not intend any value judgement here, though people will, of course, want to make value judgements. I am sure that the Japanese will want to hang on to their position at the top of the structure they have created and will use the iemoto system and the dan system in order to do so. On the other hand, aikido will come under much closer scrutiny from people who are not awed by the Japanese cultural baggage it presently has. I would think that this scrutiny is more likely to come from outside Japan, as more and more non-Japanese become really good at aikido and progress up through the dan system (of course, the two are not the same). Thus the type, for want of a better word, of aikido one wants to practise is likely to become more a matter of individual choice.

    Perhaps I have a much longer-term view than one appropriate for the next 30 - 40 years. And I am not at all pessimistic, by the way.

    Best regards to all
    _____________
    P A Goldsbury,
    Graduate School of Social Sciences,
    Hiroshima University
    Last edited by P Goldsbury; 16th December 2001 at 03:29.

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    "There were no post-war uchi-deshi."

    This one flies in the face of all I've learned over the years. I've developed a deep and serious respect for Mr Goldsbury, so this does not challenge his statement. I'm genuinely interested in learning more about this. Would anyone care to clarify or add to it?

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    Originally posted by Gil Gillespie
    "There were no post-war uchi-deshi."

    This one flies in the face of all I've learned over the years. I've developed a deep and serious respect for Mr Goldsbury, so this does not challenge his statement. I'm genuinely interested in learning more about this. Would anyone care to clarify or add to it?
    Hello Gil,

    I was expecting someone to pick this up, since it was a rather blunt statement. Here is the background.

    A few years after I started aikido, one of my teachers (who entered the Aikikai Hombu in the late 50s) declared that he had been "an uchideshi of O Sensei". When I came to Hiroshima, my teacher poured scorn on this notion. He bluntly stated (in his best Hiroshima-ben), that many "uchideshi of O Sensei" at best carried his bags when he went to teach somewhere and were no more "uchideshi" in the full sense of the word than "you or I".

    So, at dinner in connection with an IAF meeting, I found myself sitting next to Kisshomaru Doshu and I asked him just who were O Sensei's uchideshi. His answer was simple: the only uchi-deshi of the Founder were people like Rinjiro Shirata who were in the Kobukan before the war. Kisshomaru Doshu also stated that he himself had no uchideshi. I was somewhat stunned by the answer, but accepted it as coming right from the top, so to speak.

    More recently, I had occasion to discuss the matter with Arikawa Sensei. He agreed that there were no postwar uchideshi, but thought that the matter was partly one of terminology. He suggested that the one disciple of O Sensei and Kisshomaru Doshu who was was an uchideshi in all but name (in the strict, prewar designation) was Nobuyoshi Tamura. Those who came after Tamura Sensei were clearly special students of Kisshomaru Doshu, but they were closer to the presentday special students of Moriteru Doshu than to O Sensei's prewar students like Shirata Sensei.

    What is a westerner to make of all this? Clearly names and status matter very much here in Japan. I have been in conversation with some presentday Hombu instructors and, when certain eminent senseis came up in the conversation, there is a declaration, almost of triumph, "but X was not an uchideshi". "He was a kayoi-deshi" (M Saito), or "he ran the office" (M Fujita). The title, or lack of it, says nothing about the closeness of the relationship these teachers had with the Founder. If you think of the years Morihiro Saito Sensei spent in Iwama, training on the days his job with JNR allowed, I do not think it matters very much whether he was strictly an uchideshi or not.

    Nevertheless, Kisshomaru Doshu's comment to me is still true.

    I hope this clarifies the matter. Feel free to ask or comment if it does not.

    Best regards,
    _____________
    P A Goldsbury,
    Graduate School of Social Sciences,
    Hiroshima University

  12. #12
    Jerry Johnson Guest

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    Mr. Goldsbury,

    Thank for your posts. Your post's have provided a wealth of information concerning my inquire.

    I found your first post in this thread to be very interesting. For example, in points 3.a. and 4. They demonstrated very complex issues faced by Aikido and possibly other Japanese martial arts as well.

    How these issues are resolved or formulated in Aikido's future will be very interesting to see. Because Aikido has such world wide popularity, any change in Aikido may be a possible catalyst for change for other Japanese martial arts. That is, it may be possible that a non-Japanese with tremendous skill and talent will challenge the Japanese structure and lead Aikido in the future. Which may cause other arts to follow. Of course this may be a great challenge to do, and be something in the far future. Clearly, not something of the near future, as you pointed out
    the Japanese will want to
    hang on to their position at the top of the structure they have created and will
    use the iemoto system and the dan system in order to do so.
    Also, is it possible that non-Japanese maybe would not want or be ready for a non-Japanese to take the helm. Thus, supporting the Japanese to hang on to their structure?

    Now all this is only my own speculation, so please feel free to provide any criticisms of my speculation.

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    Originally posted by P Goldsbury


    Kisshomaru Doshu also stated that he himself had no uchideshi. I was somewhat stunned by the answer, but accepted it as coming right from the top, so to speak.

    More recently, I had occasion to discuss the matter with Arikawa Sensei. He agreed that there were no postwar uchideshi, but thought that the matter was partly one of terminology.
    _____________
    P A Goldsbury,
    Graduate School of Social Sciences,
    Hiroshima University
    Professor Goldsbury,

    Obviously your sources are impeccable -- which simply leaves me wondering just what "unit of terminology" we should use for post-war live-in students at Aikikai Hombu Dojo.

    Something tells me "sengo-deshi" isn't likely to fly.....

    Best regards,

    Fred Little

  14. #14
    hix Guest

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    Hello,
    I`m a new member. Yoroshiku Onegaishimasu.

    I guess the best way is to jump in.

    The comments by Professor Goldsbury are very interesting to me. I moved to Japan, specifically Ibaraki, to study Aikido. I had no idea about the different associations. I just found the highest level teacher in my area and joined.

    As for the future of Aikido, I see it as stated above, with more organizations, splitting, etc.

    In one sense, I believe O`sensei achieved his goal. He brought many people together all over the world in search for harmony with their fellow man.
    All I truly know is that every moment of practice or contact I have experienced in relation to Aikido, has helped me grow as a human.
    As long as Aikido brings this feeling to it`s students, I believe it`s purpose is fulfilled.

    There will always be the question of purity. This is something that is already an issue. It will grow as time passes. I guess it`s up to us.

    Thanks for reading,

    Jon

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    Jon,

    First off, welcome to E-Budo. One of our hard and fast rules here at E-Budo is that we sign all of our posts with our full names. You can either do this manually or you can setup a signature. Thank you in advance for your help with this.

    Speaking of Ibaraki, I will be in Tomobe for a few days at the end of the year. I have always thought that Saito Sensei (one station from Tomobe) has some very interesting points to make in regards to the historical aspects of Aikido. Well worth the time to check out his dojo if you can.


    Chad Bruttomesso

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