Views of Sanchin Kata

[Joseph Svinth]

No, Dong does not refer to any Japanese styles, he's simply showing some elementary movements from his own system. But if it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck, then what the heck.

For Bill Reuter, sanchin was a breathing exercise. Period. Other than that, it was simply one and two and step and turn. Mr. Arakawa, on the other hand, would walk around trying to off-balance you. Sometimes he'd push hard; other times he'd pull ever so lightly. One time he would reap osotogari, another time he'd stop an apparently full-power strike to the stomach a quarter inch away. Almost aikido -- he'd see where the balance wasn't, and go there. For his part, Teruo Chinen walked around slapping you on the shoulders, whacking you in the back or stomach, or kicking to the inside of the legs. It was solid contact, but nothing like in Kyokushin Kai, where people seemed to think that sanchin was practice in being a human makiwara.

For what it's worth, Kanryo Higashionna reportedly had a trick where he invited people at festivals and sumo matches to grab hold of him, and then try to pull him out of position. Evidently he was pretty good at holding his place, too. And even today, sanchin can do fairly well at open tournaments, provided the person doing it has the upper body physique suitable for public display without a shirt. At one tournament I recall, a female bodybuilder took her jacket off for sanchin, just like the guys. She was wearing a halter top so that you could see the muscular definition, and the kata definitely drew the crowd. Got second, too, as I recall.

[Joe Paden]

Mr. Blesford,
I'm sorry you havent heard of chinkuchi. It is very real-or it is as taught to me. My
Sensei studied on Okinawa between 58-63, 65, 69-71, 75 and takes trips two to three
times a year to study martial arts and its culture. He studies with Isshin-ryu Seniors,
Shorin, Goju, Uechi, Hindiandi, and Ryu Kon Kai kobudo and others.

I really dont think he made up the term chinkuchi, he knows why almost every move was
included and when it was incorporated into Isshin.

I hope I misinterpreted your post.

Joey Paden
Maryland Isshinkai

[CEB]

Originally posted by Mark J Brelsfor


From my learning overseas and again this is what I have learned,
not being right or wrong, there is no tactical application for sanchin. Sanchin is viewed strictly as a developmental training drill, to develope power, speed and technique. I had heard this from many senior teachers in Okinawa and not just in Uechi.

There are tactical applications for all the movements in kata Sanchin but since all the techniques of kata Sanchin are repeated in our kaishu kata there is no need to emphasize them when teaching Sanchin. I believe this way we can dedicate Sanchin strictly for the purpose of foundation building. No need to worry about the WHY. Just focus on the WHAT. Correct feet, correct posture and weight distribution, correct breath and muscle coordination ect.... The WHY does not matter if you can't do the WHAT correctly. ( The above represents my personal views and are no way meant to be representative of any formal ryuha and probably didn't make sense anyway because of my poor wording.)

I'm curious about Uechi Ryu. In Goju Ryu Sanseiru, Shisochin, Seisan, Suparunpei, and in some cases Tensho start with 3 sanchin strikes. I guess Uechi Ryu practices Seisan and Sanseiru. Does Uech Ryu versions of these forms also start with 3 Sanchin strikes? Just curious.

Good topic. Happy holidays and take care.

Ed Boyd

[Mark Brelsford]

Hello,

Ed...

Seisan has the three strikes in the opening sequence, not sansei ryu. Ed where or from who did you learn that sanchin has tactical aps....just wondering.

Joe...

I do not believe I said I never heard that term, I believe. I just find it interesting how many folks stateside find these terms, romantic. Further I never said I never met your teacher either.

Again, I base my knowledge on thing I have seen and folks I have talked to overseas. These are my views and what was explained to me in talks with some fairly senior folks in Okinawa.

Just a thought.....

Mark J Brelsford

[CEB]

Originally posted by Mark Brelsford


Ed where or from who did you learn that sanchin has tactical aps....just wondering.

From my seniors. If you are looking for a direct line of tranmission from the far east, I don't know what to tell you. Our dojo has been around since the 60's. Dojo was Yamaguchi Goju Kai. Somewhere in the 70's we became a group of Goju Kai refugees. Early 80's became affiliated with Goju Ryu Karate Do Kyokai under Yamakura Motoo however the nucelus of the GKK were originally from the Izumikawa Kanki line so I there may be some influence from that branch of the tree. Few years ago dojo started doing Jundokan Goju Ryu. The head instructor of our dojo became inactive and the most senior student decided we should drop our GKK affiliation. Out of loyalty to Mr. Yamakura I remain in GKK but still train with the dojo so I have to be up on the Okinawan versions of the kata.

Probably not the explanation you expected but one that I expect is pretty common in the states. Since its inception Karate has been a very eclectic art.

As far as me personally, I don't go back that far. Only been doing karate since Tuesday.

Been shown apps from three seperate sources and they were amazingly the same. I teach these techniques but not as Sanchin apps per my previous post.

Take Care and have a good holiday season.

Ed Boyd
Springfield IL

[Mark Brelsford]

Ed,

Interesting background, to say the least.

Like I mentioned in my previous post....
This seems to be comman, as you said stateside. No wonder there is such confussion in certain areas.

Since its inception Karate has been a very eclectic art.
As far as me personally, I don't go back that far. Only been doing karate since Tuesday.

Not to be rude, but it seems so..... in your area do people actually pay money and do they understand what they are getting? I need to move to your area!!!!

Interesting.....

Mark J Brelsford

[Daniel Kogan]

Mr. Svinth mentioned that "Higaonna says that you inhale during the downward movement and exhale during the upward movement" is this truely what Morio-sensei teaches. I'm sorry to put people on the spot, but is this accurate? I guess my question is "can someone point me to a source, video or written where Morio-sensei says this, or is this what somebody thaught they heard or understood from speaking to him?" Sorry to be so frank, no dis-respect intended.

Some one else asked about "chinkuchi" although it is true that in North america the only schools I've ever heard use this word in thier daily training are the Isshin-ryu people, particularly Advincula sensei's group. This is not to say that on Okinawa it not used. Although it is rare, and typically used by older "hogen" speaking teachers.

My sensei uses the word "chinkuchi" when refering to the natural "locked" body katachi or postures. It is the point at which an externed arm, stance, etc...is in the position where one attains the most strength or power with the least effort. For example tsuki chinkuki is -horizontal to the ground, shoulder blade pushed back, lats locked down and shoulders rolled forward. this is not to say there aren't other ways to execute a tsuki, but that this position in neither more easily pulled nor pushed, raised nor lowered. This is the best "return on investment" as it were for this technique. This is one of the keys to sanchin, it teaches posture, body locking with minimal effort, and still being mobile.

As for Mr. Belsfor's comment about the lack of naming techniques in Okinawan dojo, I would have to agree. My sensei usually say "do the techinique as in such and such kata". Rarely using a Japanese name for a technique. And often having various names for a techinique. Since he is speaking in his native language he doesn't worry about naming things, rather he desdcribes then. I think an example might server best. In English a student would understand if you said, forward leaning stance, front stance, long stance, etc... But for some reason ( I suspect the reason is most people don't speak Japanese and can only remember a limitted amount of Japanese vocabulary) will always say "Zenkutsu-dachi". I think this is normal in any dojo on Okinawa or overseas, except those in Japan. The Japanese like to structure and classify all things. It is no wonder they label each karate technique when you consider that they have adobted "naisu-shoto" as an official term in TV golf broadcasting, it is "nice shot" and is official "golf vocabulary", that should put things in context as far a how the Japanese laberl things versus the Okinawans tend to describe them.

Well I rant and find myself far off topic hope this helps a little.

Daniel Kogan
Shinjinbukan

[Mark Brelsford]

Dan,

Excellant points............. well said.

A bit of trivia, it ws only until the mid 70's that many of the techniques used in Uechi got there names........

Mark J Brelsford

[CEB]

Originally posted by Mark Brelsford
Ed,

Interesting background, to say the least.


Not to be rude, but it seems so..... in your area do people actually pay money and do they understand what they are getting? I need to move to your area!!!!

Interesting.....

Mark J Brelsford

Not to rude my butt. You come off as being very rude and I am sorry I got involved I this conversation.

I didn't say what Tuesday I began karate. It was a Tuesday in July of 1974. And I have trained under some of the finest teachers in North America. Just trying for some light hearted humor, guess it doesn't come across well. Sorry. I won't take up anymore of your time.

[Joe Paden]

Mr. Blesford,
You wrote:

<<Joe...

I do not believe I said I never heard that term, I believe. I just find it interesting how many
folks stateside find these terms, romantic. Further I never said I never met your teacher either.>>

Have you met my Sensei?

Joe Paden

[Mark Brelsford]

Joe Pedan,

I have met him on one of his visits to Okinawa.... I believe it was in the mid 80's or so.

CEB,

Thank you for your input

M J Brelsford

[Wu Wei]

I have always trained both areas within Sanchin - including the application. It's been taught to me that is a distilled version of every other movement in the other katas hence the line "Everything is in Sanchin." Especially with the Uechi version being more distinct in the multidirectional nature of the Wa-uke block, it covers each direction and/or movement the hand and arms can cover while the crescent stepping and Sanchin turns have all the low kicks implicit within them.

[Victor]

Just some thoughts on 'Chinkuchi'.

It is not a commonly used term even in Isshinryu, but one of my instructors, in 1971, training in Okinawa was taught it and the underlying training by Isshinryu's founders son.

I believe the description given by Mr. Kogan is essentially correct.
Isshinryu is not alone in this tems use. If you refer to volume 1 on Goju Ryu Karate Kata by Hiagonna, he also defines the term 'Chinkuchi'. Making its inclusion within Isshinryu very likely from Shimabuku Tatsuo's training under Miyagi.

IMO, the use of terms alone gives you little. You don't get 'Chinkuchi', you are trained in a personal manner by someone who refers to a large group of simultaneous activities you're engagin in as developing your 'Chinkuchi'.

Terms always cause 'trouble' for those who haven't undergone the same training you have. For example I'm sure many good Goju instructors are teaching the same personal Sanchin development whether they use the term or not, and actually not using terms is an older Okinawa tradition (as many such as Dan Smith of Seibukan) have reported repeatedly.

But terms can be useful training beginnners. You may tell someone to put their 'hips' into a punch, where at a higher level of understanding you may refer to their 'Torso movement' and at still a higher level of understanding you realize it is actually an entire body symphony needed to actually describe what goes into a good punch.

In a similar manner you may train someone to punch only by placing their punch in a specific spot on a partners body. That is actually more accurate than telling them to punch to the 'Solar Plexus' and letting them flail somewhere in the air.

Then try going to a Doctor (MD's) office and gasping as you tell them you were nailed in the Solar Plexus. Understanding common usage of terms they would know what you beilve you're describinb, on the other hand if they were Dr. Harper MD, FACS whose in my classes he's likely to pull out "Gray's Anatomy" and demand you prove it...... and you CAN'T for there is no anatomical structure called the Solar Plexus in it.

Gray's is a very complex, detailed work looking at the actual physical mechanisms of the body, and I guess they were asleep the day they printed it because they didn't find the Solar Plexus as a real physical mechanism.

So words are useful, or not, depending how you use them.

Sort of like Sanchin Kata. Personally I do tons of application of Sanchin Kata technique, have done so for decades, and teach them to my students.

Who taught them to me, nobody, just like when I studied nobody taught any applications. It simply seemed to me that Sanchin contains karate technique and I can apply any karate technique, or should be able to.

I didn't have anybody telling me thay you can't 'bunkai' Sanchin so I did, do and will continue to do, a Do-Do I guess.

OOOOOOps, I guess I created a faux pas....sorry.

It's just I find the applications of Sanchin as useful as the applications of Seisan, etc. So much so I don't care whether others belive I should do so or not.....

But then again, I believe Chinkuchi exists, as my instructor taught me too.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu
www.funkydragon.com/bushi

[kusanku]

As I said, I have heard the term chinkuchi used in Isshinryu, and if it also is in Goju, half of Isshin is Goju, not surprising.

Also, as to tactical applications being in sanchin, two arguments should suffice, one is the essential or higher, the other the substantial or lower and specific.

First, the essential: sanchin contains an opening and closing movement that has been taught as combat effective from many katas,it contains a stance that has combat applications, steps that likewise do, and blocks, punches, thrusts and slices, and finally a wa uke or toraguchi or mawashi uke that contains within it all potential hand movements,and it thus is its own greaterst proof for having applications. The fact that many have also mentioned that these moves from other kata have applications, is recognition of this:sanchin, ipso facto, has combat applications.

Next, the substantial and speicific argument:In China,where sanchin comes from and still exists, it is said, 'All is in sanchin(or saam chien, or san zhan).I first heard that from Uechi Ryiu exponent George Mattson's book 'The Way Of Karate', he heard it from Kanei Uechi and Ryuko Tomoyose who heard it from Kanbun Uechi who said he ehard it in China.

Thus it is stated as axiomatic that all of karate is contained in seed form in the kata sanchin.

But we have even more than this:We have the Tai Chi Clasics. Now, I am not the first or only person to compare Uechi Ryu, sanchin and tai chi.Georger Mattson did this in his Master Text of Uechi Ryu, and some others, Robert Campbell and also John Thurston to name two, have done so. Its a contrast, as Taichi teaches relaxation to control tension, and Uechi does the opposite. Yet when it comes to combat aps, the two styles agree.

This is because the Tai Chi classics detail all possible applications of all possibble movements in general terms.Thus every step can be a kick, a sweep, a trip, a hook or other leg maneuver, especially the cresent stepping of sanchin. By definition , a circle or arc of a circle potentially contains all degrees of movement.Levels and heights can change to meet circumstances.

The circle blocks and thrusts, the two handed movements and the wa uke, as well as the open and close,all have similar multilayered purposes. This purely from applicational standpoints.

Were applications taught on Okinawa in any style? Yes.But not to everyone.And not necessarily the same ones, the same way, even from the same teacher.

Are they taught there now? I do not know.

Are they taught in China?Yes. Books, videos and teachers do teach these there and here.Is this a bandwagon thing? Not fully, many Chinese texts explaining basic to advanced applications of forms do exist.Some are from early 1900's to mid 1930's, some earlier and some later.Its not something new.,Again, we have Tai Chi master Yang Ch'eng Fu and his students to thank for much of this, also others.

The Bubishi shows that karate apps from kungfu were known and taught in Okinawa, but not to all.

How much was taught in Uechi Ryu? You would have to ask Toyama Seiko Sensei, Ryuyu Tomoyose Sensei, and others, many whom are passed on, to know this for sure.I do not know. I believe that it may be that the combat applications of sanchin in Uechi Ryu are to be found, as some have written, in seisan,and sanseiryu katas.

That is one way of looking at it.But that the kata does not have any combat applications, is a ridiculous proposition, no offense meant.

Regards to all,

[Joseph Svinth]

Daniel --

Sanchin is shown on the videos called Okinawa Goju Ryu Karate-do by Morio Higaonna (Brisbane, CA: JP Trading, 1985) and Okinawan Goju-Ryu Karate by Kuniyuki Kai (San Clemente, CA: Panther Productions, 1982). The breathing techniques are described in the first two volumes of Traditional Karatedo: Okinawa Goju Ryu by Morio Higaonna (Tokyo: Minato Research/Japan Publications, 4 volumes, 1985-1990). See also Okinawan Goju-Ryu: The Fundamentals of Shorei-Kan Karate by Seikichi Toguchi (Burbank, CA: Ohara Publications, 1976).

Higaonna's fifth book does a pretty good job of documenting the stylistic roots of Goju. You can get that through Dragon/Tsunami.

Ed --

Yamakura's book, Goju-Ryu Karate-Do (Lambertville, MI: Goju-Ryu Karate-do Kyokai, 1989), is good. I haven't seen his videos; are they as good? (For those of you interested in buying copies, visit Yamakura's site, http://www.goju.com . I have never been a member of his organization, so this is an unsolicited plug. Warning: This Yamakura's style is Goju Kai [e.g., Japanese] rather than Goju Ryu [e.g., Okinawan], and as a result his stances are higher and narrower than Okinawan Goju Ryu stylists will be used to. If you fight from cat rather than sanchin, and don't allow much belly-bumping, tripping, or grabbing during randori, then the reason for these higher stances becomes obvious. However, such explanation implies bunkai in elementary kata. [It is basic pedagogical theory that introductory methods serve as a fundamental for more advanced techniques.] But Mark has already established that elementary kata are nothing more than one and two and step and turn. Therefore the real reason for the differences between Japanese and Okinawan Goju shall probably always remain a mystery.)

On an unrelated topic, I'd guess that your local split from Goju Kai happened sometime around 1975-76. Am I right? If so, and you're interested, drop me a line and I'll tell you my theory on why Gosei quit having much influence on North American Goju after 1974. (I can't prove it; it's just a hunch. Thus my saying write me offline.)

John --

"Kata makes the hours go by and the money come in." The gentleman who spoke those immortal words is due to visit Seattle in March, so if you're in the neighborhood, well, drop on by.