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Thread: 'Bokken' by Dave Lowry.

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    Question 'Bokken' by Dave Lowry.

    Hello all,
    I asked this question in the media section but thought that I would have more luck here..
    Does anyone know wether the Kumitachi techniques shown in 'Bokken' are Yagyu Shinkage Ryu techniques? If not could you tell me where they are from?
    I think that I have seen something like them demonstrated as Shinkage Ryu but I could be wrong.
    I know that I can contact Lowry Sensei through Koryu books but as the book is a good one to own for both Kendo and Kenjutsu practitioners I thought that an answer here would be best.
    Domo arigato gozaimashita.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

  2. #2
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Ben

    1. They are not Yagyu Techniques
    2. The book was written earlier in his "Aikido" years.
    3. No I wouldn't consider the book a good one For kenjutsu


    I think if you want to learn Kendo you should get a Kendo teacher(s)- then buy books
    I think if you want to learn Kenjutsu; get a Kenjutsu teacher; forget the books

    This is no reflection on Dave Lowry at all. Without going into detail- lets just say you couldn't do that stuff where I come from.
    Insert anyone elses name or ryu and my comments would still apply; whatever their endevour.

    All that said-Buy the book!......haha. Seriously.
    I bought it, along with several hundred others both good and bad. Its nice to know whats out there for comparison. As long as people don't do it and think they're "doing it."

    Although its a distinctly upopular opinion, I am not much for cross training in things all over the spectrum. People think they can take choice pieces of beef from this or that and mix it together and get gourmet cuisine. In fact they usually wind up with " beef stew" which is the lowest grade of throw away beef. And thats where I see us headed.
    Filet or chuck

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 14th December 2001 at 15:52.

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    Thumbs up Thanks..

    Hello Dan,
    Thanks for replying..a couple of points that are worth mentioning here..
    First off..I already train in Kenjutsu with my Sensei and am not stupid enough to try and learn kata through a book..I was merely interested in the point..Not the learning. (although I can say that it should be pointed out as often as possible to new trainees that you really cannot learn from books alone).
    Secondly..I thought that Mr. Lowry started training in Yagyu Shinkage Ryu at the age of 16 or thereabouts. He also points out in the start of the book that he has trained in Shinkage ryu but does not mention a direct source for the kata he uses in the Kumitachi sections...Hence my questions on that point.
    Your comments are well recieved and I am not trying to score points here..(although I know it will look like that.I am sorry.) truly...I am only trying to get to the bottom of this...Thanks for your help Mr. Harden. Appreciated.
    Abayo.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Dear Mr. Sharples,
    On my way of of town for the weekend, pausing only long enough to shame my cohort down on the Food thread for their failure to answer a quiz of mine, when I noticed your inquiry about the training manual (a bit pretentious to call it a book) on aikiken I did some years ago.
    Nope, the kumitachi I demonstrated there are not at all related to YSR. They are ones I learned practising aikido; there are dozens of generic such exercises devoted more to polishing the principles of that art than they are to any kind of koryu "gori-teki."
    The manual was intended as a reference for aikidoka who wanted to spend more time with a bokken in their hands.

    I heartily concur with Mr. Harden's hortative advice to you on mixing and matching arts. It's a swamp from which few will emerge at any kind of worthwhile goal. Not sure to what stuff it is he is referring that couldn't be done where he comes from--I did a certain amount of growing up in the state where his byline says he hales and can't think of anything they do too much different--but he's dead on in his assertion books can't teach jack squat in terms of koryu or in modern budo. They are at best a handy reference for one already training, at worst, a pleasant distraction.

    Cordially,
    Dave Lowry

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    Wink isn't that a little redundantly superfluous?

    Dear Mr. Lowry:

    Isn't "hortative advice" a little redundant? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say, "hortative comments? The adjective would make more sense then, right?

    Wait! What am I saying? Dear God, where has this curmudgeonly circumbendibus come from?
    Forgive me,

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  6. #6
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Gees
    First Meik and Dianne correct our grammer- now David shoots five dollar words across the bow. What? are you getting itchy to write again...
    Please insert_ yes_ here.
    I have all of them, can't wait for another.

    I was merely using the "where I come from" to point out that in certain arts, (including my own) you wouldn't do several of the things being done in Mr. Lowry's book.
    That is also why I said you could swap names or ryu and it wouldn't matter. It isn't ryu or author specific.

    Ryu have their own way of doing things-belying the
    "universal principle"
    "it all looks the same to me"
    Dojo "tourists" comments.

    I cannot see Aiki-ken functioning likea Koryu
    I don't think Itto ryu is gonna look or move like TSKSR any time soon.
    And, while Yagyu ryu may have techiques that try to "undo" Hakka-no-tachi; I don't think they do it by tryng to "BE" TSKSR. They're just themselves wanting to be superior and all that...heh heh...
    To further his (well I guess mine too) point about books. Take Otake Sensei' books. Only a rube would think you're gonna learn the art from them. They are a prompt for things already studied.
    You can't even begin to learn Kata from them. There are movements missing in the photo sequences all over the place, not too mention all that was never even attempted to be shown.


    Hey Ben
    Yes Yes...I know that "you" know. We write to each other and a group of others. Therefore it is always nice to place things in perspective for the lurking crowd. As Nathan says....hortatively

    "Never tire of repeating. There are people who do NOT know these things and we need to share hard won and valuable advice."

    BTW
    Your point card is duly "punched." I threw mine out. They kept docking me everytime I opened my mouth.

    and Hey
    We've been yaking for years ...call me Dan.

    ***********

    Armon

    Hortative usually means encouraging, instructional
    So it isn't reduntant to use with "advice."
    I could tell you to go poop in your hat- that would not be hortative
    advice...and would most likely result in you trying to tie me in a knot.

    BTW, please don't poop in your hat..or mine


    Dan
    "Who's glad that Dianne, Meiks and Dave's books don't read like post grad dissertations."
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 15th December 2001 at 00:52.

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    Cool Thanks all..

    Hello.
    Thanks to all for clearing my comments up for me on the book..Mr. Lowry, thanks for pointing me in the right direction here and Dan...Thanks for your points. (I also agree that there is a responsibility to point out to any and all concerned that the thing to do is to get off the sofa, get to a sensei, and train! )
    Now...In a continuation of the points raised here..Aren't the Aikido kata with Bokken taken from Ueshiba Sensei's training in the T.S.K.S.R.? (Ducks as bottles aimed at head come flying from the audience!....Sorry..Only joking.)
    Thanks all.
    Ben.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    I think that Morihei Ueshiba studied Kashima Shinto-ryu not TSKSR. Some of the Iwama style kumitachi are near copies of Kashima Shinto-ryu kata. This was addressed in another recent thread here I think. FWIW, if my memory is correct, I think Kisshomaru also studied Kashima Shinto-ryu. Perhaps someone can verify that?

    Brently

  9. #9
    ctan Guest

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    Hi! In defence of Dave Lowry's book, I am relatively new to kendo and I've not really been able to locate a kenjutsu teacher here in Wisconsin, so there's no opportunity for me to "cross train" even if I'd wanted to. However, I've put in quite a bit of effort working at the techniques described in Mr Lowry's book and I've found that my kendo has improved quite significantly in at least two ways: (1), I have less of a tendency to go for the "hitting" movements to score points, and find myself more able to concentrate on the feeling of executing a "cut" with my shinai; my overall form has improved, and (2), my ability to carry out quick lateral dodges and counterattacks in jigeiko has also improved markedly. So, I do believe that, at least for relatively inexperienced practitioners, quite a bit can be gained from a well-written, well-explained book like Dave Lowry's.

    Best wishes,
    Chih Ming Tan

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    Cool Easy to follow...

    Hello.
    Yes..personally I found the book very easy to follow compared to other books on the same subject. That said it must be pointed out (Again!!) that there is no learning without a Sensei and the help they give you..I haven't much experience of Kendo but surely some of the cuts shown in Bokken cannot be used in Kendo (although I am unsure of all the 'rules').
    Bokken is what has been stated above...A book to be used in conjunction with professional teaching in Aikido training.. And since it is pointless relying on a book to learn alone it seems perhaps even more so to use it to teach a whole other style of 'Ken' (??)
    However..If you find it helps then thats cool..Just do not sulk when you find a Sensei who criticizes your Kendo! (The amount of times I learn one technique only to find that it is now "done more like this" re-inforces the theory that if you use a 'lifeless source' (or a Book) to learn from rather than a 'living source' (Or a Sensei) it can be difficult to 'relearn' it all...
    Good luck with your training.
    Abayo.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Mr. Harding,

    Actually, the current usage of hortative is more to "advisory." I don't have a dictionary handy, but maybe the etymology of the word is confusing you. The latin root of hortative (I can't remember off the top of my head, sorry) is to "yearn." Thus, the use of hortative as "encouraging." Current usage is more in line with "advisory." Btw, I didn't say "hortative advice" was perfectly redundant. Only that it wasn't as precise as "hortative comment," etc. Thus, it is "somewhat redundant."

    Finally, my comments were made in good humor - so you can go and poop wherever you like. Just stay away from MY hat.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  12. #12
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Arman

    I trust you realize my comments were in jest as well.
    BTW the names Harden, not Harding.

    Just call me Dan


    Hi Ya Brently
    A big Merry Christmas bud!

    The whole KSR and TSKSR topic is confusing with Ueshiba. Well come to think of it , so is the empty hand stuff YSR and DR.
    Supposedly he "sent" people to train in the former or else they sent teachers to his Dojo where they toaught his students, then they would show him; while he did the latter-personally.
    Don't know if any of it matters though. Nothing he does looks like anything he did.....Hah! There are those who call that "martial genious".... as he personally seemed to be.

    The art that remains?
    A little of this , a little of that, throw in this from over there....
    some call would call that Visionary, and indeed they have done so.
    Others would call it........beef stew.



    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 18th December 2001 at 18:20.

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    Dan,

    My apologies on mispelling your last name.

    Sincerely,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

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