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Thread: Koryu vs Gendai

  1. #31
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    Default Koryu vs Gendai

    Dear E-Budo Members:

    Without a lot of preface, let me suggest to you that we come up with a more sophisticated classification of koryu and gendai arts. Why? Because the current classifications are too problematic, and too vague.

    Generally speaking, as we all know, koryu arts tend to be classified as pre-Meiji arts, or pre-1868, that have maintained a strict (or conservative) adherence to the teaching and transmission of the curriculum. Gendai arts are generally classified as post-Meiji arts designed for a modern world (i.e. emphasis on mass instruction, unarmed "street combat," sport, or spiritual and philosophic instruction). Furthermore, gendai arts tend to be liberal in their approach to instruction and transmission, to varying degrees.

    My contention is that while this framework provides at least a line of demarcation between gendai and koryu arts, upon further analysis the line blurs, and eventually becomes nonsensical.

    For example, why is a koryu art classified as a koryu art? Is it the timeline? Well, sort of. Pre-Meiji arts that have maintained their curriculum in a fairly static fashion are anachronistic to a certain extent. Sword fighting is a rare occasion these days, but not unheard of. Naginata-duels, however. . . unfortunately, even more rare . But is this why the art is a koryu? Because it is an anachronism? I think not (more on this later).

    Then, is it the conservative nature of the koryu arts? Not really. While koryu arts are by definition conservative, this character is by no means exclusive to them. Furthermore, to put this in terms of simple logic, while conservatism is a necessary function of koryu arts, it is not sufficient. A= quality 'x'; B= quality 'y'. If A+B=C, then if follows that A or B alone does not = C.

    Well, then, is it the emphasis of koryu arts? Again, sort of. Koryu arts are conservative, and thus maintain a curriculum centered ("frozen" is too strong a word) in an older time. They are fragmentary reflections of a very different age, and thus focused on a type of warfare almost unheard of today. But this simply returns us to the paragraph above on anachronism. Do we really feel that the main difference between koryu and gendai arts is a function of combative style? Some may. Again, I think this misses the mark.

    What about all the accoutremants of koryu arts? Is the main difference the fact that koryu arts generally (though not always) do not use dan/kyu rankings, that progression in the art is generally recognized by the granting of a scroll indicating a level of proficiency rather than a colored belt? Of course not. Gendai arts could just as easily switch back to this older system, but this doesn't make them koryu, right?

    Right! I submit to you that the main difference between koryu and gendai arts is a state of mind, an overall philosophy that governs the instruction, the dissemination and the transmission of the relative arts.

    All of the characteristics listed above that differentiate koryu from gendai arts are epiphenomena. They are not the reasons for the difference, but the visible result of the difference. We use Meiji as a baseline because that is when a radical departure in thought (not just in the martial arts, obviously) occurred in Japan.

    I leave it to the Forum to argue what, precisely, defines this difference in philosophy. I don't want to suggest any one thing at this point, but what they might be are obvious, I think, from the epiphenomena listed above.

    What I do want to argue is that if what I am saying is correct (and I don't presume to be), then the ultimate conclusion is that the definition of koryu must be broadened. Unless one believes that a philosophical perspective is determinatively tied to a particular time, place or culture (which I don't believe), then it is possible for a martial art, in any timeline, to be considered koryu.

    Now, hold on a minute, friends! Put your fangs away for a moment. Let me say that the definition of koryu need not necessarily be broadened, but perhaps fragmented, dissassociated, split up into more refined elements. Specifically, two elements.

    Here is my suggestion:
    The definition of Koryu arts should be split up into:

    1) Traditional arts: These would be arts strictly defined as "old-style"/koryu Japanese arts, period (period). As such, any pre-Meiji art that has maintained its curriculum into the modern age would be classified as a koryu art. No art, no matter how closely related or influenced by a pre-meiji art, would be included here. This definition focuses only on time, not philosophy or curriculum. Thus, its primary function is for historical analysis and classification.

    2) Classical arts: This would be a broader category encompassing both koryu, gendai, and transitionary arts. The focus in these arts is precisely on philosophy, teaching and transmission. Inlcluded under this definition would be any art that adheres to whatever becomes accepted as defining the Classical philosophy of martial arts. Thus, modern arts may fall under here, but not under the Traditional category. Similarly, many Traditional arts would fall here as well, but many might not. There are a lot of good arguments for making this separation. Anyone who has studied "koryu arts" knows that not all "koryu" are the same. Now we have a rational method of delineating between them.

    3) Modern arts: This category stands alone, outside the two listed above. All arts that are post-Meiji (and thus not Traditional) and not Classical (as defined above), would be considered Modern. These are arts that maintain a modern philosophy of teaching and transmission. Included here are, of course, judo, aikido, karate-do, etc.

    These definitions would provide, I believe, a better method of classification, and a clearer basis for analysis and argument. For example, someone claims an art is thousands of years old but can't prove it? Well, how is it taught? What is the pedagogy, so to speak? How is the art passed on? What is the basis for determining progress and excellence? etc, etc. Perhaps you can't prove the art to be Traditional, but it may clearly be Classical.

    Also, these categories would help clear out some of the confusion of words such as "traditional martial arts," "classical martial arts," "koryu martial arts." Before, they all could have been considered synonymous, or not, or sometimes. Now, they would be distinct categories with clearly different meanings.

    Hopefully, we can get some thoughtful commentary on this framework. Maybe it needs to be modified, clarified, or even discarded.

    Carry on, Brothers and Sisters.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland
    Last edited by Arman; 28th December 2001 at 19:08.

  2. #32
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    The overview found here works just fine for me. Your mileage may vary.
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

  3. #33
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    I agree in prinicple with Arman and also the Skoss' (Koryu.com).

    However, with Arman's suggestions, it seems to put on an even tighter lid than what we have now.

    He is right that new terms are needed, but won't that come with time no matter what we do?

    As stated in the Koryu.com article and what Arman proposes, it is not conservative, it appears to be somewhat narrow minded in description (this is meant only in what Arman proposes and not the man, himself, please).

    Dr. Karl Friday (It's on E-budo but I couldn't find it with a quick search) has all ready stated that exact dates, no matter the societal limits only gives rise to newer bugei because even with the laws basically limiting or outlawing certain practices, we have come up (generic we) with, as an example, a distinct and unique approach to koryu technique and its symbolism. I am going to mention a couple of what are called here gendai or modern instead of classical: judo and kendo. Why?

    I'm a judoka, a long time one, with little spurts into other styles, and once it was a koryu study group of sorts (being the late sixties it was difficult to say exactly what it was, but the group was under the direction of a Japanese teacher in Japan).

    Kendo, I think is obvious though a kendo shiai is not close to the older schools of kenjutsu, and as I have little knowledge about it, I'll stay with Kodokan Judo, or Kodokan-ryu jujutsu, or jiudo. Whatever.

    This was the first taijutsu and weapons art to be taken apart and pieced together by various people, and is unique in that it was an academic who did so, along with trusted and talented students or peers.

    But the refinement of the jujutsu techniques were done, not to make something new, but to take the old an help it apply to what this is. Since Dr. Friday has stated the dates are not so precise, but that the more modern of them probably took hold, or the koryu arts stopped their developments and held what it was at the time all refinement stopped. Kano had other visions, as early as the later 1870s. He was very young, but his audience was truly international, as it included an ex-president of the US.

    So what Kano really did was not to take combat applications out of the other jujutsu arts, but instead made the old wartime techniques, and added a symbolic form of victory of one over the otherm stopping just short of battle field death, and gave them the symbolic victory by judgement and/or whether the opponent could continue.

    What came about was an old-style challenge not ending in bloodshed, death, or anything which would not have the shugyosha back for more training the next day. Shi-ni-ai is an apt description, but being at the verge of killing only to be stopped by a judge or by the incapacitation of one opponent.

    Koryu does something very similar as no one was supposed to die at another's hand either, but it did happen because of this lack of symbilism. Koryu could make it the same, but choose to do so in another manner other than randori or shiai.

    So when would it stop being a modern form of fighting and then become the "old school?" It does have the history for it, and lest you believe that the styles openness was what made it the modern form, the forms and inner, omote and ura were there for the rare student while the others fought each other in shiai matches. Kano said "one must go all out in practice just as he does in shiai."

    I do believe if Kano were born ten, twenty, even thirty years earlier this wouldn't be a necessary discussion.

    All that said, most couldn't care less what classification one puts judo into. Basically, one learns the jutsu, while striving for the Do, path, manner or way.

    It does make me wonder how old a "classical" bugei has to be to be included, how many students must occupy it, and in what manner, other than the strictist of category some take.

    Does the study of technique, so deeply that some of the kata only represent what the technique is made of, the mathematics of such, and what purpose do they serve. Would a koryu practitioner, empty handed or with weapon, dismiss this aspect of any art? Well, only the most stubborn I think would.

    Judo as koryu doesn't fit because of the randori no kata, and because anyone, everyone is invited, but in every open school, only the few will remain and learn, perhaps the Kitoryu no kata, as an example, but what does this mean?

    Best Wishes for the coming New Year to all.

    Regards,

  4. #34
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    Mark,

    You raise some interesting thoughts. I think Judo is an apt place to begin, for I believe it shows the clear distinction between, in the new classification proposed above, classical and modern arts.

    Judo, as devised by Jigoro Kano, was a radical departure from the past. Kano utilized scientific principles to advance a new art form that didn't rely on the conservative, inflexible, and sometimes esoteric strictures of the old schools. He had a philosophy, but also a radical vision of what martial arts should stand for. Physical and moral education, mass instruction, and clear, precise methods of instruction. It was, and is, a very modern, liberal curriculum (By "liberal" I mean Western Enlightenment political and ethical liberalism, NOT as in "left-wing" politics). As such, it was anti-elitist.

    The old style arts tended to be conservative not because they just thought it was fun to be stodgy, but because the old styles are very elitist (this is not a criticism, believe me, just an analytic statement). They are taught only to a few, and even among those who are taught, only an even smaller percentage receive high level instruction. And of these, maybe one or two will recieve a complete transmission of the art.

    Furthermore, instruction in the old styles tends to be based on observation, intuition, and the teacher's mood. It is quite anti-rational in the sense that there is no set method of clear instruction. The better to safeguard the true techniques of the art.

    That is why I would place Judo in the Modern category. In both time (non-Traditional), and philosophy (non-Classical), Judo is the essence of a Modern art. Of course, I think even under the current framework of simply "koryu" and "gendai" it is quite clear. Neverthless, I believe the Judo example demonstrates how the classification system I proposed above works nicely to clarify an otherwise murky process.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  5. #35
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Gentlemen

    The classical arts of Japan are part of that country's rich cultural heritage.
    I am sure, they are as unconcerned with your opinions as I am.
    They will tell YOU what they're going to do with their arts- thank you very much.

    I would no sooner offer an opinion of their country's classifications or uses of a cultural heritage then I would ask them to re-classify or reorginize our constitution and separation of powers.
    Nor do I see us asking them for a better way to represent the old traditional crafts shown in reinactment villages around various historical sites like Plymouth rock and Sturbridge village either.

    In other words; opinion not required.
    (But thanks for letting me be a part though. )

    I still have trouble with American "Sokes" its just too weird to me. Refuse it or give it back to them somehow.
    I don't care if we even get better at their own game than they are. It's still their culture not ours


    Dan
    I saw a Japanese Country music guy singing with a southern drawl once. I thought it was pathetic. Funny, but sad all the same.
    Ya might as well ask Britney Spears what she thinks of the details of an economic stimulus package........That would be just as valid. Hey wait.....The idiots in the media already do.
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 28th December 2001 at 23:47.

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    I saw a Japanese Country music guy singing with a southern drawl once. I thought it was pathetic. Funny, but sad all the same.
    Japan has a long tradition of absorbing foreign culture and making it their own. Kanji, sukiyaki, even origami came from abroad. In a couple of hundred years everybody will think that country music is a part of Japanese traditional culture .

    Best,

    Chris

  7. #37
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    Default Hey, nobody owns rights to culture...

    Right! Look what they've done with baseball...
    Go to Blockbuster this weekend and rent "Gung Ho" with Michael Keaton and Gedde Watanabe. Love that flick.
    Cady Goldfield

  8. #38
    Ben_Holmes Guest

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    Right! Look what they've done with baseball...
    Go to Blockbuster this weekend and rent "Gung Ho"
    No no no!! Go to Blockbuster and rent "Mr. Baseball" with Tom Selleck. That's a better illustration of your point!! (and funnier too!)

  9. #39
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    Default D'oh! You're right!

    Dang! [SLAPS FORHEAD] Forgot all about it.
    You're right -- great example, hilarious movie.

    Also, get the book, "You Gotta Have Wa" (forgot author's name) because that nails it right on the money.
    Cady Goldfield

  10. #40
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    Default Adaptability

    Greetings,

    The people of Japan are known for thier ability to adapt. Why can this country not do the same? Is it impossible for a select few (select few, because in this dollar oriented society only a few would be motivated enough and talented enough to do it) to take the Martial Arts to new limits?

    For those that scoff at this idea, remember the civil servant who advocated in ca. 1895 that the patent office should be closed as everything that could be invented, had been invented.

    Any thoughts? And btw, Mr. Baseball was on the money.

    Regards from down here in the 'hood.
    TommyK

  11. #41
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    Hmmm, this discussion has seemed to slip off point a little bit. I guess amorphous topics like style classification doesn't get the juices flowing like a good ol' fashioned flame post. Ah well. . .

    As for the cultural comment regarding style classification: It doesn't matter from whose culture the current classification scheme came from (if it can even be considered a cultural creation, which I somewhat doubt), any scheme should be open to revision for clarity of analysis and discussion.

    Also, I would hope we are not comparing the classification of martial arts schools as being to the Japanese as the U.S. Constitution is to Americans. The analogy is so completely misplaced (and just plain wrong) that I won't even get into it.

    BTW, I thought Mr. Baseball was quite entertaining as well.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  12. #42
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    I would tend to agree with Mr Harden.

    I dont think the thread is slipping off the point.

    The very fact that it exists seems to me to be a very Western approach to things. Why even bother to seperate them.

    A person with a trained eye looking at footwork, grip and many other things will soon tell you what period a certain art comes from.

    I feel there is far too much emphasis are trying to seperate things rather than bring them together to examine the similarities.

    This is an overall problem. If more people spent more time both in east and west examining the similarities and not the differences in all things, the gap would close somewhat.

    Hyakutake Colin
    Last edited by hyaku; 8th January 2002 at 04:31.

  13. #43
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    Hyaku,

    You raise an interesting, and complex, philosophical point. Much has been written about Western v. Eastern approaches to intellectual and analytical classification. Some of what has been written is good, a lot is pretty bad.

    In any case, I could only submit to your point by also agreeing that nearly all classification is useless. Koryu v. gendai, martial v. aesthetic arts, science v. religion. If I go too far in this direction, I will end up a Buddhist. I'm not ready for such enlightenment yet

    But I don't entirely disagree with you. Much of our classifications are not useful at an essential level, and in fact may be wholly illusory. I am, however, consciously classifying on a superficial level for discussion purposes.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  14. #44
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    Over the holidays I had the chance to catch up on some reading and one of the books I got through was an interesting one called “Enlightened Masters” and wile it’s not directly related it did have an interesting premise.
    Basically the book has an overview of European/American participation in Eastern religious traditions and a listing of Western teachers with short biographical sections. One of the author‘s premises is that Eastern religions have been historically isolated from each other and unable to grow or spread in their countries of origins, but in the West they have a chance to both spread and also be exposed to each other and this is unprecedented, invigorating, and impossible in their native context.
    I think this might be analogous to the asian martial arts and coincidentally occurs over the same time period (roughly turn of century to present).
    Worth checking out at your local library.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  15. #45
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    There are very few Japanese that are Buddhists with the exception of people like myself that make a living from it. A good description of Japanese Buddhism is Curry/Rice. Mild in flavour and made to suit Japanese taste

    They observe Shinto ceremony until coming of age, get married in a chapel and try to be good Buddhists as death approaches.

    Muhammad Ali recently described religion as rivers, ponds, lakes and streams. All with different names but containing water. Religions have different names but all contain some truth. This just about sums up the Japanese approach to religion. I have been asked many times why Westerners wish to specify and classify one particular religion and stick to it.

    Westerners religiously wash the car on Sundays now instead of going to Church. Japanese put their cars thought the carwash and just sleep the whole weekend.

    As I am rather well involved in very old and rather more recent budo I feel to classify it would be trying to split up my own research over the years. What was to me in the past separate entities have been brought together through continuous practice.

    The only interesting, complex thing I can think of is my wife. Japanese or Western some things never change!

    Hyakutake Colin

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