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Thread: Aikijujutsu in New York

  1. #46
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    Default Wow - don't you people ever train?

    What an interesting course of events. I thought the board would be safe over the weekend.

    Well, the private email that Mr. Hunt posted is not complimentary, but is really of the most concern to Jason Brinn. If there is a Jason Brinn, and he would like his name removed from the public post, email me a request:

    Moderator

    As Mr. Brinn has just found out, helping people on the internet is a great way to make new friends.

    I wonder why Mr. Hunt didn't have any problem with posting the sections of the supposed email that were about the regular contributors, but decided to use discretion about the comments regarding Mr. Popkin and Mr. Goldberg? Hmmm.

    Anyway, I'd be all for moving on with other discussions personally. For example:

    On a slightly different note, what is the point of discussing something with someone when neither person has a point of reference?
    This is a reasonable question. If you don't know who you are talking to (experience, ability and credentials), it makes discussions based on experience, teachings and opinion irrelevant. That is why, in light of the conservative nature of most of our regular contributors, discussions have ended up centering more on documented historical facts and issues (which can be referenced by those curious) and to some degree, those looking for qualified instructors.

    Opinions are typically noted as such, and value on such opinions is given weight based on the context of the opinion and the quality of the person's previous contributions. Some people are quick to jump to wild conclusions without any supporting evidence, while others demonstrate that they will not say anything authoritatively without a reasonable amount of supporting evidence.

    So, that is what we do here and why. Love it or leave it!
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 7th January 2002 at 21:28.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #47
    bigaikidoguy Guest

    Default hello

    hi,


    I chose to omit the info on Howard Popkin and Roy Goldberg because I spoke to Mr. Popkin and he seemed like a gentleman. He also told me that he used to train with Roy Goldberg, so I chose to omit that. Maybe that was an error.

    Nonetheless, this is for you guys to argue about, I am through with this!

    Take care,

    Michael

  3. #48
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    Default Much ado about nothing

    I'm not sure what all the fuss is about. Maybe Mr. Hunt is a phony trolling for gossip and trouble. On the other hand, maybe he isn't. In any case, what is it about DR in general that is so secretive and mysterious, or so conservative that people don't want to talk about it?

    There is a difference between discussing history and elements of an art open to the public, and not discussing other things. There are plenty of DR sources available to the public. I think with many arts, it is obvious there are certain things you don't discuss publicly: e.g., matters of specific technique, oral teachings, etc. I don't think Mr. Hunt was looking for such info. Even if he was, I don't believe any reasonable person would expect him to receive an answer.

    While I think a healthy scepticism to Mr. Hunt's post was warranted, all the other sarcastic comments do not place E-Budo in a very favorable light. Just point out your suspicion and point him to the source of general information. End of the issue. In fact, all the indirect sarcasm and hostility just invites Mr. Hunt, if he is a troll, to act more trollish (and post private emails, etc.).

    Sometimes it is better to be at least a little informative and polite in the face of uncertainty, rather than immediately dismissive.

    Just a thought,

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  4. #49
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    Mr. Hunt,

    FYI, it is considered extremely bad ettiquite to post a private email on the net. If I were you, and just found this out, I would go back, and edit the post, removing all of the offending material.

    A lot of people will not email you at all from this point forward, based soley on that fact alone. Having made a similar gaff once a long time ago, I can tell you personally that some have long memories, and will not forget that you did this. You are fortunate in that you can delete the "evidence of the crime", so to speak.

    It still does not leave a good impression.

    Good Luck,
    Ron Tisdale

  5. #50
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    Default

    Personally, I was just trying to verify his intentions based on the logic of his posts. His questions were actually answered early on, once by Cady who recommended the CWDRM book (the best single resource available in this regard) as well as a subscription to Aikido Journal, and another by Joe Svinth, who was nice enough to do the Google search for Mr. Hunt. Brently Keen and perhaps Jason Brinn also emailed him privately (well, sort of).

    All this despite the suspicious initial posting.

    Why not just tell him anyway because the information is publicly available? It's only available if you know where to look and who to talk to, and as Cady said, those that really want to study will be willing to make more effort to find contacts in the art than to simply wait for others to feed them via the internet. NOT to say people shouldn't ask on the internet, rather that most conservative groups do not want tourists passing through their dojo/art, and then borrowing what they think they know from the art to teach in their own open seminars.

    One of the few ways available for avoiding this is forcing prospective students to put forth the time, energy and sometimes expense to obtain the training information they say they desire. If they are not willing to search the web pages and buy any recommended books and videos, then they will probably not stay with or respect the art they are looking for. Hell, many koryu do not have books and videos to browse through or web pages.Or, if they do they have any books they are in Japanese and typically out of print, with expired contact information. That makes for good times.

    Mr. Partamian, as I'm sure you realize, there is not one "Daito ryu". The various branches issue their own ranks, structure their own curriculum and in some cases open branch dojo. Some DR branches publish books and videos, while some avoid even participating in interviews. Some branches do not want their address publicly published. I have heard of at least one instructor that did not want his name and address published in the back of CWDRM. It was apparently published without his permission or knowledge.

    Some branches are more open, and some are not. This is true of the various koryu dojo as well. It is not for us to judge whether they are reasonable or not. Those that are not willing to make the effort to find them and gain acceptance usually say "F'em if they don't want any students", and end up training somewhere that is more convenient and more open. This is probably the best thing for everyone.

    From what I'm told, the senior exponents of Daito ryu do not want their art exploited and spread recklessly around the world to anyone with a modem. Most of them are not enjoying the popularity of their art (much like TSKSR) and are waiting for the fad to die so that they may focus more on training and less on politics and loose lips.

    Hey, this makes for a small dojo, but, operating a small non-commercial dojo myself, this may be a considered a good thing.

    Everyone needs to find the art and instructor that is right for them.

    Like I said, lets move on. If Mr. Hunt is sincere and of good character, he will find what he's looking for eventually, and it will be equal to the patience and effort he puts forth (well, sometimes luck comes into play too).

    "Serious student" is a relative term.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 8th January 2002 at 02:18.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  6. #51
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    Mr. Scott,

    I agree, 'nuff said about Mr. Hunt.

    You mentioned, however, that senior exponents don't want DR exploited and spread by, or to, anyone with a modem (paraphrasing you here).

    I fail to see how this is really possible. Nobody can learn DR, or any other art for that matter, without studying under an authentic teacher. Nobody can join a dojo without gaining permission from the teacher. And nobody with any brains will listen to someone with no credentials BS about how much he really knows about this or that art. Finally, no one can really steal technique from a book, a tape, and especially not from the internet. Not true technique, anyway.

    I do agree with you, however, that we should respect schools that don't want publicity. No problem here. Certain information on teacher availability, school locations, phone numbers, students, etc. should all be privileged information.

    On the other hand, I don't agree that we should refrain from discussing an art or school because that school doesn't want us discussing it. Where would that leave historical analysis, lineage authentication, or just plain thoughtful discussion? I am immediately suspicious of people who won't even discuss their teacher's credentials or their school's history because of "publicity concerns."

    Finally, I am at a loss to understand how general publicity or interest in a particular art somehow threatens the art, or prevents serious study of the art by students? The integrity of an art is protected by the teacher and the students. It doesn't matter what is written on a web BB. The fact that more people are inquiring about an art that some would like to keep more secluded doesn't strike me as a serious threat.

    For example, let's say I am interested in a few different koryu. Let's imagine I could organize an association of hundreds, or thousands, of like-minded people interested in a particular style. We look on the internet for schools, talk to friends and colleagues, research on our own, etc. Turns out, the only place to study is in a little village in Hokkaido, and they don't accept foreigners. How have I threatened that art? Or prevented those students in Hokkaido from seriously studying the art without distraction?

    Now, I suppose if hundreds of us showed up banging on the dojo door, that would be a distraction (though no real threat, unless we are also carrying pitchforks and torches). But how likely is this scenario? Not very.

    My point is, a lot of this "concern" is much ado about nothing. We can protect the integrity of an art without being too concerned about its internet publicity. As students, we should all work to prevent the spread of privileged knowledge and misinformation. But perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to worry about the spread of good information. Sometimes this is a better way to protect the integrity of an art than not.

    Sincerely,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  7. #52
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    Arman,

    As has already been mentioned, exponents of particular schools won't participate in discussions about their schools and systems due to the conservatism of their ryu, and out of respect for the requested privacy of their senior-level teachers. Many of those teachers are pure artists in their craft, and are not interested in spreading the craft so much as they are in "perfecting" their own skills.

    So, while there is nothing to prevent you and other forum participants from discussing those schools, teachers and arts, such discussions will be limited because none of the actual exponents of those schools and arts will be contributing.

    Think of the guilds of medieval Europe. Trade secrets were jealously guarded, members had to remain loyal to their guild, and would-be apprentices formally applied to a guild, often needing a letter of introduction or patronage of a member. Guild members of course wanted to prosper in their respective trades, but there also was a pride and sense of ownership in the hard-won and hard-learned methods of their craft. It wasn't given away, nor given easily.

    The arts we've been referring to here are very precious to its practitioners... not for monetary gain, of course; there is none (there isn't even rank in some of the schools) ... but for the depth and pure brilliance of their principles and content. Can you blame the seniors for being chary about casting their pearls?

    As for your wondering about how publicizing an art can negatively affect it, consider what happens to an obscure restaurant that has been "discovered" and given a great review by a big-city newspaper reporter. Before you know it, this little, hidden-away place, treasured by its neighborhood patrons, has a line a quarter-mile long going out the door, as folks from out of town come to see how special it is. Some are sincerely in search of a true "dining" experience, while others are just looking for the latest fad in dining. Meanwhile, the locals can't get a table at their favorite place, traffic is hellacious, and the quality of the food and service go down because the restauranteur can't handle such a huge mob. Next thing you know, the johnny-come-latelies who caused the decline in quality start saying, "huh? this place ain't so special," and never come back. The locals reclaim their restaurant, and if the proprietor hasn't had a nervous breakdown and sold the place to a big conglomerate, maybe the place will go back to its previous level.

    Come to think of it, there's a wonderful restaurant near our dojo, a real "gem in hiding," and I'll be damned if I ever tell a soul in Boston about it. Just as I don't broadcast to the world about the dojo.

    Internet forums are not places to share intimate knowledge or details. As Dan said, why would you give away valuable things to total strangers, whose integrity you know nothing about? Would you give away your home address, your wife's cellphone number or your kids' school location on the Internet? Even though this site attracts a lot of decent folks, I'd sure as heck be cautious about talking about anything that I value deeply. Even if it only pertains to some obscure art.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cady,

    I don't think we have much of a disagreement. Your points are exactly the ones I covered in my post above.

    Yes, such things you mentioned should be kept private. Still think it unlikely that publicity will kill the cook. Still don't understand how discussion will give away pearls of precious wisdom discovered through hard and serious training.

    As for medieval guilds, I'm no medieval scholar, but guilds were generally not secretive about their existence, or their profession. Membership was also not a secret. Everyone knew who the merchant guilds were and who belonged to them. Membership was strictly regulated, and secrets of craftsmanship were guarded. Analagous things in the martial arts that I also approve of keeping secret.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  9. #54
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    Good point about the guilds; you're right. But then, they benefited from publicity because they were first and foremost in their crafts to make a living.

    To be honest, I don't fully understand "secret membership"; however, I do believe that much of it has to do with the preferences and concerns of individual senior exponents, and their student's desire to "do what's right." We can appreciate that some ryus' seniormost exponents have requested this of their students and, hence, of their students' students and so forth. IMO, it is not for students to question, if adhering to that protocol is one of the provisions of their receiving the privilege of training.

    Again, it's up to the head of a given ryu to decide what is acceptable. Some koryu headmasters have in fact determined that it's okay, and beneficial to the ryu, to let their presence be known, today. Otake Sensei of the TSKSR is a prime example. Those who study in ryu headed by more conservative seniors must defer to the desires and concerns of those seniors, regardless of whether the juniors think those directives are valid. That's the way it is.

    Cady
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 8th January 2002 at 19:13.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Cady,

    I agree. If the teacher has requested that the students not discuss their school or art, whatever the merits, the students should respect their teacher's request.

    I also agree with you that some schools of DR seem to be far more close-mouthed. Again, I would not presume to argue with the decisions of a ryu's teacher.

    If that is the case, however, then such practitioners should not discuss their art at all on a public forum such as E-Budo. If not drawing attention to yourself is the goal, then the best way to do that is to ignore public inquiries, NOT hinting that you know something but, "sorry, just can't tell you, it's very hush hush," or responding in a sarcastic or hostile manner (and I am not pointing any fingers here. Just stating this as a matter of logical policy).

    Often times the very act of posting a response belies the putative goal of not drawing attention to yourself. As such, it can appear quite self-serving, even if undeservedly so.

    Sincerely,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  11. #56
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    BTW, I wanted also to mention that it is nice to have an agreeable discussion about a topic that many people obviously have different opinions about.

    It is a credit to E-Budo members, IMO, that this BB can be a vehicle for thoughtful debate, unlike many internet BBs.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  12. #57
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    Arman,

    Again, it comes down to individual personalities. Some people are so passionate about their interests and studies, that they want to engage in discussions. They're just limited as to how far they can go.

    For the most conservative systems, I'm sure that the seniors would prefer that everyone just shut up and shugyo. But, humans being what they are ... some people are so passionate about their studies, and intellectually outgoing, to boot, that they enjoy posting on forums. There is much that can be discussed that is mutually beneficial, without crossing any forbidden lines.

    Unfortunately, such individuals sometimes find themselves caught between the proverbial "rock and hard place." The Internet poses a modernday dilemma. Before people could "surf the 'net," there was no easy way to get into global conversations with people harboring similar interests. Not just that, but have that information be accessible to anyone. It's too easy for sociable, chatty types to get sucked in. Once the impact of the 'net kicks in, though, you learn to temper yourself and your responses.

    Some have gotten skewered by their sempai for postings that crossed the line. Some learn, some end up out on their butts.

    IMO, it's possible to enjoy lively discussions and arguements without giving away anything your school holds as confidential. It just takes practice to walk the fine line while not coming across looking like a taunting, arrogant snot. Easier said than done.

    Cady
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 9th January 2002 at 12:42.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Hello Mr. Partamian,

    I hear what your saying, and for most people this philosophy does not make sense. I've been involved rather deeply in the day to day operation of several budo federations, and as such have developed a different perspective. Most emails go through me, and when we have political issues, or questionable instructors approaching us, I'm usually involved in the discussions and response process.

    The main group I'm involved in is quite public. We have books, videos, magazine articles and web sites. People know who we are, so I see this side allot. Basically, there is a certain cross section of martial artists that study for financial gain and/or ego reasons. Some of these people wil be politely dissuaded, but some of them will manage to filter in. If they manage to gain some seniority in rank before their true colors show, it can be difficult to act upon politically. The more senior you are, the more the Federation/honbu tends to show tollerance, which ends up damaging the arts reputation in the end. Same goes for firing people of higher rank.

    However, personallities such as these are almost always not willing to work hard to find and gain admittance into the art, and even less willing to train seriously and long to earn their seniority the hard way.

    That is where being conservative is a benefit. Those involved in administration spend allot of our uncompensated personal time filtering through interested inquiries and requests, and every shady instructor in the world can find out about us and get our contact information in a matter of seconds. By being publicly open, we have some bozo's who teach themselves by video, and then claim to be instructors - teaching without formal instruction, rank or permission from us. We get others who like our choice in style name, and decide to bastardize is or simply steal it (and/or it's kanji) for themselves, causing more confusion to those new to the art. This should sound familiar to the Daito ryu world.

    But wait - there's more!

    We get bozo's stealing ANYTHING worthwhile they can find out about our system (which is often "omote", and means they do not understand what we're doing anyway) and mixing it into their own system. I can't think of one of these people that openly credits our founder for what they have "borrowed". Of course, the borrowed elements have always been in their system, right? This should also sound familiar. Oh yeah, we also get some people who visit and ask to take a picture with our founder. You can guess where this photo ends up, and what kind of story goes with it, right?

    Anyway, I could go on and on. It's not to say that being open publicly is ALL bad. Of course we attract good quality people as well, and expansion and interest in the art grows much quicker. But as a result, SOME of us spend a great deal of our own time doing damage control and educating interested parties as to whether an instructor is licensed under us and whether information "they heard" from their buddy or over the net is correct or not. If this is not done effectively, then the general public begins to equate the frauds and misinformation as true, and our reputation and integrity is sacrificed regardless of what we do at our honbu.

    O.K., some of this is going to happen with a conservative group too. But those trying to exploit conservative groups are going to have a pretty tough time since they do not know the operating system, terminology, instructors, or any other "inside" information. Those few people can be flushed out very quickly and proven as such by those in the art. Knowing the history is also an element of fraudulent schools, but the history by itself is not enough, and history is an academic subject, rather than a martial study.

    Furthermore, some instructors operate out of their own home, or use their residence as their contact information. They do not want to be called at home at 4am in the morning their time to be pressured by people they do not know, and who typically have poor etiquette. They don't want to spend their time and energy filtering and in many cases politely discouraging everyone and their dog who wants to contact them. They don't want to be "famous" from the publicity given to them by others, or their own interviews and statements they would have to make to constantly set the record straight from all the frauds and misinformation. All they want are sincere, LOYAL, serious students.

    These serious students are the kinds of people that ask (privately) around in the martial arts circles for contacts, educate themselves as much as possible about the art and their policies, and learn the proper etiquette necessary to correctly approach an instructor once they have found a line to one. This make take a few years, or it may take a few days, but, it takes as long as it takes. It used to be that prospective students were required to submit a letter of recommendation from someone the instructor knew or who was known to them. This is largely not necessary anymore, which makes approaching many conservative styles much easier these days.

    Kondo sensei has assumed the position as headmaster of the mainline right now, so does not really have the luxery of privacy - though of course making publications are by his choice. Other groups do not need to be in the limelight, so some of them choose to remain ellusive, if you will. So be it.

    In any event, discussing techniques and principles over the internet does not make any sense for any art - unless we are talking about Judo, Kendo or another such global and standardized art.

    If the public loses all interest in Daito ryu, and membership in the dojo drops enough, the instructors will be more comfortable opening up a bit. I think the conservativeness publicly is largely in response to the unwanted publicity.

    We have managed to spend several years uncovering various historical elements, and discussing their meaning. General discussions of aiki have been very interesting as well.

    But for those that are really curious about what people in Daito ryu are doing should just JOIN a dojo and train formally! This is really by far the best way to learn about it, not over the internet.

    Believe me, there is still lots to talk about here without exploiting any of the arts!
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 11th January 2002 at 21:43.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Mr. Scott,

    You raise some good points on the dangers of too much publicity. While I tend to think such concerns are a little overblown, and handled without too much difficulty, I am not in fundamental disagreement with your position.

    Kondo Sensei also walks a fine line that his students are very aware of. How to disseminate the art to a small group of dedicated students without sacrificing the integrity of the art. The study group I am a part of works as a nice filtering sieve. As point in fact, I was a member of the study group for over two years before I travelled to Japan to study with Kondo Sensei at the Shimbukan. As for general publicity, the main thing Kondo Sensei is concerned about is misinformation, especially given the recent political events that regulars to this forum I'm sure are all aware of.

    In the end, perhaps we are just "center-right" and "center-left" of the martial line of openness, if you get my drift.

    Cady,
    You said,
    "IMO, it's possible to enjoy lively discussions and arguements without giving away anything your school holds as confidential. It just takes practice to walk the fine line while not coming across looking like a taunting, arrogant snot. Easier said than done."

    Right on, brother.

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

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    Talking That's 'Sister'!

    Arman writes
    "Right on, brother!"

    I'm a girl, pal.

    Cady
    Cady Goldfield

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