Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24

Thread: Book: "Shinto - At the Fountain-head of Japan"

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,565
    Likes (received)
    46

    Default Book: "Shinto - At the Fountain-head of Japan"

    Hello,

    I just obtained a copy of "Shinto - At the Fountain-head of Japan", by Jean Herbert; London 1967. It is a good sized hard backed volume covering Shintoism in English, though OOP and apparently hard to find.

    I thought to look for it based off a reference to it in one of the Aikido books by John Stevens, in which he sites this book and says that it is an invaluable resource on Shinto in the English language.

    It just came today, so I haven't really had a chance to read through it much yet, but it does seem very comprehensive and well written.

    I guess I was wondering if anyone else has read this and cared to offer any comments?

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    North Lake Tahoe, Ca.
    Posts
    4
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Mr. Scott,
    You should try and find a copy of "Kami no Michi
    The Way of the Kami" by Yukitaka Yamamoto (Tsubaki
    America Press).
    This is one of the best books around on Shinto.

    Jason House

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,565
    Likes (received)
    46

    Default

    Mr. House,

    Thanks for the tip. I'll look into it.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Location
    metropolitan new york
    Posts
    289
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default Jean Herbert's Book

    Nathan:

    Comments? Errr...

    1. Congratulations!

    2. How much did it cost?

    3. Where did you find it?

    If I were to step into scholarly mode, I would say that while research in a number of areas has moved beyond what is in this volume, it is still the best all-around reference (both breadth and depth) available in the English language.

    There are other works that treat particular aspects of Shinto, or forms or Shinto more exhaustively and/or convey the feeling of Shinto practice, but if you're doing any serious study of the subject, this is a great place to start.

    Practice is a different matter, but study is always good preparation for the moment when you find a teacher, if you're looking for one.

    Best regards,


    Fred Little

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas--for now
    Posts
    133
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Herbert's book

    You have my envy, Nathan! Herbert's book is probably one of the most comprehensive treatments of the subject available in English. I first found it in a college library back in 1995. I had two more opportunities to study it while doing uchi deshi trainings with Hendricks Sensei at Aikido of San Leandro. Since then, I have hunted on and off for a reasonably-priced copy (that is, under $100).

    Of course, the major dilemma with it is that its author is not Japanese--therefore, the emphasis, or lack thereof, pertaining to some of the subject areas may be skewed. On the other hand, the very fact that Herbert was a Westerner may make this a more understandable resource for us fellow Westerners. Another excellent book in a similar vein is John K. Nelson's "A Year in the Life of a Shinto Shrine" (1996, ISBN 0-295-97500-8, paperback)

    A third source I enjoy using for Japanese cultural perspective is "We Japanese," by the Fujiya Hotel, LTD., Miyonoshita, Hakone. It is a fascinating book that was originally published between 1934 and 1950 in three volumes, intended for the use of hotel guests. The edition I have is dated 1950, string-bound on thin parchment paper. It is stuffed full of customs, folk beliefs, mythology, ceremonies and other aspects that the Japanese writers felt were interesting and important for Westerners to know. Of course, that very emphasis ALSO skews the results...

    Obviously, studying the foundation books of Shinto--that is, the Nihonji and the Kojiki--in their original language would be most appropriate for anyone undertaking a serious project in researching the history of Shinto. I have two different English translations of the Kojiki--Basil Chamberlain's and Donald Philippi's--which I prefer--and it is enlightening to see how different these two authors have interpreted the same material.

    Sigh. Unless we can magically duplicate the background of a Japanese upbringing, replete with fluency and literacy in the language, we will always be at a disadvantage in trying to gain a full understanding of the culture. It would be an interesting exercise to look at some books written by Japanese authors, for a Japanese public, on such topics as life and religion in the United States. We would probably laugh and shake our heads at some of the inaccuracies or viewpoints. However, that is what I find so wonderful about studying other cultures, and why the subject is endlessly fascinating.
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,565
    Likes (received)
    46

    Default

    I found the Herbert book through a rare book search on the net (there are a handful of good OOP search services).

    There was a shop in England that ended up having a used first edition copy in excellent condition, and it only cost $60.00, not including a few buck for shipping!

    The book is 622 pages and does have a few illustrations, as well as quite a bit of specific Shinto terminology.

    I've been reading through the Philippi version of the Kojiki as well, which is pretty good. Don't have the Nihonji or Nihon Shoki yet.

    Shinto is an area of interest to me; especially the original misogi practices, as I feel they would compliment my practice of bi-annual shugyo. I'm also researching early references to "in/yo ho" for an essay I'm working on, which appears to have first been discussed in the Kojiki.

    Good stuff.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Hiroshima, Japan.
    Posts
    2,550
    Likes (received)
    151

    Default

    Hello Nathan,

    Happy New Year!

    I have Herbert's book in French (the English version is a translation), but I agree with Fred Little's comments. In particular, two scholars (Toshio Kuroda and Anna Seidel) have written some interesting stuff on early Shinto and its links with Taoism, thus Herbert is somewhat dated.

    As for the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki in Japanese, good luck. I use both for a class I teach here on nationhood and creation myths. The editions I use are part of a series called Nihon Koten Bungaku Zenshu, published by Kogakkan. There is the "original text", with a modern translation, but my students sometimes have trouble with the modern translation: they cannot read some of the characters. Of course, they cannot read the original text (which I suppose would correspond to something like "Beowulf" or "Gawain and the Green Knight" in English).

    Mention has been made that Herbert was not Japanese, but I think this works both ways. On the one hand, a non native does not have the linguistic intuitions and cultural baggage of the native; on the other hand, this cultural baggage can sometimes be an impediment. For example, the catalogue of the recent Shinto exhibition at the British Museum in London presents a certain 'official view' of Shinto, namely, the view of Japan's Cultural Affairs Agency and Imperial Household Agency. The catalogue was edited by Victor Harris (in itself an indication that the native/non-native distinction cuts both ways) and received a very critical review in the Herald Tribune. I can see why.

    Nevertheless, Herbert's book is a good book. Other more recent discussions in English are the relevant chapters in the new six-volume "Cambridge History of Japan".

    Best regards,

    Peter Goldsbury
    ____________
    P A Goldsbury,
    Graduate School of Social Sciences,
    Hiroshima University

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,565
    Likes (received)
    46

    Default

    Hello Mr. Goldsbury,

    Happy New Year to you too!

    Thanks for adding to the insight. I'll read through what I have so far, and keep my eyes open for the other works referenced above.

    There does not seem to be any shinto presense here in Southern California, aside from a group called the "Shumeikai", which I understand to be a hybrid or sorts. I'll have to stick to the books for the time being I suppose.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Palo Alto, Ca, USA
    Posts
    1,324
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Nathan:

    In Washington state there is a branch shrine of the Tsubaki Grand Shrine in Japan. The head priest is an American who, I have been told, seems to know his stuff. Perhaps he could direct you to some good literature on the subject.

    Check them out at:

    http://www.tsubakishrine.com/home.asp

    Regarding Westerners and their ability, or lack thereof, to understand Japanese culture, Shinto in particular, I had a very funny Shinto encounter in Japan, as follows:

    I was returning from kyudo practice one evening (summer, I think), when from down the street I heard what sounded like gagaku music. I looked down the street and saw light from two lanterns illuminating some sort of temporary enclosure set up at the front of a house. Two older men in yukata motioned me to come over, and when I did I saw that a carport had been converted into a shrine with a large kamidana piled high with offerings, before which rested an omikoshi. I inquired what was going on and was told that the local shrine was having its annual festival for the deity which protected the locality, which/who was enshrined at the local jinja. After presenting offerings and drinking sacred sake (omiki), the inhabitants of the locality protected by the deity would carry the omikoshi around the borders of the neighborhood to invoke the protection of the deity for the coming year, after which they would repair to the shrine and offer prayers and sacred dances to the deity.

    Hot damn, I thought, I am finally getting a clear, if rudimentary, explanation of basic Shinto practices, much better than the blank stares, shrugs, or embarassed giggles I usually got when I asked Hiroshi Sixpak what Shinto was all about. So, I said, this is Japanese religion (shukyo), right? The two guys looked puzzled and then started shaking their heads vigorously, saying no, no, this isn't religion at all.

    I'm sure there is a haiku or something in there, but I haven't figured it out yet. I can only conclude that the word "shukyo" is understood by Japanese to refer to western-style religion and that they look at Shinto in a very different way than is suggested by the word "shukyo".

    Still, silly Westerner that I am, when I see shrines, altars, robed priests, offerings, various ceremonies and cryptic prayers, I assume something religious is going on. It is very interesting that the Japanese do not see it as such, if that is indeed actually the case.
    Earl Hartman

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    San Antonio, Texas--for now
    Posts
    133
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Grand Tsubaki Shrine of America--in California

    There is an additional, affiliated shrine to Kannagara Jinja in Washington state--that is, the branch of the Grand Tsubaki Shrine in the city of Stockton, California.

    I have visited this beautiful shrine, which is in the backyard of a standard suburban house in a typical neighborhood. At the time of my visit, there were two priests in attendence--Revs. Yukihiko and Ochiai. They performed the various seasonal ceremonies at the shrine, as well as rituals (such as weddings and house blessings) in other areas, including out of state.

    I found the two of them to be very welcoming and informative. One was soon to return to Japan--he had been here seven years helping to get the shrine established.

    The shrine's address is: 1545 West Alpine Avenue, Stockton, CA 95204. Their phone number in 1997 was 209-466-5323. They were publishing a newsletter called Tsubaki News--I do not know if it is still available.

    It is most courteous to call and ask permission to visit. And please remember that this is a special place--do not just go snapping away photos without asking first.

    There is also a Shinto center in NYC, across the street from the UN. I have not been there, so I cannot speak for who they are and what they are doing. I just saw a mention of them on the Internet.
    In Sangha,
    Dr. Diane Mirro

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,565
    Likes (received)
    46

    Default

    Thanks for the Shrine contact info. I've visited a handful of Shrines and Temples in Japan (including Ise and Meiji Jingu), so am not totally foreign to the etiquette.

    It's also good to know that the priests are willing to travel in order to hold ceremonies. This could be the way to go until we have local representation in Southern California.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  12. #12
    kissaki Guest

    Default re: Tsubaki shrine/Stockton

    Hello All,
    I'm very glad to see people interested in Shinto, but I must say that Tsubaki America is only in Granite Falls,WA at this time. The Stockton location has been closed.
    There is a new guest house (kaikan)at the Granite Falls location, and all visitors interested in shinto are welcome.

    For further information you should contact.
    Koichi Barrish, Head priest of Tsubaki Gand Shrine/ America

    kannagara@prodigy.net
    or access the website at:
    www.kannagara.org

    Christian Pointer

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    29
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Could Mr. Scott or Matsuba please send me the ISBN for the books they refer to? Thanks guys.

    Dave Gordon
    Dave Gordon
    askaninja.com

    It does not matter how slowly you go so long as you do not stop.-Confucius

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Los Angeles, CA USA
    Posts
    2,565
    Likes (received)
    46

    Default

    "SHINTO - At the Fountain-head of Japan"
    by Jean Herbert. London; George Allen & Unwin Ltd. 1967.

    I couldn't find an ISBN number anywhere in it, but since it has been long out of print, it wouldn't help you anyway. The above information should be adequate to search for a copy or find it in a library.

    I believe that "Kami no Michi" is available and sold through the American Shinto shrine referenced above. Try following the links provided.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Posts
    82
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Nathan:

    Read Herbert with extreme caution. He lacked any historical or scholarly skepticism and merely repeated everything he was told. Much of what he recounts cannot be found in any other source, which is valuable in some ways, but almost everything he writes is problematic or wrong in certain ways too.

    An excellent source for accurate information about Japanese religions is the *Japanese Journal of Religious Studies.* It is published by Nazan University in Nagoya and can be downloaded via the Internet for free from their website: http://www.ic.nanzan-u.ac.jp/SHUBUNKEN/

    For recent reliable scholarship on Shinto, see:

    Shinto in history: ways of the kami. Edited by John Breen and Mark Teeuwen. Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press, 2000.

    Grapard, Allan G. The protocol of the gods: a study of the Kasuga cult in Japanese history. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1992.

    The last chapter of Grapard's book is especially useful for understanding how Shinto was transformed from a very sophisticated component of Japanese Buddhism into a a hollow shell that could be manipulated for political purposes.

    For an account of some of the difficulties that arise when studying Shinto, see my review article:

    Bodiford, William. Review of Mark Teeuwen, Watarai Shinto: An Intellectual History of the Outer Shrine in Ise. Journal of Japanese Studies vol. 24, no 2 (Summer, 1998): 361-378.

    Good luck,
    William Bodiford
    Professor
    Dept. of Asian Languages & Cultures
    UCLA

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. From the Book Review Thread - Kanshibari, Hagkure, Book Publishing -
    By Ellis Amdur in forum Old School by Ellis Amdur
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 23rd November 2002, 16:58
  2. Book FAQ
    By John Lindsey in forum Passing the Guard
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 8th October 2002, 05:23
  3. Book: "Effortless Combat Throws", by Tim Cartmell
    By Nathan Scott in forum Aikijujutsu
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 13th July 2002, 19:35
  4. New video and book!
    By Anders Pettersson in forum Shorinji Kempo
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 15th September 2000, 19:46

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •