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Thread: Origin of Iai arts

  1. #31
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    Mr. Smith,

    I do agree on the need to visualize a target when practicing solo forms. Don't know if this is what the various iaido-ka and book authors had in mind though, as I have not read this idea written anywhere.

    Mr. Flinn,

    The thing that allot of people don't get about Ogasawara ryu etiquette, is that it was created by someone of the "samurai" class, and was chosen as the preferred method of etiquette because a great deal of it was based on combative awareness. This meant you got to live longer. Wearing your sword is a condition of readiness, and was not permitted because it was a tactical liability. Allot of the etiquette is like this, and to not follow such manner would be to invite assasination.

    If you are friendly with someone, you place the sword on your right so that there is no misunderstanding about your intentions. As far as messengers, or someone you don't trust, there were methods in place to minimize the liability of meeting under such circumstances.

    Messengers were one of the types of people that had accepted cause to place the sword on their left side (not in the belt) when visiting someone from the enemies camp. They were typically well guarded, and allowed to demonstrate combative awareness since it was an unavoidable hostile enviornment on both sides.

    It is not unheard of to carry your sword inside, but it is unheard of to wear it inside. This is one of the few things that is pretty clear cut. Kind of like taking your shoes off before walking on tatami.

    For a tired, worn out subject, it sure does come up allot, and there are still apparently quite a few people that are not up on the "bunkai".

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #32
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    Another quick point on guarding assassination attempts. In several older historical buildings I have been it in Japan there were often small rooms, more like closets, attached to the main "meeting" rooms of the owners of the buildings in which armed guards waited incase something should happen, in which they would throw open the door and be right there at the lord or whomever's side. in theory someone could be waiting in there with a katana, although the size of these rooms would lead me to suspect it wouldn't be in their obi. All the places in which I have scene this of "guard closet" have been the homes, retreats, etc of major people, not something your average warrior type would have. Another thing I have heard, and for the life of me I can't recall the source right now, is that seiza itself was useful for protecting the lord/whoever of the home, as eventually your legs will fall asleep which will most likely cause problems when you want to suddenly jump up and cut someone. Thus people were made to sit and wait in seiza a bit for the top guy to show up and meet them. Of course I highly doubt this is the sole, or even a main, reason the use of seiza spread (a much more likely reason was the popularization of the tea ceremony, although I haven't really looked into this like I should have, so don't go quoting me on any of this), but rather was simply a useful side effect of the use of seiza.

    Rennis Buchner

  3. #33
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    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    More times than not, these books offer combative explanations for these seiza forms, with the opponent standing about 3 feet away in jodan kamae: "as your opponent comes forward to cut you down, draw your sword and cut him first" (paraphrased). It does not take much experimentation to find out that the techniques as shown and described are typically not practical. How common is it for 4 enemies to attack you from 90 degree angles, evenly spaced out, at the same time? Good for learning, but such methods should be understood as body movement theory, and not "it is like this when the opponents attack".
    Hmm. In my so far brief iaido career, I havn't come across an "explanation" for any of the seiza kata (or any of the others for that matter) that start with the opponents already drawn and close to you. So far, they've all started with the opponents with swords still sheathed. If you've come across such explanations, I'd agree that the waza are impractical. If the opponents got that much of the drop on you, one, you're pretty much screwed already, and, two, jujutsu rather than battojutsu seems more likely to save your life.

    As for the 90 degree spacing, etc., not being "real life," I completely agree. I also don't think you'll find any iaidoka who think a real fight would be all on those nice lines. The point of having 90 degree or 180 degree turns isn't to learn how to turn 90 or 180 degrees, it's to learn how to turn.

    To me, this is like when some people criticize iaido for teaching chiburi, because it doesn't really work. We know that it doesn't work, but we also know you need to clean your sword.

    - Kent Enfield
    Kent Enfield
    Kentokuseisei

  4. #34
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    Dan:

    My point about combative effectiveness is mainly that even if someone is practicing the solo forms with full combative intent, it is, I think we can all agree, impossible for solo forms, of whatever kind and of whatever art, BY THEMSELVES, to adequately train a person for what might happen in a real fight. Thus, even if a peson truly believes that he is training with full combative intent, there is no feedback to tell him wheter what he does will "work" or not. Paired practice, of some kind, is really necessary

    That is precisely why, in his book, my teacher empahsized the need for the practice of the paired kata to not be neglected. That they have been neglected is just too damned bad.

    Nathan:

    My teacher always said that you had to "have an enemy in your heart", that is, you had to visulaize an enemy, when you did iai. Maybe you have never heard anyone say that, but he always said this.

    It is my understanding that placing the sword on the right, with the ege turned towards oneself, was the proper way to show peaceful intentions. As a matter of fact, I have seen iai foms of the Suio Ryu where the attacker places his sword in just that position, to fool the enemy into thinking his intentions are peaceful, only to initiate an attack and kill the other fellow. It is interesting that 1) he falsely signalled his "peaceful" intent, 2) intiated the attack, and 3) won the fight. Sneaky by "modern" standards where the one who intitates the attack always loses, but it smacks of the real world to me.
    Earl Hartman

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    Default A Few Questions

    G'day All,

    Can anyone tell me:

    1) Was Oe Masamichi an Edo or Meiji era sensei?
    2) Was the use/popularity of a katana in Omori-ryu (shodan-waza) training possibly a result of the banning of the wearing of the daisho by the Meiji Emporer?
    3) Does anyone have any thoughts on seiza-waza in jujutsu, even the older koryu had them.
    4) If suwari-waza are not designed for combat, why did the other koryu besides MJER/MSR develop such techniques (especially in the Edo period)?

    I can only think of one place where one would wear a katana in the obi and in indoors and have to defend himself from seiza, the dojo!

    Regards,

    Paul Steadman

  6. #36
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Earl

    You’re preaching to the choir here Bud. You and I have gotten into some deep discussions regarding weapon design and use in various cultures. On any other Day I would be saying the same things. I think you know I am of the pragmatic “take it to the nth degree” persuasion.
    If MJER is as you have stated "mostly a Solo Kata exercise these days" or whether it is as Brian states "The paired forms are practiced by many if not most schools" (seems like I'll never know which is which) It would be a shame if most aren't taking advantage of the full curriculum.

    As for the visualization tool-while it is worthwhile and a very good training tool for memorization -there are things to consider about the big picture. Sword isn't golf- you can picture the ball moving toward a fixed goal but there is only the wind to interfere. You can practice test cutting for focus but the target doesn't move. The study of weapons needs to be exhaustive or it is really no study of weapons at all. There was a discussion in a similar vein on another BBS about guns. One fellow said it was unfair to say an expert marksman in handguns isn’t practicing gun combatives. I argued they aren’t. They are practicing marksmanship-a single aspect of a larger picture. Targets don’t shoot back. And it would be better to have to perform target acquisition while you were moving, dodging, walking through varying light conditions and lining up targets through skeletal positioning. If you want to practice marksmanship -go for it-But don't kid yourself into thinking your practicing something else.
    So it is with sword. Test cutting is only that, knee walking and visualizing is only that. Do them to your hearts content, but that type of study of weapons is rather limited compared to those who explore it more fully.
    They say Iai is supposed to be the highest form of swordsmanship I agree it should, but it simply can't be for those who have not gone through the crucible of complete training. For those who have spent the majority of their training time up and down from their knees visualizing an enemy in solo Kata with only a small portion devoted to the rest- Iai will be the lowest form of swordsmanship. A starter course as it were.
    A handgun quick draw artist is not a person I would learn gun combatives from. A swordsman who has spent the “majority” of his training time visualizing an enemy is not someone I would want to learn weapons from.
    Nice, but hardly what one would consider a weapons study-just an interesting piece of a much broader and deeper study.

    I say do it all and keep it in balance.
    Cuts
    Kata
    Shiai
    Iai

    Cuts- learning to cut is basic; it has its own fixed Maai and develops skeletal aligning, grip, and a rudimentary targeting skill. You can continue to develop power-most of which would have been unnecessary in combat. But since the target is fixed and doesn’t fight back you need....

    Kata- Targeting a moving opponent who is cutting back at you, and learning to be positive while moving backward, learning not to be sucked into his suigetsu, to cut in improbable positions, becoming a slave to footwork and your schools methods and then ultimately freedom of movement and flexible mindset in a stressful but choreographed environment leads to....

    Shiai- Donning armor and testing what you have learned against unknown and unwilling opponents, learning true intent as opposed to feints, to not overreact nor to lead and telegraph with a weapon, learning to read postures and to wire frame an adversary leads to...

    Iai- The ability to not react until it is necessary, and then to do so with the speed you learned over the years, the movements you have inculcated to avoid and yet acquire a target, the cutting power you have so diligently developed, the accuracy to meet your target with a calm mind and resolve

    As you can see I agree with most of your opinions. Personally I find it to be more of an all or nothing approach, I don't imagine I'll be getting into a sword fight anyday soon, But I want to get as close as is practical by engaging in a more comprehensive venue for using the weapon in its fullest capacity. Doing it all leaves fewer openings in the man-figuratively and literally.
    To IMAGINE you are acquiring the skill to read intent, draw and strike while moving, or to be able to forestall an attack and be able to stand and then maintain target acquisition against a moving committed opponent who has spent years fighting is only that-imagination.
    In order to engage someone in any substantive way- it takes years of one-to-one training in a stressfull environment. Any attempt to "simulate" the rewards of that type of training in solo training is bound to fail.
    But we have to allow for those who are content with that if it’s all they want out of sword. But for others- picking up a weapon and ultimately facing an unwilling partner is a decisive act, and a more detailed study.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 28th January 2002 at 00:11.

  7. #37
    Ben Bartlett Guest

    Default Omori Ryu

    I was at an MJER seminar yesterday, where Carl Long-sensei was kind enough to correct me on the creation and addition of the Omori Ryu waza to MJER, so I thought I'd share it on here (since I posted an incorrect version earlier).

    Omori-sensei was the senior student of Eishin-sensei. Everyone thought that he was going to be the next Grandmaster of Eishin Ryu, but he and Eishin-sensei didn't see eye to eye on quite a few things, and so went their seperate ways. Omori-sensei was heavily influenced by court etiquette and by the ideas of Sen-no-Rikyu. He decided that he was going to invent a way to teach samurai court etiquette. So, he took what are now the shoden waza from Eishin Ryu (which at the time were performed standing), and changed them to be performed from seiza. The next Grandmaster of Eishin Ryu, having studied under both Eishin-sensei and Omori-sensei, saw the value of what Omori-sensei had done, and reincorperated the Omori Ryu waza into MJER. So, that's why there are waza performed from seiza. It should also be noted that all of these waza have standing versions.

    This is actually a wonderful example of another problem with trying to examine MJER: different students of MJER possess different amounts of knowledge about MJER. I can tell you what I know about our branch of MJER, but there is quite a bit I don't know. Long-sensei obviously knows quite a bit more, but I'm sure there's stuff he still has to learn as well. Miura-sensei of course knows everything about the branch, but he's none too likely to be found posting on this board. As with many arts, the only way to actually know everything about our branch is to train in it for a very, very, very long time. And while I'm planning on doing just that, I somehow doubt that interests everyone posting in this thread (although I'm sure it interests some of you, in terms of your own respective branches, of course).

    I had noticed a few posts about bunkai, so I will throw in a couple of words about that while I am at it. First, as Long-sensei said yesterday, there are several kinds of bunkai. There are, for instance, "form bunkai" and "real bunkai" (I'm trying to quote him, but I may be getting the terms a bit off. You'll have to forgive me). In other words, the bunkai you normally use for a waza do not necessarily reflect the way real combat would probably happen, however, there are ways to adjust the waza to deal with real situations (or at least that's my interpretation of what he was saying). Next, someone on here said something along the lines of, "There are no bunkai where your opponent starts with his sword drawn and close to you." Well, in all of the chuden waza, your opponent starts close to you, and in some of those waza, he has his sword drawn, so such waza do exist. Yes, I learned that yesterday, too. Boy those seminars are useful.

    As a final note, I'd just like to thank everyone for making this a good thread. I've seen threads like these descend into iai-bashing, but this one has not done so. While I may not agree with all of you on the relative realism (I'm still trying to come up with a good term for what we are discussing here) of MJER, there have been many intelligent and thought-provoking posts. I, personally, have learned quite a bit, both from your posts and from Long-sensei kindly filling in gaps in my knowledge. Hopefully I've gotten at least a couple of you to consider the idea that perhaps MJER is slightly more realistic (again, I really need a good term) than you had previously thought. Or at least let you know that we don't all think that samurai sat around in seiza while wearing katana.

  8. #38
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    Dan,
    Please keep in mind that I said that TACHIUCHI NO KURAI are taught in many or most BRANCHES(not necessarily most dojos) of MJER and at least a couple of branches of MSR. Tachiuchi no kurai is only the first set (of 10 or 7 kata, depending on your line) out of 5 or 6 sets of paired kata. The next set, Tsumeiai no kurai, are taught in at least a couple branches. The later sets, while extremely rare, are most likely not completely lost. I'm sure that there are some old timers somewhere in Shikoku that know them. Also, since Danzaki Tomoaki preserved most or all of them within his line of MSR, I think it is likely that there are still some of his students still doing them.
    So, it is not a matter of it being as 'I said or what Earl said', it is both. Iai is still a mostly solo kata art, even if the Tachiuchi no kurai are taught in most branches. As Ben said, 10 or 7 paired kata to 42 or 43 solo kata is still mostly solo kata.

    Brian

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    Hi all,

    Rennis - the guards in the closet could very well have been armed with te-yari or perhaps makura yari (short spears). There is no benefit to having the saya on your hip if you know you are going to draw it in advance - especially in close quarters. It would make more sense to be holding the sheathed sword in the hand, as opposed to in the belt.

    FWIW, I have been taught numerous techniques from seiza in which the daito is employed from its position on either side of the body (not in the obi). Also, short sword methods, and numerous ways of restraining/attacking someone who is sitting in seiza or wearing the daito in their belt (from any position). All these methods make sense, and are "historically likely" situations. That is why I am interested in why a method that has no historical application was introduced, and combative scenarios created from positions/situations that are not relevant.

    Earl-san, I believe that visualizing an opponent is critical regardless of whether a form is designed to be combative or not. It is the (sometimes) unrealistic conflict scenarios that I read and hear repeated that are objectionable. If visualizing a target/opponent was qualified as such, it would be one thing. But I've yet to see such disclaimers or references.

    Mr. Bartlett - didn't Oe create the Omori ryu?

    The common story seems to include that Oe was a student of Ogasawara ryu and that, possibly because of this experience, he decided to perform iai from seiza. Ogasawara ryu did not include this type of manner (wearing daito indoors or while in seiza) in its curriculum though, and such methodology, while physically beneficial, would not prove practical since the opportunity to test it would not arise. Again, you would think such an important and unique practice ould have been explained in the densho, being one of the core principles of the style. But it would seem that somehow the original reason has been lost.

    If seiza methods are a training method only, then there really isn't any "bunkai". My instructor has always encouraged us to visualize a target, but has not tried to create scenarios for methods that were not intended to replicate a combative series of movements.

    I think I haven't changed the subject of focus in my posts, and have more than anything been restating and repeating the same questions!

    Thanks for the contributions though. It is nice to discuss the subject without fighting about it.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 28th January 2002 at 02:41.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  10. #40
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Thanks Brian

    That makes it clearer. Is there anyway to get the branches organized enough to preserve them though? You know how quickly something like that could die out. There seems to be plenty enough seniors with relationships to get something going. I can't imagine the likes Of Mitsuzuka sensei being willing to let it pass. How about an organization like Kim Taylor’s to bring various Sensei in and start the process? I know you are "doing other things" I heard about your growing family as well as the Kobudo stuff-how about vesting some time in getting the paired Kata organized?
    Although I have no vested interest in the art, as a bystander I would mourn the loss of yet another art, or even parts of one.

    I would echo Nathan's comments that I have been taught Kata from seiza but always with a kodachi or with the idea that the Daito was on the floor. The former were for both formal restraint and seizure as well as defense and the later were more civilain type openly defensive.

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 28th January 2002 at 03:19.

  11. #41
    Ben Bartlett Guest

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    Mr. Bartlett - didn't Oe create the Omori ryu?
    No, Omori-sensei did. Thus the name, "Omori Ryu". As for the reason why he did this, as I explained above, it was to teach the samurai courtly etiquette. In fact, you will find that the history of the Omori Ryu waza is in the second paragraph of my previous post. That's really all there is to say on that subject.

  12. #42
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    Default Omori Ryu Confusion

    Gentlemen,

    Perhaps this will help to clear any of the confusion regarding Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaijutsu and the Omori Ryu. There is much information available to those who wish do do a little research rather than speculate and provide false or misleading information. False information leads to misunderstanding and false confidence in those who profess to be experts in their fields of study.


    SHIN MUSO HAYASHIZAKI RYU

    Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu (c. 1546-1621), is popularly credited as being the originator and greatest expositor of the art of drawing the sword, also known as Iai-jutsu. More than two hundred ryu have been founded in the afterglow of this amazing swordsman.

    Jinsuke formally named his sword-drawing art Shimmei Muso Ryu, but his ardent followers renamed it Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu. It is considered the foundation for the two major styles of Iaido practiced today: Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and Muso Shinden Ryu.

    In each generation of the Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu swordsmen, a headmaster (soke), has been appointed to guide the practice of the art, and each soke has had his own influence on the development of the style.

    Here is the lineage up to the 11th headmaster of our style of iaijutsu:


    Founder Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu
    2nd Headmaster Tamiya Heibei Narimasa
    3rd Headmaster Nagano Muraku Nyudo Kinrosai
    4th Headmaster Momo Gumbei Mitsushige
    5th Headmaster Arikawa Shozaemon Munetsugu
    6th Headmaster Banno Dan'emon no Jo Nobusada
    7th Headmaster Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin (Hidenobu)
    8th Headmaster Arai Seitetsu Kiyonobu
    9th Headmaster Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa (incorporated the Omori Ryu seiza no Bu into Eishin-Ryu
    10th Headmaster Hayashi Yasudayu Seisho
    11th Headmaster Oguro Motoemon Kiyokatsu


    Some soke of the school would not only teach and perpetuate the original style but would also leave behind a parallel style (ryu) with what they considered new improvements on the old style:

    - Tamiya Heibei Narimasa (2nd) would create the Tamiya ryu.
    - Nagano Muraku Kinrosai (3rd), the Muraku ryu ...


    Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin (Hidenobu) , the 7th soke of the Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu, named his own ryu the Eishin Ryu. We attribute to him the position of iai tate-hiza and the wearing of the katana with the cutting edge uppermost, thrust through the sash.

    His influence on the Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu curriculum was such that the following headmaster, Arai Seitetsu Kiyonobu (8th), united the Eishin Ryu to the central line of the Shin Muso Hayashizaki Ryu and it was now referred to has the Jinsuke-Eishin Ryu line of teaching.

    The 9th soke, Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa, after studies under Omori Rokurozaemon Masamitsu (Hayashi Rokudayu's Sempai) of the Omori ryu style, introduced in the curriculum some techniques from the seiza position and for the first time, a ceremonial or etiquette (reishiki).

    Omori Rokurozaemon Masamitsu (from the Shinkage school of swordsmanship) had been a direct disciple of Eishin but was expelled by the later for personal reasons. He thus developed his own very distinctive style of sword-drawing art, the Omori ryu.

    Before Masamitsu's development of the Omori Ryu, the swordsmen of the Jinsuke-Eishin line used the tate-hiza and tachi-ai postures from which to bring the sword into action. Masamitsu disagreed with the use of these postures in effecting the draw of the sword. He based his starting posture on seiza as he learned it in his study of Ogasawara Ryu reishiki (etiquette).

    The techniques of his art became "those he had learned from Eishin" but as conditioned by the saya-no-uchi batto gohon, the five forms of sword-drawing technique, of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (Bishu). Masamitsu devised eleven techniques that formed the basis of the Omori Ryu sword-drawing art. This new development brought him back into the good graces of Eishin.

    The sword techniques of the Omori Ryu were incorporated in the curriculum of the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu by Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa (9th generation soke).

    MUSO JIKIDEN EISHIN RYU

    Oe Masamichi Shikei (1852-1927), the seventeenth headmaster of the Tanimura-ha, suggested during the Taisho era (1912-1926) that the Jinsuke-Eishin line of teachings be uniformly taught under the formal title of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and that its techniques include those of the Omori Ryu as a formal part of the codified curriculum.

    To the eleven Omori Ryu techniques, Nakayama Hakudo, one of Oe's student, added a twelfth, and Oe Sensei renamed them and codified them as the shoden, a first level of study in the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu art of iai-jutsu. Most of the shoden techniques begin from seiza posture.

    Shikei, Hakudo, and other swordsmen codified ten techniques of the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu as chuden, a middle level of study. All of these techniques begin from tate-hiza posture except the last, which begins from seiza. A third level called okuden, the hidden or "secret" teachings, was standardized (eight techniques in tate-hiza and thirteen in tachi-waza).

    I hope that some of this information will assist you in your further understanding of the Omori Ryu and it's relationship to Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu and several of the Ryu_Ha associated with the lineage of Hayashizaki Jinsuke Shigenobu.

    Thank you for reading this very long post.

    Sincere regards,

    Carl Long
    Jikishin-Kai Intl.

  13. #43
    Ben Bartlett Guest

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    Wow, that blew my explanation out of the water. Thanks for taking the time to post that, Long-sensei! Now I just have to memorize all of that before Brown-sensei finds this thread and decides to give his students a quiz.

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    Dear Mr. Long:

    Excellent and informative post. However, I have a question. I don't have my books in front of me, but I was under the impression that Oe S. originally refused to teach Nakayama S. because he was an outsider (not from Tosa), and that Nakayama S. learned, and then inherited, the Shimomura-ha from someone else (the name escapes me at the moment), which he eventually popularized as the Muso Shinden Ryu. However, your post indicates that Oe. S and Nakayama S. cooperated on arranging the original techniques into what we now know as MJER and that Nakayama S. was Oe S's. student.

    This is of more than academic interest to me since when I lived in Japan I learned MJER from Masaoka Katsukane (Kazumi) S., who was a direct student of Oe S. and who received the Kongen no Maki from him. Masaoka S. also had a close and long-term relationship with Nakayama S., who was from Ishikawa Prefecture, where Masaoka S. worked as a teacher (and where I met him when I lived there). Based on what I have read, it appears that Masaoka S's. relationship with the line of the school headed by Hogiyama Namio S. was somewhat strained, and although I have not read anything definitive on the subject, I was under the impression that this may have been due partially to Masaoka S's. relationship with Nakayama S., whose views influenced Masaoka S's. iai in some way. I would appreciate it if you could direct me to any literature, in Japanese or in English, that would shed more light on the relationship of Oe. S. and Nakayama S.

    Thank you for your time.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 28th January 2002 at 20:13.
    Earl Hartman

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    Carl, I agree with Earl here. Great post! But I have to also agree with Earl on Nakayama Hakudo and Oe Masamichi's relationship. It is well documented that Oe Masamichi refused to teach Nakayama Hakudo, and consequently Nakayama studied under another teacher of Tosa Iai.
    I must add however that contrary to popular belief, my studies have lead me to believe that Nakayama and Oe were not at odds with each other, but in fact regarded each other rather highly.

    I would greatly like to know what reference source you used in your own research. As those of us who study MJER know, the reference materials for our art is relatively limited as far as public access is concerned. A fact which is evidenced frequently (as you noted) in many peoples misconceptions of hearsay for fact on most threads such as this one.

    Regards,
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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