Highest Teachings

[meat]

Hey guys, I want to ask a question both as a budoka and a soldier. I know that the highest levels of koryu contain esoteric teachings, preparing a warrior mentally and spiritually for conflict in a way that civilian martial arts don't.
What I would like to know is, do koryu contain any teachings that teach the warrior to deal with the horrors after battle? Considering how many soldiers discharge due to PTSD, and how an entire generation of men were scarred for life after Vietnam, I am curious as to whether the koryu helped warriors to deal with battlefield horrors or men were simply a product of the time and weren't affected so much. I realise asking about the highest teachings of a koryu on an online forum is asking for no reply, but any insight would be appreciated....

[Chuck.Gordon]

I don't know of specific exercises or methodologies targeting PTSD or similar post-battle effects, but many of the koryu contain esoterica designed to foster the idea of "enlightment with bloody hands" (a nod to Ellis Amdur's book Old School for the concept).

Wer the old guys affected differently? I think so. Theris was, in many cases, a rougher life, and less 'value' was placed ON human life.

Much of basic training and combat training today is built around re-coding folks. Taking young people who have been inculcated with the idea of th einherent value of human life and teaching / conditioning them to -- at least momentarily -- discard that value.

In days of yore, when kids were a renewable resource and not 'little treasures', when life was short, often violent and frequently painful, I believe it was easier to make the transition from farmer to warrior.

cg

[EddieK]

What a great question! (Former US Marine here) I think that Chuck is on the right path with his answer though.

[trevorg]

I agree, fantastic question. Maybe these links might offer an insight:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2001/2001-03-03.html

http://stripe.colorado.edu/~fredrice...r.achilles.doc

http://www.matrifocus.com/BEL03/earth.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...cine-man_x.htm

and I thought this particularly good:

http://www.londonconsortium.com/wp-c...toicsessay.pdf

Osu
Trevor

[Robert Wolfe]

Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman, in both nonfiction works and an interesting science fiction novel titled The Two-Space War, addresses how warrior cultures in the past dealt with PTSD. For references, see www.killology.com.

[meat]

Thanks for the responses and links guys, I'll go away and have a read. Hopefully this starts a good discussion

[Hissho]

Hey guys, I want to ask a question both as a budoka and a soldier. I know that the highest levels of koryu contain esoteric teachings, preparing a warrior mentally and spiritually for conflict in a way that civilian martial arts don't.
What I would like to know is, do koryu contain any teachings that teach the warrior to deal with the horrors after battle?

Seems from reading Japanese history, how they dealt with it was to shave their heads and become Buddhist monks.

[Mike Haftel]

I think they just dealt with it. Like most things in Japanese culture, people don't complain, they don't whine, etc.

If it's cold out, you don't complain (there is no central heating in Japan). According to most Japanese I've met, it's winter...you're supposed to be cold.

[John Lovato]

Most koryu are heavily influenced by religon, Shinto or Buddhism. Some had rituals to deal with the reality of taking life. I read an article that said in one ryu after you cut the enemy down you say a prayer for the man you just killed. Because while he was alive he was your enemy and it was your duty to kill them, but the moment they die they are no longer your enemy.
I found the article by Wayne Muromoto entitled Mudra In The Martial Arts. Here is the quote;

Some years later, when I was training in the Takeuchi-ryu, my own sensei informed me that I had to place my fingers a certain way when returning the sword to its scabbard. I thought it was simply an affectation of our particular style, but he then told me that I was secretly inscribing a mudra with my fingers to finish the combat, to ward off evil spirits, and to offer prayers to the dead.

"Even if the attacker was your enemy, once he's dead, he becomes a Buddha, so you should pray for his enlightenment," my sensei said. "That is the compassion of a warrior. Battle is battle, so you had to slay him, but afterwards, pray for his spirit. That is the spirit of being a bugeisha."

[Surgere]

It's not a cut and dry thing. The entire culture plays a part in it as well. Mr Grossman touches on how a soldier's acceptance back into his/her society plays a major part in reducing the chances of PTSD.

Perhaps back in the day people understood that war/violence was a necessary part of life. It sucks, but it's there and you can't pull the covers over your head and make it go away.

The soldier/warrior goes out, takes life (hopefully in the process of giving life to others), and comes back to a supportive community who knows that it was unavoidable and that the soldier/warrior is quite righteous for doing what he/she does: volunteering to have hate and bullets thrown at themselves so that others don't have to...quite righteous.

But now we have a society in which it is easy to live, a great blessing (I love my cable tv, running water, antibiotics, etc); and so people forget about reality in lieu of the comforts of an easy life. They don't understand that sometimes there is no such thing as 'good' and 'bad'; there's only 'bad' and 'worse'. And that there are still people on this great earth that give their lives just to make sure that the bad doesn't get worse.

I bet there are more people that know who shaquille o'neil is than there are that know who Master Sergeant Gary Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall Shughart are.
Priorities change and people suffer because of it. Now soldiers/warriors have to learn how to protect themselves from their own society, and that's messed up.

Moral of the story: The people in the community have the duty to respect every single thing that soldiers/warriors have to do, just as the soldiers/warriors have the duty to make sure that the innocent don't suffer.

*removes soapbox from under his extremely grateful civilian feet*

[cxt]

Meat

There are some very good responses here--excellent links.

I think Chuck has presented something to think about as well.

The more developed the country--seemingly the greater the inicdents of PTSD.

There might well be a whole can of worms here, but the idea that people might have more ready and able to handle the stresses of war back in the day when life was generally harder might be important.

[carl mcclafferty]

Folks:

As an old Vietnam combat veteran, I've been to many meetings about PTSD. have friends who have it in various degrees and have read up on it for years. I think if you study up on it, most of our era PTSD cases were not driven by the killing, but by the living. Our experience had less to do with actively wanting to kill someone, but was based on saving our brothers next to us. Us survivors of heavy combat seem to be affected by the guilt of living through the experience, while our friends died.

A culture not shared in most other regions of the world.

The Koryu arts give us something to concentrate on and Shingon teaches that everyone and everything dies in its own time. Doesn't cure PTSD, but makes you accept life as it is. Which Helps.

Just my opinion.

Carl McClafferty

[meat]

Thanks for all your thoughts guy, it has been very helpful. The killology link was great too, I'm still reading through everything there. I think I'm gaining a greater understanding of the situation as a whole, and have a couple more questions. If you don't mind my asking Mr McCafferty, does a soldier's religious view help/hinder the healing process? Reading the killology articles, there is a process that goes on around the soldier mentioned by Surgere, but what about what goes on within? You said the Shingon Buddhist view has helped you, what about the Christian guys you have known? Are there any muslims here who could perhaps explain how the Islamic faith could help an individual?

[Chuck.Gordon]

I bet there are more people that know who shaquille o'neil is than there are that know who Master Sergeant Gary Gordon and Sergeant First Class Randall Shughart are.

Agreed. I lived in Indianapolis several years, and on the Canal, near downtown, there's a Medal of Honor Monument. Every time Em and I went to down there, I stopped by to say hello to the plaque with Gary's name on it.

cg

[Chuck.Gordon]

I think if you study up on it, most of our era PTSD cases were not driven by the killing, but by the living.

THAT bears repeating. And deep study. My teach, who recently died, was an old warhorse. A Marine with two tours in Korea and three in Vietnam. He was in the thick of it more times than most folks get to watch war movies.

He suffered from no PTSD that I know of, and lived as exemplary a life as anyone I've every known. He enjoyed his life and his family and his friends, and as far as I know, never fought depression, never had suicidal thoughts, never had PTSD rages. When he left combat, he went home and left the blood on the battlefield and picked up his responsibilities and drove on. When he took off the uniform and retired, he started life anew and went through not just one more, but two more careers before he got too tired and old to work.

Another dear friend who is now a civil servant, a brilliant mind and enormous heart, spent time in both the USMC and US Army, and was, while in service, an exemplary leader and Soldier. As soon as he left the shelter of the military, he started falling apart, and the repercussions of his loss are still rocking his world. He's getting good help, but it's coming 30 years too late. His world is pretty much shambles around the edges, and the center is the only thing he's holding together.

What's the difference? I have no clue. I'm not smart enough. But I suspect it has to do with the needs of the individual and the degree of responsibility each took for his own life when he got home.

The difference is in acceptance and willingness to let go, IMHO. And I'm not very smart or educated, so tkae THAT with a big old grain of salt.

cg