Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 40

Thread: Takagi ryu / Hontai Yoshin ryu / Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,160
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Takagi ryu / Hontai Yoshin ryu / Takagi Yoshin ryu jujutsu

    This is to Todd Schweinhart and John Sims

    Hello Todd and John,

    why didn't you'll tell us about the new website?

    BTW, for everyone who wants to know it is at http://www.hyrusa.com/
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,160
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Forgot to mention that the website looks great
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    Agree totally, very nice site, well done lads.

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Louisville, KY
    Posts
    6
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default About the website

    To whom it may concern: We are really glad that you like the new HYR website. Please return regularly, as we will be making additions and updates as soon as possible after the new year. Also, if anyone would like to contribute information about issues and history related to Hontai Yoshin-ryu, please send the information along to any of us. My wife designed the site, and I administer it, so any corrections or helpful hints should go to me. Thanks, and enjoy--Brian Barnes, logician@hyrusa.com

  5. #5

    Default GREAT WEB PAGE!

    Uh, sorry George, I wasn't sure when Brian Barnes was going to place it on the web. He (and his better half) has done a great job and the page looks wonderful. I hope to contribute something in the near future. Before I send it in I will forward George a copy so that he will be the first "in the know" :^). With as much knowledge as you have it may be better for you to present something!
    Anyway the page looks great and I am sure that there will be more exciting information soon.
    Happy Holidays to all!
    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    54
    Likes (received)
    0

    Question I had problems

    The frames on the left and right sides of the page are akward depending on your size of screen..I had a hard time reading the text. The "cover" page is nicely done though.

    On a side note: I wondered how Koryu arts fair in the striking ranges alone..like all jujutsu I know that the hold escapes and pins-throws-locks are there, but I wondered how they compared in pure striking tactics and movement.Granted i did not take a koryu jujutsu/ryu art, but I was very disappointed over the striking skills taught in jujutsu when i studied..it was the guys with the karate backgrounds and jujutsu techniques that were the most effective. Jujutsu I found was very static in that grabs and attacks did not teach flow, adaptability, and principles. I have recently read some traditional jujutsu books and they impressed me much more. Why do you think these skills have been lost in modern jujutsu systems?

    Thanks.

    [Edited by Rolling Elbow on 12-24-2000 at 09:48 AM]
    Michael Panzerotti
    Certified MookJong Slayer

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Melissa, TX
    Posts
    3,160
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Re: GREAT WEB PAGE!

    Originally posted by TODD SCHWEINHART
    Uh, sorry George, I wasn't sure when Brian Barnes was going to place it on the web. He (and his better half) has done a great job and the page looks wonderful. I hope to contribute something in the near future. Before I send it in I will forward George a copy so that he will be the first "in the know" :^). With as much knowledge as you have it may be better for you to present something!
    Anyway the page looks great and I am sure that there will be more exciting information soon.
    Happy Holidays to all!
    Best,
    Todd Schweinhart
    Hi Todd,
    Sorry, didn't know that you hadn't seen it yet. BTW, you don't have to forward me anything before you send it to Mr. Barns. I prefer finding it on the website Thank you for the compliment, but I'm not that knowledgable as you or John Sims. I can't wait to see some of your contributions, and I'm not being sarcastic either. BTW, have you translated those pages that I sent you

    Happy holidays to you, Todd.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    Micheal

    This probably deserves a thread of it's own, as it is getting away from the subject here, I'll start one for you.

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Shutokukan Dojo
    Posts
    275
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Takagi ryu / Hontai Yoshin ryu / Takagi Yoshin ryu

    Hello,

    I have a little experience in both Kakuno-den Hontai Yoshin (Takagi) ryu and the Ishiya- /Mizuta-den Takagi Yoshin ryu lineage as taught in the Bujinkan/Jinenkan organizations.

    My question is why are they, at least in obvious form, so vividly different? I can't identify a single formal kata that these lines share! How did that happen?

    I have read that Minaki Sensei (Kakuno-den) "polished the techniques according to his own way of thinking, refining them for a more modern approach to budo" (from the HYR history written by John Sims on the HYR USA site). If this is the reason for the huge variation, it's clear that he polished the b'Jesus out of them!

    Any thoughts, information or leads are appreciated. Thanks!
    Eric Baluja

    Fukai kiri teme mo motenai kaku reru daizan.

  10. #10
    Guest

    Default

    Hi Eric,

    I'm not sure if the instance in Hontai Yoshin ryu is the same but it sounds like a similar situation exists in Shindo Yoshin ryu. Mainline SYR and the Takamura ryuha differ significantly (John Sims is an old student of Takamura ha SYR btw...) and the rationale for change sounds very similar.

    Ohbata Shigeta, founder of what is now the Takamura ha SYR claimed that prior to 1900, significant weapon applications were included the Shindo Yoshin ryu training syllabus. With the popularity of Judo, mainline SYR slowly discarded much of the ( old-fashioned ) weapon applications in preference to a very Judo like, taijutsu heavy curriculum. Ohbata Shigeta ( SYR, Menkyo Kaiden) claimed his ryuha maintained most of old weapon syllabus and in fact added to it with influences from Shinkage ryu, Jikishinkage ryu and several others. In the 1960's, Shigeta's grandson, Takamura Yukiyoshi re-organized the curriculum de-emphasizing the old kata in favor of a less structured and more dynamic practise based curriculum. If one now compares mainline SYR with the Takamura Ryuha they on the surface appear significantly different. Deeper investigation however will show that some of the kata are still preformed exactly the same and all the core concepts remain intact. Takamura Sensei's reasoning for the changes he made are linked to his belief that concepts and principles drive an arts identity instead of kata. As the environmental and societal realities changed in which the art existed, the techniques had to change as well to remain practical. The time honored kata are now treated as the repository of the core concepts of the art, but it's technical application ocassionally looks very un-koryu. For this reason Takamura Sensei changed the "shin" character in Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu from one that mean't "divine" to one that means "new". This was his way of signifying the his changes and avoiding confusion between the Takamura ryuha and mainline Shindo Yoshin ryu.

    We are frequently asked if we are koryu jujutsu. Mainline SYR as founded by Katsunosuke Matsuoka barely qualifies as a koryu if at all in my opinion since it was founded around 1867-8. We prefer to say the Takamura ha Shindo Yoshin ryu is a gendai tradition whose origins have traceable roots to various koryu thru mainline Shindo Yoshin ryu and it's founder Katsunosuke Matsuoka.

    I'm not an authority on Hontai Yoshin ryu by any means but the dissimilarity between the two traditions is not that surprising to me.

    Toby Threadgill

  11. #11

    Default

    Hello Eric,
    Have you started training in Hontai Yoshin Ryu? If so who have you found to train with?
    As for the HYR question, it is very similar to what Mr. Threadgill stated in regards to Shindo Yoshin Ryu. Hontai Yoshin Ryu is actually a seperate division and not actually Takagi Ryu per se. Minaki sensei kind of divided up the three schools (HYR, Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu). Although after you have studied the kata for a while you will see some "borrowed" kata in the Omote waza. The koshiki no kata are actually the Takagi Ryu kata but are also done a little differently.
    I think if you study any branch other than the xkan you will see a significant difference in teaching style and presentation of the historical kata. This also holds true for the Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu. One thing that seems to hold true for most of the branches are the yurushi waza.
    Hope this helps.

    Todd Schweinhart
    Louisville Kentucky

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Shutokukan Dojo
    Posts
    275
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Thanks!

    Toby,

    Thank you, sir. I did suspect that this might be the case regarding Ishiya-den HYR and TYR.

    Todd,

    I started training with Dr. Fabian a few months ago. However, regrettably, I have yet to see him this year. I'm trying to secure indoor training space for us near his home ('cos the ground is gettin' a lil' hard and the wind is penetratin', don'cha know!).

    Daniel,

    Gyokko ryu and HYR? You're blowing my mind, man! Where is "Koku" to be found? That's wild!

    Thanks for the help. I was only asking because it seemed so strange to me that such differences (even if just "omote" differences) could crop up within only two-or-so generations of practice.

    Please, feel free to run with this some more.

    Eric Baluja

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NSW Australia
    Posts
    260
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hi Daniel,

    How was your trip to Oz? I was hoping to catch up with and give you a Chrissy present. I'll mail to Japan if your address is still the same!

    You posted: ".....shomen-tsuki, uchikomi, gedan and shuto." I take it that gedan refers to gedan-tsuki

    As usual you post execellent info:smokin:

    By the way, have you heard of a 'Tenshin Ryu,' (not Tenshin Koryu) based in Sydney, NSW?

    Ciao,

    Paul Steadman

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NSW Australia
    Posts
    260
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hi Daniel,

    The e-mail in my profile is up to date. Look forward to hearing from you soon. I spent the beginning of the holiday season with Phil-Sensei, in outback NSW...very hot!

    I asked about Tenshin-ryu, due to an enquiry from a student of same, looking to train with us.

    On the subject of Hontai Yoshin Ryu you mentioned: "...but the refined HYR structures training into 10 toriguchi (similar training methods can be seen in Shoshowa-ryu and Yagyu Shingan-ryu)..." the concept is ingenious, I agree. The modern eclectic jujutsu (aka: ju-jitsu) one sees in Oz usually consists of a 'one (designated) attack -- one (designated) defence,' type of waza training. A given specific defence against a; wrist-grab (including frontal, rear & side attacks), , reverse wrist-grab, opposite wrist-grab, two handed single wrist-grab, double wrist grab, sleeve-grabs, elbow-grabs, shoulder-grabs, collar-grabs, hair-grabs etc etc ad-nauseum (I haven't even got to atemi-waza yet). Most Ozzie jujitsuans usually mention the lack of scope, variety and imagination in Japanese jujutsu kata, but I see a certain refined and methodical format in Japanese jujutsu kata.

    Regards,

    Paul Steadman

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    NSW Australia
    Posts
    260
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hi Daniel,

    Thanks for the information. I'll mail the package to you on the 6th of May (when we get paid ) via registered post. Look forward to receiving your e-mail update.

    Also in regards to the standard number & order of attacking techniques in some Japanese jujutsu systems eg: kata-ginu, ryo-ginu, sode-tsuki, uchi-komi, ori-dori, eri-dori & oogarami etc, are you aware of any old Japanese jujutsu systems that apply all of their signature nage waza & gyaku-waza in a kata etc against a single given specific attacking technique eg: kote-dori first, then all waza against eri-dori, then all waza against atemi etc?

    I hope you understand what I'm trying to explain . Imagine say Nage no Kata (Kodokan or HYR) but having to perform all the techniques within the kata first off against a wrist grab, until progressing onto performing all throwing techniques against a collar grab, then moving on to all techniques against an overhead strike. Anyway now that I've bored you and everyone, do you know of any Japanese systems that train in this manner and does it have a specific term?

    Cheers,

    Paul Steadman

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Takeda ryu Maroto-ha Aikijutsu/ Roland Maroteaux
    By Nathan Scott in forum Aikijujutsu
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 28th November 2006, 03:46
  2. 2002- takagi yoshin ryu
    By O'Neill in forum Ninpo and Ninjutsu
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 17th December 2002, 20:23
  3. Kiraku ryu jujutsu & aiki?
    By Nathan Scott in forum Aikijujutsu
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 11th November 2002, 21:34
  4. Origin of Iai arts
    By szczepan in forum Sword Arts Forum Message Archive
    Replies: 75
    Last Post: 19th February 2002, 15:49
  5. Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Shinden Fudo Ryu
    By geosync in forum Fumio Manaka- Jissen Kobudo Jinenkan
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10th December 2000, 15:42

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •