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Thread: Judo Is Real

  1. #31
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Richard,

    One word for you:

    PARAGRAPHS.

    No offense, it just may make your posts easier to read.

    I think when people are thinking JUJUTSU= KATA they are thinking of classical Japanese ryuha, not the more modern jujutsu styles.

    Although some of the classical schools did/do have other training methods/drills besides kata, generally kata is the primary method of instruction.

  2. #32
    efb8th Guest

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    Hi, Guys.

    There is no sense in debating whether Judo or Jujutsu or Karate is superior. My teacher taught me Judo and Jujutsu and encouraged me to learn where I could and bring any good stuff I found back to share. It's all good IF the teacher is good, and if we spend enough time in the cup, we grow stronger (as can be said of even the weakest tea).

    Sorry to sound like a fortune cookie, but there's no substitute for a lot of time if we want to understand this stuff. I've been at it for thirty-five years, and I just catch a glimmer once in a while.

    Regards,

  3. #33
    MarkF Guest

    Wink The Glimmer Man?

    So, ah, well I always did wonder who Steven Seagal was portraying in that movie and all this time, it was you, Ed?


    Mark

  4. #34
    efb8th Guest

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    Hi, Mark.

    My secret is out. (Line up in an orderly fashion to your left and be patient; everyone will get an autograph.)

    Love to all my fans,

  5. #35
    Ben Reinhardt Guest

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    Originally posted by MTripp
    Sir,

    Could you please cut and paste where I said it was "useless"?

    Putting words in my mouth prevents discussion.

    You would serve your points better if you replied to my points rather than attempting to change them to make them easier for you to deal with.

    If you have someone you feel can take that sword from me with a sai or with their bare hands, lets set that test up.

    If you have evidence of the battlefield combat where jujutsu decided the outcome, please share it.

    If you feel that kata and one steps are better than randori and shiai then explain it. If you feel your training methods are better than others, then explain that.

    Anything else is flummery and needs no comment from me.

    There were methods to disarm warriors with swords. However, they used three different weapons, all on LONG poles. And it was usually 3 on one, not one on one.

    Mark Tripp knows all this, of course. Draeger points out what Mark says in one of his books. He also points out that as time went on, and samurai/warrior skill with the sword decreased (due to the enforced peace of the Tokugawa shogunate), the poles got shorter and shorter. This happened commensurate with the rise/explosion of unarmed combatives in Japan.

    I tried to disarm a sandan in Kendo one time. All I can say is I'm glad he was using a shinai, and pulled his blows.

    Ben Reinhardt

  6. #36
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    Originally posted by rsamurai2
    the way we practice these is a fully committed attack by uke and a fully committed defense. ... the attacks and defenses are done full force. at least in my style.
    I hope you can see that what you state is utterly Impossible. If this were true you would soon run out of training partners.

    Also, being a bouncer at a nightclub you probably didn't get many opportunties to use your deadly karate punches (at least I hope not).

    If you had, you would have quickly discovered that in REAL fights the probabilty of breaking your hand while striking is extremely HIGH. A broken hand is utterly useless for both striking and grappling.

    Also don't forget about the likelyhood of disease transmission when pounding your cut knuckles into another person's blood.

  7. #37
    rsamurai2 Guest

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    Originally posted by John Bennett


    I hope you can see that what you state is utterly Impossible. If this were true you would soon run out of training partners.

    first this is not impossible. we don't do this with white belts these are upper belt techs and training. i have been doing this for 15 years, and i know many dojos both karate and jujutsu that train this way. with your logic you can't practice arm bars or certain throws because of injury. i can easily throw you with an ippon seio and break your neck just by lowering my balance (spreading my leggs further apart
    and pulling you over my back instead of around it like lower belts often do) so i guess we shouldn't use this technique any more, to dangerous to do full contact. let me crank your arm with an armbar and that will break to, whoops better not train with this anymore to dangerous. come on people this is supposed to be a martial art. you are going to get hurt. expect it.

    we had a saying when i first started training," if you ain't bleeding, you ain't training" now who do you think is better at pulling off techniques someone who trains like me, or someone who only trains the most safest way?

    Also, being a bouncer at a nightclub you probably didn't get many opportunties to use your deadly karate punches (at least I hope not).

    because of legal ramifications you are correct. but at the higher levels of training you learn how to blend and break balance, much like aikido. karate is not a good style for this line of work. but for sake of argument in karate you learn to use hard punches to soft targets and softer strikes , like palm heel to hard targets( the head)

    If you had, you would have quickly discovered that in REAL fights the probabilty of breaking your hand while striking is extremely HIGH. A broken hand is utterly useless for both striking and grappling.

    no argument here!

    Also don't forget about the likelyhood of disease transmission when pounding your cut knuckles into another person's blood.
    again you are correct!

  8. #38
    rsamurai2 Guest

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    one day i will learn how to quote, just read my post and the one above and like most of my writting, try and figure out what is being said.

  9. #39
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    I too am kinda lost on this part of the forum where is this suppose to be going anyway? As for my input on this manner I feel that you can only practice Self-defense to a practical point before you start compromising safety and common sense. Where i teach we allow for a type of Randori that is Self defense orientated but using an Uki-Tori randori format. All of my Judoka are told go committed but go at a speed confrontable with the Technique you are using and the type of attack you are trying to defend against. I have found it is safer this way, allows things to go fast to be more reality based but slow enough to learn what you are doing wrong or how to make it better while giving the Uki the chance to Tap out. Don't know how other people or schools do it but i found this way to be practical and safe.
    William "Kamikazesan" Kincaid
    Aikido/Judo/Jyodo

  10. #40
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by rsamurai2
    one day i will learn how to quote, just read my post and the one above and like most of my writting, try and figure out what is being said.
    Hi, Richard, et al.,
    Go to the bottom of the page where it gives the different kinds of tags or "code" on or available. VBulletin code is available for help in quoting, etc. Click on the link and scroll to the directions for your specific problems with code/tags.

    To separate your answers and put them within the same quote, just close the bold tag, write your response, then reopen it for the next block with the bold tag. That is one manner, at least. If you know HTML, you may use that as well. It is similar, to a point.


    Hope this helps.

    Mark

    PS: You can also close open tags by clicking "Close Current Tag" above the posting box on the post/reply page.

  11. #41
    MarkF Guest

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    Originally posted by rsamurai2
    i can easily throw you with an ippon seio and break your neck just by lowering my balance...
    Uh huh. Most know this and is why the IJF has a specific rule against it called "diving." The thing is, you wouldn't do it, would you, in practice or randori?

    You can also lower your center by dropping to both knees using seoinage or seoiotoshi (the difference is one of loading or continuing the throw downward instead of lifting), but instead of guiding the head downwards, you guide it to one side or the other. Spreading your legs outward is not advisable due to losing your balance, but throwing the leg to your rear in seoinage, does help to lower one's center, too, or drop to a knee. This way, you avoid losing your balance.

    No matter how you explain it for dojo use, *some* rule applies if you admit you don't use the technique to purposely hurt your partner. You can practice dakiage (body slam technique) also, even though it isn't practiced in randori, but you still practice it, though without the force you may use in an "encounter."

    The throws closest to diving are those mentioned plus uchi mata.

    I think that is the point being made, in particular, by John Bennett. You just can't disable a partner and say "next." Some control is always necessary.

    Mark

  12. #42
    rsamurai2 Guest

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    Mark,
    I don't think that is what is being said, also I believe you missed my point. We practice full out on our techniques in jujutsu, all these techniques that people say can not be practiced that way is simply only repeating a myth. They can be practiced that way and we do it. When I studied karate we had full contact punches to the body with no gloves on. Did it kill us? No! Did we do this with beginners? No but we brought them up by striking them harder and harder as they progressed through the ranks. Same with my jujutsu. We don't slam a white belt with a hard punch to the chin than step behind them and throw them with o soto, and lock the arm or wrist after they hit the ground. But! At sankyu and above we do. No one gets hurt. First your focus is up, and secondly this is how you trained. Read some of the history and American kenpo and how those guys trained in the 40's. My point is no matter what style you practice you can practice full out. Is there a chance of injury? Of course. Read my above post. (Btw that wasn't meant to be done on purpose but on accident. a beginner often doesn’t throw correctly and spreads his legs to keep his balance, thus lowering his stance and giving uke less time to roll out. that was my point there.)

    Judo is my third style. All three I have practiced full out. If we were to follow the model that only judo can be practiced full out because of randori, than we would have no fighters in the k1, pride, and pancrase or shoot fighting arenas. And I dare you to tell these people they don't train full out. Or anybody who competes in the ufc.
    I hope this makes my point. This is not to say that judo is inferior at all. I run a judo dojo, I promote judo in the community, and I have all of my nephews in judo. I am only stating that judo isn't the only style that can be practiced full out. If it were than karate, jujutsu and kung fu would have died out eons ago.

  13. #43
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Lets be REASONABLE...Sheesh

    DELETED. It's no longer worth the time....
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 10th February 2002 at 22:50.

  14. #44
    rsamurai2 Guest

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    Kit,
    First there is no need to be ugly!
    I think what we have here is an agreement on the same issue but because this is done post by post and not a real life conversation we have what is called a communication breakdown.
    Based on your post I agree with you 100%. When I said we practice full out, I didn't include eye gouges or the nasty stuff you mentioned. Of course we don't grab each other’s eyes. But when we grapple we put our fingers close to the eyes. We do push against the face, something not legal in judo competition. I never intended to say we broke arms or pushed joints to far. What I was trying to convey was that we punch each other, no pads. We lock more than just the elbow. We lock and throw but most importantly we do have some kind of rules we follow for safety. You people on this Internet crack me up. Everything is black and white NO GREY! BECAUSE I SAY I DON'T LIKE THE RULES IN COMPETITION JUDO you read,"I don't like any rules under any circumstances" I never alluded to that and I never said that. What I said is I don't like the rules in competition judo. I have fought under different sets of rules all my life. The ones that are more” realistic" are those of mma or of sport jujutsu (like the us jujitsu federation) an organization I am thinking of joining because of the rules of competition. Hell I have been thinking about competing again under this venue. Judos ijf rule structure, I believe is what is holding judo back in the U.S. and as sport judoka train mostly for shiai, and what is allowed in shiai; they develop a certain condition reflex that is dangerous if they think these are the street techniques. My original post some months ago had to do with fighting like you train. You all read into it that I was anti judo and I don't believe in rules. All I meant was a karate fighter in a real fight wont throw. even if he knows how to because he mostly trains in striking techs. And a sport judoka wont punch, he tries and looks for a throw because that is how he trains. I only advocate cross training. The karateka should learn to throw even though this is usually outside his system. But we has judoka don't have to go outside our system to strike. It is there. We have atemi waza. Most judoka never learn it though because of the emphasis on sport. Here is where my problem lies.

    As for your comment about me bouncing. I never saw a fight go to the ground. There usually were 2 drunk guys or an irate /jealous boyfriend swing wildly at another guy swinging wildly back at him. Because of my jujutsu background (my style is very aikido like) I never had to punch I used my karate blocks and just locked wrists and elbows and shoulders. We were told if we struck anybody we could be sued or arrested.

    Now do we understand my position? In summary I understand rules, I favor some types of rules, I don't like ijf rules, I do believe in competition and I believe martial arts should be taught as fighting systems/self defense systems with a sporting aspect to them as a training tool. Not sports first and never learn the self-defense and/or kata techniques. And my definition of all out training is only encompassing strikes, kicks all locks and throw mixed in with randori. Look up the rules for competition on www.usjujitsu.net these are the rules I believe judo should encompass even if judo doesn’t want to incorporate the striking parts.

  15. #45
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Talking DOH!

    Didn't delete in time.... That's okay. Richard, nothing personal. In general we agree, yer right.

    BTW, have you seen the new "traditional jujutsu" sport in Japan? You can punch, kick, throw, and grapple. They are trying to get it into the Olympics, apparently. There is an article about it in the new "Fightsport" MMA mag published by Black Belt. Probably right up your alley.

    'bye.

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