Likes Likes:  0
Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 135

Thread: Sparring vs. Kata

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Long Beach,CA
    Posts
    32
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I wish some aikijiujitsu guys would fight in a submission grappling or Mixed Martial Art tournament. Personally I'd like to see somebody show the effectiveness of aikijiujitsu techniques against a trained and motivated opponent. Some "advanced" students/teachers should step up and uphold the reputation of aikijiujitsu against all comers. It would cool to see a submission grappler pinned down by an aiki master. It would be even better to see an aiki master throw down a submission grappler with flick of a wrist. I wait for that day...

  2. #47
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Meynard
    I have done some of the things you have listed-and you are mistaken if you think that AJJ people cannot differentiate between Kata training as opposed to the real deal. Some train Kata only-others don't. Most I've met are very grounded, well rounded artists who moved to it from other arts-many kick boxers, BJJer's, judoka etc etc.. Others are like the typical cross section MA hobbyist-people wanting to have an involvement in Budo without risking much. I like my expression of my arts to be edgy. I have fought freestyle with different fighters. While most people don't want to play with Boxers, PKers judoka and what not I think its fun. It has been my experience that the principles work-if not the artists involved. Sorry it requires a little more than a flick of the wrist for me though. I will say that the principles and body mechanics in AJJ work very well fighting in a heightened aggression environment and work to control an opponent to a choke or lock. But I don't think many will train to use the techniques in that venue. Many people just won't go that far in their training. Nor do they have to.

    You shouldn't judge nor dismiss an art for its ability in the ring only. Many things I would personally do with a fighter (hell many things I do every week in the dojo) an LEO could not do without getting into >serious< trouble.
    Hence you need a broad cirriculum.
    And other things that work to restrain a drunk or out of control spouse -would not come close to controling a fighter-hence a broad cirriculum
    See what I mean bud?
    Different things have their place. And AJJ offers that, as it had the same problem in dealing with a general populace in its history.

    It seems that you-like me, want more edgy training. That's great. Go do it-I do. But that doesn’t sell all styles of grappling in my book. There is a new wave of floor moppers in jujutsu. I love ne-waza like the rest of them-but going to the floor to fight in public is the stupidest thing a human being should ever do these days. I got a boot in the head once by an uninvolved bystander for my trouble. Do I say BJJ is no good now? Of course not!! Even the Gracies acknowledge that the U.S. is different and they need to concentrate on more stand up Jujutsu in their Aikido Journal interview. Free style one on one is a very narrow field of focus for a complete art don't you think?.
    As for its ability to train fighters -it- like everything else has limits in both the people involved and in the art itself. Do you go all out in the dojo to train in grappling? Most don't Meynard. Your not going to punch, elbow and use temple shots in the dojo to train-only to fight. Nor will you use many throat/face/Jaw options that are just as easy to apply as a choke but destroy the training partner.
    Training is training
    Fighting is fighting.
    The real key is finding someone who knows the difference and doesn't have their heads in the clouds. It has been my experience that there are quite a few fellows in Aikijujtsu who know the difference right well from experience - as well as those who couldn't fight their way out of the proverbial sack.
    But the same goes for any art bud.
    I happen to think the world of Good Judo-but I have met my share of inept peple who do it. Doesn't change my opinion of Judo.
    I do not like Aikido much at all-But I have met some capable people who happen to love it and can handle themselves quite well-hasn't changed my opinion of Aikido though.

    Overall, good jujutsu (which is the basis of AJJ) is just simply good. As a broad and complete art I will take jujutsu /judo over anything I have seen. A common mistake people make in viewing or even those who demonstrate AJJ is to go right for the Aiki. The tradional approach- to be grounded in jujutsu and work your way through it learning the proper angles, vectors and sensitivety to an opponents movement as well as learning to to deal with agresssion-and then to move through this with Aiki training has validity on many levels. Seing someones ability to control a limited attack in a dojo or demo is indicative of their level of skill "in" AJJ-not fighting. The same goes for any art.
    Though I dearly love Judo-I had to make this point to a "Judo is the best ever" friend of mine-he wanted to fight to show Judo could handle realistic encounters- and it can very well in the right hands.
    First thing he did was lunge and grab me. I slapped him (sumo cupped style) really hard in the head and controlled his neck with it. He got all pissed off. I said "I thought you said you wanted to fight?"

    I don't know if this helped explain my point of view, think you need a broader outlook-though I appreciate your doubts.
    Good luck in your training

    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 10th February 2002 at 12:17.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    135
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Gentlemen,

    After reading the initial post on this thread I feel compelled to put some things into perspective. The first being that jujutsu/aikijujutsu from a classical perspective is a lethal force engagement art. This means that they were designed to be used in conjunction with edged weapon combat in a multiple opponent environment. In this environment size means very little just as it does not in modern lethal force engagements. As my friend and Army buddy Nick Saganis used to say, a hundred pound gook with an AK is as big as anybody your ever going to meet.

    The time to solution in these environments virtually precludes grappling in the BJJ/UFC sense as a solution. You may be winning the engagement and lose the war as solutions that take longer than a few seconds will get you killed by someone else in that environment. Holding space also leads to real problems, when the mail is being delivered at 2,700 fps it is best not to spend any time in a force vector.

    Punching and kicking also has little effect when faced with class 4 body army, ballistic goggles, kevlar helmets etc. And even if your opponent is out of ammo in his primary weapon, an 8 pound piece of steel that makes a pretty good striking tool, he usually has a knife and a sidearm. The last time I tried it a knife made passing the guard pretty easy.

    Bjj is a sport art that has fighting applications in controlled one on one environments. UFC style competitions are also sport based that have fighting applications, neither are suitable for combat and neither work well against multiple opponents. Judging a system based on one practitioner outside of the prime parameters of the art, i.e. edged weapons combat, is short sighted and smacks of being self serving.

    James Williams
    James Willliams
    Kaicho
    Nami ryu

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    135
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Gentlemen,

    After reading the initial post on this thread I feel compelled to put some things into perspective. The first being that jujutsu/aikijujutsu from a classical perspective is a lethal force engagement art. This means that they were designed to be used in conjunction with edged weapon combat in a multiple opponent environment. In this environment size means very little just as it does not in modern lethal force engagements. As my friend and Army buddy Nick Saganis used to say, a hundred pound gook with an AK is as big as anybody your ever going to meet.

    The time to solution in these environments virtually precludes grappling in the BJJ/UFC sense as a solution. You may be winning the engagement and lose the war as solutions that take longer than a few seconds will get you killed by someone else in that environment. Holding space also leads to real problems, when the mail is being delivered at 2,700 fps it is best not to spend any time in a force vector.

    Punching and kicking also has little effect when faced with class 4 body army, ballistic goggles, kevlar helmets etc. And even if your opponent is out of ammo in his primary weapon, an 8 pound piece of steel that makes a pretty good striking tool, he usually has a knife and a sidearm. The last time I tried it a knife made passing the guard pretty easy.

    Bjj is a sport art that has fighting applications in controlled one on one environments. UFC style competitions are also sport based that have fighting applications, neither are suitable for combat and neither work well against multiple opponents. Judging a system based on one practitioner outside of the prime parameters of the art, i.e. edged weapons combat, is short sighted and smacks of being self serving.

    James Williams
    James Willliams
    Kaicho
    Nami ryu

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Planet Earth
    Posts
    47
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Awesome dialog!!!

    Nathan, Kit, thanks for taking the time to so eloquetly state your opinions and relate the facts. It is great to have your perspectives.

    A couple of posts indicate some axes to grind...those are fun too!

    I have been is a limited number of ‘street fights’ 8 that I can think of, won seven, lost one, and spent plenty of time in the dojo with those as reference points. Folks from a variety of disciplines come in to the dojo and we regularly let them try their hand.
    I have operated in serveral countries and along the U.S./Mexican border as part of a Naval Special Warfare SEAL platoon doing what SEAL's do.

    I know of several more real world engagements represented by a couple of posters on this thread that also see practicality of AJJ. The real value of AJJ for me is its absolute relevance to modern CQC in multiple adversaries, lethal force environment. That is all participants in the fight have weapons.

    Don Angier has repeatedly stated that Yanagi Ryu AJJ was originally a school of military strategy. The techniques were “merely” physically manifestations of the principles.

    Although I only know a few of them, the ones I know have proven to be spot on in the small realm that I deal with. I have also had great success passing them on in a relatively simplistic manner and training methodology to operators that have to function in the real world vice the dojo. I have many, many e-mails from folks that have prevailed in gunfights, prison riots, and arrest and control situations following the training they received through the SureFire Institute. They attribute much of their success to the specific training that they received. I attribute much of the personality of my training to James Williams and Don Angier. Although Don has never directly worked with me in my unique environment, his perspective of combat has permeated my psyche.

    Boxing, BJJ, Judo strategies don’t apply in a projectile-based conflict as I see it, as they are specifically tailored toward defeating one adversary in a relatively controlled situation.

    Caveat: I think boxing, BJJ, and Judo are awesome in their own right and the study of them definitely assist any practitioner of Combatives to be more proficient in a variety of situations and environment.

    I am not studying self-defense per se. I KNOW there are many, many out there that can mop the floor with me in a format of 1 on 1, octagon. Nor could I consistently execute clean AJJ techniques against a skilled adversary in a 1 on 1 confrontation. That is not my focus. Working on it when I can.

    My understanding of the history of Daito Ryu AJJ reads that Takada did mop the floor with all comers. Wish I could do the same!!!

    The last time I was teaching a Combatives class out at Fort Campbell Kentucky with 5th Special Forces Group, I specifically asked if anybody had BJJ experience or had taken the Gracie courses that were being offered. Several folks raised hands. I was wearing body armor, a helmet, 3 weapons, boots, tac-vest etc. I let one of the individuals who had this experience with the Gracie methodology get really close. I told him that my M4 carbine was no longer functioning and asked him to execute his techniques to finish me. As he went for a double leg takedown and tried to cover my pistol, I simply unveiled a 7” tanto, which I simulated to everyone else that was watching that this gentleman’s overall strategy was not going to be sufficient in this environment, it was not formulated to be.

    Boxing, Judo would also have little to offer in terms of solutions.

    I also believe in order to train to be truly functional you must fight. You must hit and be hit, thow and be thrown, joint-lock and be locked. Fear of pain is a wonderful teacher. I like to think there is a better way, but I have not seen it. Technique after technique in isolation of unknown variables is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. What is obviously missing is the psychological pressure and physical reality of making a mistake.

    That being said, you can train in AJJ through progressive sparring methodologies once you have the proper understanding of principle and technical proficiency. I cannot say what goes on in the Yanagi Ryu dojo as I have never had the privilege to train there. As James has mentioned Systema in a previous post, the Systema folks have addressed this reality through their “slow sparring” practice and other methodologies.

    We have altered our AJJ training to include some of training practices based on Systema. I don’t want to turn this into a what is Systema post, but if you seriously look at Systema, in my opinion you are looking a living, breathing AJJ principle-based art expressed in the modern era that is coming out of Russia that is highly effective and has a steep learning curve.

    I will leave you with this. My own personal view of the boyz at Yanagi Ryu. With a sword or any other classical edged weapon in their hand, I would not like to venture too close. Unarmed, they understand the technical details and can articulate principles that will help any serious practitioner who is listening. Delivering the goods in the moment against a mixed-martial artist specialist or BJJ practitioner in a ring setting, I think a few of them would have a difficult time. This is not their focus as I see it. I could be wrong.

    I plan on learing from and respecting folks reguardless of whether or not I think they can kick my ass or submit me in this format or that.

    Hell the other day, Jame's 21 year-old son submitted me with an arm bar when I got a little sloppy. I LEARNED from the kid who I can still see as a 12 year old. When I tried to regain my pride it took 20 minutes for me to submit him. I absolutely loved it!
    He is a good grappler. Next time I might not fair so well. Can he apply AJJ in my realm, nope not yet.

    Just because one can or cannot grapple does not mean they understand the dynamics of close quarter, mulitple adversary, weapons based, lethal force environments.

    I hold all of the Yanagi Ryu students in the highest respect and plan on learning more from them in the future. They work hard, train intelligently and are willing to pass on what they know to others that are seeking. For that I sincerely thank them. They have unknowing probably saved the lives of a few that I have interacted with.

    I apologize for any thread drift.

    I stand ready to be recalibrated….
    Ken J. Good
    Strategos International
    http://stategosintl.com
    [/url]

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,714
    Likes (received)
    153

    Default

    James wrote:

    "Bjj is a sport art that has fighting applications in controlled one on one environments. UFC style competitions are also sport based that have fighting applications, neither are suitable for combat and neither work well against multiple opponents. Judging a system based on one practitioner outside of the prime parameters of the art, i.e. edged weapons combat, is short sighted and smacks of being self serving."

    That's a point I have been trying to make for years -- not just in respect to multiple opponents, but for arena competition vs. combat and/or survival in general. It's understandable that people see what goes on in a UFC arena and think, "Wow! That's the most effective thing I've ever seen!" when a BJJer gets his opponent on the mat. They forget that the rules, environment and purpose of the "fight" all influence its outcome as well as the way that the "combatants" both train and engage. This is true for the PKers as for the grapplers.

    Ritual battle begets its own curriculum and mode of engagement. The world of life-or-death combat by necessity is different. Its only rule is the "law of the jungle."

    If competition using multiple opponents were to become popular, we would likely see a whole new curriculum and set of rules emerge regarding such competitions. Hmmm... I think football already has them.

    This isn't to say that you can't adapt an individual art or system into something effective *for you* in the circumstances you're in. As Dan said earlier, a good fighter can make a system work for him, despite the flaws in that system. You work with the tool kit you're given, and refine it as best you can.

    However,in the way we develop and utilize our tool kit, we can't have it all. We either train for sport, and stay within that focus, or we train for "street survival," for military combat or for law enforcement and make that our specialty. Each area has its unique set of issues that must be addressed in and by the strategic and tactical methods tailored to those disciplines.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 11th February 2002 at 17:56.
    Cady Goldfield

  7. #52
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default My $200.....

    Keep getting drawn back in...

    I can point out several classical grappling methods with a great deal of ground control tactics, many similar to those of BJJ (which comes from Judo, which came from those self same classical jujutsu schools...).

    Certainly they usually include the use of weapons....but BJJ/Judo has many techniques and strategies which are readily adapted back to combative forms, yet with still more technical savvy.

    I have, repeatedly, used a handful of methods and tactics learned from BJJ and Judo, informed by a few years study in a classical art that addressed a lot of ground positions with weapons, and it works just fine for me.......in situations which began and finished without weapons being presented. Though they were certainly present in all of them (mine) and for both of us in a few of them.

    Would I choose Judo or BJJ against a guy that came running at me with a knife, or sword, or gun drawn? HELL no. I would use Heckler Koch-jutsu, and use tai sabaki and other things much more in common with weapons arts than close body contact grappling. Different tactics for different situations.

    Would I "pull guard" and bring a combative suspect on top of me in the street . No. BJJ does not recommend doing so in a street fight, either, and considering the guys getting pounded unconscious in the ring by trying this tactic on wrestlers and strikers, you are seeing less and less of it.

    In a real fight, I want to be on top. Training in BJJ and Judo gives me a tremendous advantage in gaining just that top position from a close grappling situation...plus the ability to change to a top control position from the bottom if I end up there, and KEEP it once I get on top.



    Things don't always START armed. Weapons are presented in some but lethal force is not always justified...this DOES occur in reality, and fairly frequently for law enforcement. Remember it is VERY easy to sit back in the knowedge that chances are infinitesmal you will ever have to make a lethal force decision, but speak in terms of how you WOULD use it while critiqueing those that actually have to make such decisions on a regular basis (Ken and James exempted, as they are aware of this environment and experienced in it.)

    NEWS FLASH, except for an armed lethal force tactical environment (which I am experienced and trained in, though only the past few years), the rest of you will most likely be faced with an unarmed combatant in a non-lethal force environment. That encounter will also often occur by surprise, and at very close range, and thus very quickly be a body contact to body contact fight. It will start with the beer bottle smashing against your head from the back, you will be bulldogged over, and several people may jump upon you, kick and knee drop you in the head in a manner of seconds. This is a COMMON type of assault call that we run to in law enforcement.

    ANY unarmed martial artist (okay, I'll give you a tactical folding knife since most carry this, it won't change things), including the BJJ-er, is toast in this situation. You will have only your will to survive, and no martial art can give you that.

    NO martial arts skills can defeat multiple motivated opponents without a weapon. There is a well known story about a Rickson Gracie seminar in which an aikidoka in attendance pointed out that his art was created to deal with multiple opponents. Rickson asked him to demonstrate this vs. Rickson and his son, who was at the time something like 13 years old. Rickson whispered to his son and the test commenced. Rickson began moving toward the aikidoka and this man, not entirely with his head up his ass, focussed on the more dangerous threat while attempting to position out to keep Baby Rickson in his sight. Ultimately he was forced to deal with the oncoming Rickson and as he turned his attention to him Baby Rickson took out his legs from behind. The denoument I will leave to your imagination. I submit even the unarmed aikijujutsuka would suffer the same fate.

    I think it is a hollow sentinment indeed to say "well, I woulda beat 'em if I had a sword!" Besides, add the sword and Rickson would probably say "fine, I'll just use my gun."

    BJJ/Judo CAN apply in law enforcement and street situations with certain caveats. You can't think of the street as the competition or training mat, however. SImply because someone practices BJJ does not mean they are unable to transfer skills to the street, or fight in a different manner on the street. Frankly Judo/BJJ TRAINING has made the more classically oriented controls I use in the weapons based environment MORE effective, because I am used to working against active resistance. As a police officer and tactical team member I cannot simply toss someone down and hope they will stay there, I have to control them once they get to the ground while also trying to be aware of the environment, his possible weapons and the ones I KNOW I have. BJJ has tremendously helped me in this area. Being skilled in a top control position also makes it easier for me to DISENGAGE if need be to transition to a different level of force.


    The guard can be useful on the street. It is admittedly a bad position to be in for the real world.

    As I type, I am looking at a Surefire Institute Training Course Catalog (don't have the date) showing Arrest and Control Defensive Tactics and Prevailing in a Ground engagement (pp. 6-7) which shows James in:

    - Mounted position with the "Cobra" position from BJJ. This is the primary street engagement and MMA ring position BJJ teaches because you can control the opponent completely and strike at will. James looks like he's ready to throw a palm strike, but it also allows weapons deployment.

    - On his back using the Spider Gaurd against a man attacking with a hand strike from standing position. Again, a BJJ technique, though I was taught a similar method in a classical art against a knife attack when you are on your back, and, INDEPENDENTLY, in a law enforcement ground survival course.

    - On his back with the subject in his guard and performing a reverse ude garami. This particular lock/position is also useful in weapon's retention.

    - On his back, with the subject in his gaurd and performing kata gatame, a staple of Judo and BJJ training.



    The guard is also better than other positions that someone untrained in effective groundfighting methods will almost certainly end up in against a halfway decent grappler. Don't worry, though.....people with high school, college, or outside of school wrestling experience NEVER get into fights.

    Our department is now training weapon retention from the ground while accessing backup weapons....easier said than done when dealing with a striking, struggling person locked with you on the ground. BJJ helps a great deal in this area. It is utterly foolish to convince yourself you will never be there.

    Ken, your example with the military BJJ-er is well taken....but in reality I cannot simply cut a man's throat who has taken me down, even in a tactical environment. I also wonder what would happen if as you were going down and transitioning to your blade HE produced his...I don't doubt you would probably use some form of guard in conjunction with knife methods to solve that situation.....your alternative is to give him a superior position, with you on your back on the ground and both armed with an edged weapon.....

    The gaurd used properly also provides opportunities to gain the space to transition to handgun if need be. The handgun will be much quicker to deploy from a side carry position than the tactical folder in your pocket. Probably not quicker than a vest mounted combat knife, but then again I am not in a position to deal with EVERY fight I get in wearing a tac vest.

    Indeed due to the shock troop nature of SPEED, SURPRISE and AGGRESSIVE ACTION dynamic entries, (DD's or "flash bangs" really mess with people who are not used to them going off ) rarely do you have to go hands on with actively resisting subjects. They tend to be so freaked out they drop like 10 lbs of shite in a 5 lb. bag with a push, a head control takedown or the good 'ol front kick.
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 11th February 2002 at 17:10.

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Planet Earth
    Posts
    47
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Ramblings

    Actually Kit,

    The example I gave was not to cut his throat but to plunge the knife into his kidney and then spine...it that O.K. in your line of work?

    Seriously, I am not down on BJJ quite the contrary. I am glad it is a regular part of our training. In many situations, the skill set and jujitsu strategy is MOST USEFUL.

    What I was trying to address is the original post that because one member of an AJJ dojo went to another system/dojo and found out that he could not deal with the realities of BJJ or whatever, that that AJJ approach was not sufficient. And furthermore that the person or his teacher has the ability to properly access the relevance of AJJ in the modern realm of military combat. AJJ was bred out of realities of military close quarter combat, not bar room brawls or sport competition.

    Competitions\simmulations come when you can't really do it for whatever reason. UFC IS NOT reality in terms of CQC. Are the participants formidable, capable of ramping it up further? In many cases the answer is a resounding yes! Would I want to face many of them? No. Does UFC - mixed martial arts teach us anything, absolutely. Do I abandon the study of AJJ because they can kick butt in the octagon? Nope. Two different worlds and end games.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the strategy of BJJ is to establish the proper distance, close safely, take the opponent down, maintain full body contact, establish position while maintaining full body contact, finish.

    Try holding somebody in the closed guard when they have body armor w/plates covered with fully loaded tac vest. It adds a whole new dimension to "rolling around". Everything is a weapon, your helmet, his helmet, your loaded M16 mags, your flashlight. All can be produced and employed from a wide variety of angles. Bringing this type of engagement to the ground as a primary strategy is a mistake.

    IF you find yourself down there, the ability to maintain composure from having been there before is a definite plus and only comes from being there, but I am essentially going to employ Aiki. Not going to fight per se, just calmly call my partner over to put a bullet in his brain bucket, while he is grappling with me.

    Different point: Kit, I agree with you, that most are not armed most of the time. I think that is a mistake in and of itself.

    I therefore study that which is most relevant to me as well as the clients I deal with, who are armed. Everybody finds their niche and works it.


    Different point:
    Getting smashed in the head with a beer bottle at a bar. Easy for me, I take the “classical approach” and generally stay away from them unless I am armed and keep my back to a wall as much as possible and a keep an eye on a known exit.

    One of the more recent engagements I was involved in was in a pool hall/bar. Just went to play pool after some CQC training. Apparently I was at somebody else’s table, although they were not using it for the past 30 minutes. Push came to shove. I pulled out a SureFire 6P flashlight, flashed it in the guys face, that was quickly followed up with a ASP strike to his clavicle which he never saw me produce with my other hand. I then moved quickly (as in ran) to the exit and left the place with my partner. I was not going to wait to find out how the local Police were going to react to me using an ASP in the state of Texas.

    He buddies had pool cues and pool balls, but they were so stunned at how fast it was over that the never assisted their friend. Their will to fight was over.

    In my opinion, this is Aiki in action in terms of strategy. I don’t like taking it up the teeth…generally not a smart thing to do. Blending, flanking, producing weapons quickly, “not being there” for your opponent to base himself, unbalance your opponent (in this case the light did it), are all basic, basic Aiki concepts.

    Aiki is not technique in my mind. Aikijujutsu strategies are not the only ones out there and therefore I don’t "hide behind" them giving myself a false sense of security. For me, fights are always extremely serious and I go into them with the reality that I may get maimed or killed. I plan to prevail and don’t look back. It gets down the one who can make his or her strategy stick in the heat.
    Last edited by kenjgood; 11th February 2002 at 19:02.
    Ken J. Good
    Strategos International
    http://stategosintl.com
    [/url]

  9. #54
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Same Language...

    Ken,

    We are speaking the same language.

    Some will see the UFC and a BJJ-ka and assume that is all BJJ is useful for, or that the BJJ approach will be exactly the same in the Octagon as in a combative engagement. Then again, it takes some experience in the field to understand how to begin adapting BJJ methods to modern CQC, and when they would be appropriate, and HOW they would be used with what desired outcome, if at all. Same with classical jujutsu, I would argue.

    For an classical JJ-ka to feel that because he got submitted on the mat in groundwork, or even a one on one streetfight that went to the ground, that he therefore does not know how to apply CJJ to an armed environment is also not true, and I would hark back to your personal examples.

    When I visit, I hope to hit the mats with you. I *may* (I don't know) have more chops on the ground in Judo/BJJ matwork than you do. I don't for a minute believe that I would be able to translate that into being able to come even close to you head to head in an armed confrontation environment when we are both in tactical gear and gunned up. Even if it did go to the ground.

    I would argue that besides James and some in your immediate circle that practice this all the time, no aikijujutsuka/classical jujutsuka would either.

    Personally I would rather be able to function at some level in both situations. While some of us may go about armed everyday, it does not mean that even a decent percentage of confrontations will be resolved through lethal force. Most will be far more appropriately dealt with using simple takedowns and pins which both CJJ and Judo/BJJ have, many of which are similar technically and tactically.

    In either instance, CJJ and BJJ are better adapted to CQC by those with an actual understanding of the CQC environment. Simply stating "CJJ is a battlefield art. I am skilled in it, therefore, I have an advantage or am therefore more skilled in a lethal CQC encounter" doesn't make it reality. When BJJ/Judo is narrowly dismissed as only useful for sport due to the way they are practiced for and shown in competition, it doesn't address how ANY martial art needs to be viewed thru the appropriate lens to understand their application in CQC situations.

    I am trying to say that NEITHER position is correct. BOTH have useful elements applicable to different facets of the totality of CQC when evaluated with the right experience and understanding.

    Clearly Surefire understands this, as I mentioned above, you guys teach some of the same methods I am talking about in the course description and have photos of James using them.

    BTW, funny you mentioned the partner administering the bullet in the brain bucket while you remain calm...we just trained the very same thing in our last SWAT CQC training block....funny how it is that AJJ-ka and BJJ-ka /Judoka came up with the same thing when looking at the CQC environment.

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    280
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    pulled out a SureFire 6P flashlight, flashed it in the guys face, that was quickly followed up with a ASP strike to his clavicle which he never saw me produce with my other hand. I then moved quickly (as in ran) to the exit and left the place with my partner.. . . In my opinion, this is Aiki in action in terms of strategy.

    This is great stuff. This is the best description of "aiki" that I have yet come across. Surely, you must have a menkyo kaiden in aiki?

    Best,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Iraq/Chicago
    Posts
    31
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Excellent posts so far by Mssrs. Williams, Good, and LeBlanc. Even though much of what I feel on this subject has been already stated by one or more of you, I felt inclined to drop my $.02 into the mix.

    Two essential doctrinal suppositions for all those in the profession of arms, whether police or military, when engaged in CQC:

    1) ALL participants are assumed to be armed

    2) there is ALWAYS more than one opponent

    Training drills should reflect the doctrine and strategy required in one's anticipated operational environment.

    Having said that, I feel that training drills besides kata are essential to developing practical fighting ability. sparring is an important drill. (actually more than one-there are many kinds of sparring) Others, such as a Tony Blauer's Panic Attack drill, are also invaluable when developing the attributes necessary to apply skills learned in kata in real situations.

    BJJ is a wonderful art with many sublimely effective techniques, and I fully intend to continue learning as much as I can from it. I have also trained in Judo, JKD, and Kali/Arnis as well as teaching Shotokan Karate. I have found all of these arts to have techniques and training methods which are efficient and valuable. But the only art I have trained in which doctrinally matches what I have experienced in my law enforcement and military career is Aiki. techniques and tactics from the other arts have been invaluable, but doctrine and strategy are what carries the day.

    And, yes, a civilian streetfight does require different doctrine from a military or police CQC situation. but it also requires different doctrine from sporting events, NHB or not.

    Just my humble opinion...

    Respectfully,

    Matthew Little

  12. #57
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default

    Matt,

    Welcome, brother. We have quite a few laterals from your neck of the woods working for us now. Great guys, almost to a man.

    I should re-state my comments...agreed you should always proceed with the plus 1 rule, (plus one weapon, plus one bad guy) in ANY arrest situation. But that does not mean we can shoot anyone we THINK is armed, or has a buddy that intends to blindside us. We will then have to adapt our tactics to being sound for a lethal force engagement, even when lethal force is not an option.

    You'll probably have to get around to having to state what you mean by aiki....your profile says aiki-DO. The folks here mean aikiJUJUTSU.

    I am not an aiki-jujutsuka, but it seems I have heard, more than once, that aiki-DO doesn't count in terms of "combative" doctrine ...
    Last edited by Kit LeBlanc; 12th February 2002 at 03:14.

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Planet Earth
    Posts
    47
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default menkyo kaiden

    Arman,

    Yes I do have one laying around somewhere, ordered from a study group for $2.99.

    Not worth much though....

    You got me though. My first mistake was not wearing a hakama. What I should have said "Now that I understand universe reality and fundamental dynamic of energy transference, once I perceived in my inner man that there was a rift in the space/time continuum; I blended with the hostile forces to harmonize all seen and unseen movements with the violent attackers intentions. The proper use of stance, distance, eyes, breath and intention all culminated in an orgasmic eruption of perfect technique sending the now unbalanced attackers flying in all directions. The engagement ceased. Once the smoke cleared all was as it should be…..

    Kit,

    Work me on the ground baby! I am going to make your work for it though!!! First you must get through the Ol’ man James first….
    Ken J. Good
    Strategos International
    http://stategosintl.com
    [/url]

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Iraq/Chicago
    Posts
    31
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Kit,

    Thanks for the welcome. I couldn't agree with your lethal force comments more. Shame though for trying to get me embroiled in yet another internet "I'm more Aiki than you are" war...

    Respectfully,

    Matt Little

    P.S. What neck of the woods are you in? While I am quite sure you are most likely far better than I at newaza, I'd love to play also.

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Iraq/Chicago
    Posts
    31
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Ken,

    Will you be training at the Aiki Expo or only demonstrating? I'm going to try and attend, and would love the chance to train with you and James if possible.

    Matt Little

Page 4 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The kata-speed used in the Koryu traditions
    By Fred27 in forum Sword Arts Forum Message Archive
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 1st August 2007, 13:50
  2. Motobu Choki
    By Troll Basher in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 99
    Last Post: 25th August 2005, 19:12
  3. 1978 Interview with Soken Hohan by Ernest Estrada
    By CEB in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 14th July 2003, 03:44
  4. Kata
    By Paihequan in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 5th January 2003, 20:40
  5. How Many Kata Are Enough?
    By Victor in forum Karate Archive
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 7th October 2002, 04:06

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •