Excellent post, Nathan, I would split hairs with you on one or two things, but by and large you make a very good point.
Excellent post, Nathan, I would split hairs with you on one or two things, but by and large you make a very good point.
Hi Nathan,
Thanks for the quick reply. I understand what your saying, but doesn't Judo kinda do this with the appropriate amount of balance between: kata, randori and shiai? I know Judo has become very sport oriented and follows certain rules in competition, but certainly the strategy of vying for position and opportunity can shift to finishing the opponent in one decisive action during a combat situation. The key is how well the judokas are trained to handle the stress of combat (in randori or shiai) in order for them to execute that "practical kata" we were discussing previously.
Last edited by Eric Joyce; 7th January 2009 at 02:30. Reason: typo
Sincerely,
Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
Eric
Yes and no.
As a judoka, I can attest that judo training is an excellent base for combatives. Combined with kata, and realistic combative training, it is perhaps among the best out there for a practical, realistic, and adaptable art. Nothing in the martial arts I have experienced has mimicked the pace and dynamic of a real world hand to hand fight as judo shiai. I would take a purely sport focussed judoka over a purely kata trained classical martial artist or "modern combatives" type as my backup any day of the week.
Position is critical in close combat. "Position before submission" is true of Judo, BJJ, as well as armed combatives with weapons in the mix. Judo, though not directly addressing this, trains many fundamentals that are directly applicable.
That being said, shiai exists for shiai's sake, and it ingrains very bad habits among many judoka who simply do not see it as primarily a combative art. Depending upon the judoka, and his ability to see beyond the competition mat, this could have deleterious effects on "real world" fighting ability.
I have met both types on the judo mat. Some of the best competitors are the best "real world" fighters I have ever met, and have proven it.
I sometimes wonder what judo would be had Kano been a professional soldier or police officer rather than an educator. In some ways it would be very different. In others, I think the most important ones, it would be the same.
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:33.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
Hi Kit and Nathan,
I just re-read some of the old posts (thanks for the quote from MarkF (RIP). Great amount of information which I will read in more detail tonight. Good discussion too
Last edited by Eric Joyce; 7th January 2009 at 15:42. Reason: typo
Sincerely,
Eric Joyce
Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu
I would strongly recommend the following book:
Karate and Ki: The Origin of Ki- The depth of Thought. Kenji Ushiro
This book specifically addresses issues related to Kata. Nathan's position would be elaborated and expanded.
Respectfully,
Marc Abrams
Dr. Marc Abrams
www.aasbk.com
As an add to Dr. Abrams, the book also notes sparring is part of practice at Shindo Ryu dojo and describes how kata came through in sparring for Ushiro Sensei.
Andrew De Luna
Andrew:
Ushiro Sensei has a logical progression from kata, bunkai kumite (moves from kata in sparring situations) to kumite. He is a strong advocate that if you cannot apply what you learn to kumite then you are not doing something right. The interesting thing is that training under him has made my application of Aikido much improved and capable of being utilized with strikers.
Marc Abrams
Dr. Marc Abrams
www.aasbk.com
I would like to respond to Meynards challenge. First, let me point out that Soke Angiers’ curriculum is completely based on old school techniques. Don has not changed his style since first being taught by Kenji. Believe me when I say that I have tried to elicit change. For a long time, I wanted Don to reverse the first list and get the guys up to speed with hands, feet, and the ground work portions of the curriculum. He sat me down one day and told me that if I wanted to teach my ‘stuff’, I was more than welcome to teach it any way I chose. But, he went on to say, that he started from the beginning in order to build a foundation necessary for what would come later. He felt that if students started their training incorrectly,the foundation for weapon work would fail. It’s difficult to work on one technique ad nauseam, or practice rolling till you bleed, but that is the price one pays for later perfection.
Students with a small amount of training, those that are young and of whole body, want the challenge to perform more technically advanced work. However, they lack the technical training and ability, or patience. In reality, if a student had trained in these systems adhering to the original design structure, they would have started rolling and falling as a child, competently acquiring the basics as a teenager, and training many hours a day. If a student is only training twice a week in the evening, to accomplish the basic technical moves takes a much longer amount of time.
The style of Aikijujitsu that Soke Angier teaches, as James discussed,is a weapons-based system . Soke Angier spent many years as an undercover police officer, working with every imaginable bad element found on the streets. This gave him the unique opportunity to determine firsthand which strategies and techniques were successful, and which needed revision. From this he learned to stick to his own convictions; play his own game. Never, ever get sucked into playing your opponents game. Soke Angier had the basic concept that your hands were made to facilitate tool usage. He felt you should have plenty of tools, be proficient at using them, and know their capability.
Now, to address the issue of open competition. If weapons were used, it would be more in line with the strategic conditions of Yanagi Ryu. Some, but not all of Soke Angiers students have trained in the submission styles and MMA. Some came to the school I ran in Glendale. There were a number of high ranking practitioners of Jujitsu, some from Gene Labells, others from the new MMA groups that were just getting starting.
I firmly believe that people need to be in tune to the current trends in both sport and competition martial training. I applaud the current direction and evolution of the MMA and the resurgence of quality Jujitsu. It brings to the forefront credibility in all aspects of what hand- to-hand conflict can be. Keep in mind, however, this current trend toward hand-to-hand was not used as a primary method historically.
Whether in Europe or Asia, everyone carried multiple weapons. If one was to be successful, training required practicing with a variety of weapons. If you take a look at the the older systems of training that are weapons- based, you quickly realize that sticking out an arm or a leg was ill advised. Damage was usually severe.
Aikijujitsu is a weapons-based system, primarily, with its curriculum developing students’ core movements based on body mechanics. No matter how monotonous and repetitious it might seem at the beginning, ultimately you progress to proficiently in the fundamentals of Aikijujitsu.
Aikijujitsu as taught by Soke Angier is a well principled curriculum, complete with all the disciplines one would expect in a martial system. Having that said, he and his students don’t mind “mixing it up;” the end results might be different than you’d expect. For instance, how about a sharp, pointy item piercing an artery or some other target of opportunity as a primary strategy, instead of just “punching it out.” Like I said, Don likes to mix it up with some nasty “in fighting” just for fun now and then.
I hope I have corrected the misconception that the beginning curriculum; the joint and body manipulation; is not the primary objective but a tool to build the body mechanics necessary for further instruction and a better foundation for the core of the system. As I’ve stated, it is indeed just a tool to cement the foundation necessary for the advanced principles.
Toby. Why is it that out of all of us old guys I am the one without any hair? Perhaps I looked into the mirror to much.
Respectfully to all....
One mans opinion.
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:34.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
FWIW...
It should be noted that Meynard was only training with Angier sensei for about 2-3 years before he started going to Tim’s. That’s barely getting the basics in body control. Especially since the whole first year is mostly ukemi and solo exercises. It didn’t surprise me at all that they wiped the mat with him, he was just really a beginner at the time. He felt that his technique should work against any opponent, regardless. Rules or no rules he said it should be able to adapt. (Incidentally, I went to observe the training there with him once and they imposed a lot of rules including no dynamic locks, digit locks, and several types of strikes were prohibited… all things basic to Yanagi ryu) When he failed he basically blamed the art and the training, rather than himself.
Barely having a grasp of the basics and then trying to pit techniques you haven’t “mastered” against people doing a completely different system with a different set of assumptions in their training is premature regardless of what style you do.
Put a BJJ guy outside against a teenage girl with comparable training in naginata and I’d put my money on the girl.
You can’t expect to do well when you are taken out of your element, especially when you are a beginner. On the same token, if, after a respectable amount of time training you are so single-minded that you cannot adapt your art to whatever you encounter then you deserve the wake-up call. But rather than change systems take what you’ve learned out of the box and see what it can do. It is called jujutsu after all.
Richard Elias
Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu
Yanagi Ryu
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 12th June 2014 at 04:34.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
as always, great deal of information to digest and to think about.. more reasons to go Kata & Ohyo training. Thank you very much Scott sensei et al. I will certainly utilize all the information I can get for my next article!
Ben Haryo (This guy has low IQ and uses a dialect which vaguely resembles Bad English).