Likes Likes:  0
Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 135

Thread: Sparring vs. Kata

  1. #76
    scott nichols Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Nathan Scott
    Hi all,

    Thanks for the interesting contributions and words of encouragement. Say, why don't we all exchange valentines cards?



    I know I'll catch flak for this, but personally I don't have any problems with Ueshiba Morihei sensei's original "Aikido" - aside from perhaps the degree of Omoto influence on the art. I believe that what is practiced today is, in some cases more and in some cases less, a shell of what Aikido was intended to be on a technically martial level. I've got some writings I've been trying to get around to regarding this subject that I'll be sure to post here for further discussion.

    I've got to go rest my brain bucket in a direct gravitational force vector with my pillow (man, you guys have the coolest phrases. How come we don't have this kind of stuff in Japanese?).

    Regards,

    Nathan, Please post the writings you mentioned above. I would be very interested to hear what you have to say on the subject. I must agree with your opinion of Aikido. As a relative newcomer to the practice, I find myself feeling more and more that something is missing. The techniques are simply too easy to counter. I feel as if I am missing something very important, that should be inherent in the technique, but that has been removed...Scott Nichols

  2. #77
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    280
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Scott,

    Something removed, eh? I can't imagine what?

    Cheers,
    Arman Partamian
    Daito-ryu Study Group
    Maryland

  3. #78
    Maximilian Guest

    Smile Sparring

    Tom although I agree with you in many principles.
    I will subscribe from experience that non Daito-Ryu
    partners will incur the danger of serious harm or
    injury. Having practiced Daito-Ryu for a long time
    I and survived 2 deadly encounters thanks to it I
    must disagree with you as to allowing non practicioner
    practice. At best in Aikijiujitsu you control the power
    of your technique to stun or temporary disablement of
    your opponent.

    When those of us who understand this practice with each
    othe we still manage from time to time to incapacitate
    or class mates on a temporary basis. This not an art
    that you experiment with it in the mat with you refine
    it carefully with your classmates and keep it simple
    and to the point.

    As to deadly nature of the art I can vouch for it's deadly
    nature and not for the "sport of it" Martial Arts are that
    a Martial form of Combat developed not for sport but maim,
    cripple or dispose of your opponent depending on the situation
    at hand.

    Some people are born warriors and understand this and never
    have to prove anything. Others because of insecurities and
    other issues feel that they must prove to the world how
    tough they are and that is fine. The true Martial Artis will
    never have to do this as they know what they can do and how
    without causing harm to others.

    I do like your text on the mental attitude which is the
    primordial urge. Fear is the mind killer the little death
    that defeats you before you go into combat.

    Thanks,

    Maximilian Schell

  4. #79
    Maximilian Guest

    Default

    Nathan I agree with your comment about traditional
    Martial Arts and Modern Arts. The traditional Art
    focuses in the part of not wasting time on more
    than one waza it was developed for full combats.

    I am for one practicing both Traditional and Non
    Traditional Arts. And have gained a healthy respect
    for non violence. The knowledge of what ones mindeset
    can do is very important. I for one quit competitive
    sports a long time ago because the realization that
    Martial Arts are not one I have focused on the Art
    as it was inteded to be one of Combat and where an
    opponent makes his/her decision to engage you that
    you must do what is necessary to stay alive.

    Street encounters are not fun and can develop rather
    quickly into a deadly situation and to adapt the Higher
    level Arts to modern instruction is really no feasible.
    I commend your attitude in how you teach your students.
    I only wish there were more teachers like you.

    Maximilian Schell

  5. #80
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,714
    Likes (received)
    153

    Default

    Maximilion wrote:

    >snip< At best in Aikijiujitsu you control the power of your technique to stun or temporary disablement of your opponent.

    When those of us who understand this practice with each other we still manage from time to time to incapacitate or class mates on a temporary basis. This not an art that you experiment with it in the mat with you refine it carefully with your classmates and keep it simple and to the point."


    This is not an art you play with -- it is one that was designed with lethality or at least physiological disruption as its prime objective. Even under the most controlled and safeguarded dojo situations, there are serious injuries.

    The higher the degree of skill in aikijujutsu, the more cautious one has to be. It gets to the point where the practitioner doesn't realize how much power he is generating, because it requires so little effort or movement. That's when serious injury can occur to a training partner unless everyone maintains constant vigilence.

    There are exponents who have no idea how much damage they are doing to others, because it "feels like nothing" to them. It's not until they themselves experience the technique of advanced students that they understand and realize that things need toning down. Even at my low level of experience, a practice session becomes exhausting because of the intense concentration and control required.

    I'd never suggest that an aikijutusuka spar with a non-ajj person. It's too risky. You can't "pull" technique the way PKers can to create a sparring situation. You either "do" or you "don't do." As Maxmilian wrote, the best you can manage is to control the opponent so that he/she can no longer spar. That seems counterproductive to the whole notion of sparring, since sparring is meant to be prolonged. AJJ is meant to end things before they even begin.
    Last edited by Cady Goldfield; 18th February 2002 at 14:31.
    Cady Goldfield

  6. #81
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    I think the conversations taken a left and gone way over the top.


    X art______________fill in blank; Isn't anything that is an absolute. To say "this" is always "this or that"- obfuscates the largest variable-PEOPLE. Selling AJJ as this "deadly art" may well be a problem for some people to back up with more than words. As such, I would be very circumspect in my statements in consideration of some of the people you are talking to here. Don't get me wrong I love it too. But making statements like this will always beg the question from experienced men. I have taken apart that very same "deadly art" position more than once. In person.

    I don't know who you guys play with but I have met my share of AJJ people, BJJ people, Goju and Judoka who were rather inept fighters. And then I have met the same who were a handful.
    AJJ, as a whole, is more than just hand to hand-see the above posts-and needs to be intelligently discussed in that manner. It has a very wide cirriculum with a plethora of finishing techniques that can be trimmed to a persons needs or mission statements.


    When dealing with an art you need to describe its principles, tactics and techniques and its potential as a whole.
    Whether those same principles are fully explored by any one branch or exponent is highly variable.
    Also, learning anything "only" through a strict Kata process makes anyone’s fighting abilities open for question.

    Ms. Goldfields experiences are her own and may not fairly reflect the kata offered in standard DR or other AJJ training.

    Lets be a little more balanced in our statements. And discussions of injuries in a dojo setting don't impress me much. On the whole they may not adequately reflect the standard "effectiveness question" for the simple reason of "Who's doing the teaching?" They can be had from inept cooperative style training, inept receiving of technique or highly challenging training that does reflect the effectiveness question.
    So for any practical means of communicating a point-they are merely injuries in training. Judo and Aikido have them too.

    So I guess the question isn't does "it" work-but rather can you make "it" work. And even then, that isn't enough. Can the majority of the people you have met in "it"__________(fill in blank) make it work in any highly stressed force on force venue?
    If not be careful what you say.

    cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 17th February 2002 at 20:02.

  7. #82
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    I think the conversations taken a left and gone way over the top.


    X art______________fill in blank; Isn't anything that is an absolute. To say "this" is always "this or that"- obfuscates the largest variable-PEOPLE. Selling AJJ as this "deadly art" may well be a problem for some people to back up with more than words. As such, I would be very circumspect in my statements in consideration of some of the people you are talking to here. Don't get me wrong I love it too. But making statements like this will always beg the question from experienced men. I have taken apart that very same "deadly art" position more than once. In person.

    I don't know who you guys play with but I have met my share of AJJ people, BJJ people, Goju and Judoka who were rather inept fighters. And then I have met the same who were a handful.
    AJJ, as a whole, is more than just hand to hand-see the above posts-and needs to be intelligently discussed in that manner. It has a very wide cirriculum with a plethora of finishing techniques that can be trimmed to a persons needs or mission statements.


    When dealing with an art you need to describe its principles, tactics and techniques and its potential as a whole.
    Whether those same principles are fully explored by any one branch or exponent is highly variable.
    Also, learning anything "only" through a strict Kata process makes anyone’s fighting abilities open for question.

    Ms. Goldfields experiences are her own and may not fairly reflect the kata offered in standard DR or other AJJ training.

    Lets be a little more balanced in our statements. And discussions of injuries in a dojo setting don't impress me much. On the whole they may not adequately reflect the standard "effectiveness question" for the simple reason of "Who's doing the teaching?" They can be had from inept cooperative style training, inept receiving of technique or highly challenging training that does reflect the effectiveness question.
    So for any practical means of communicating a point-they are merely injuries in training. Judo and Aikido have them too.

    So I guess the question isn't does "it" work-but rather can you make "it" work. And even then, that isn't enough. Can the majority of the people you have met in "it"__________(fill in blank) make it work in any highly stressed force on force venue?
    If not be careful what you say.

    cheers
    Dan
    Thank You, Dan Harden.

  8. #83
    Maximilian Guest

    Default

    Dan I won't beat around the bush with you. AJJ is deadly it's main principle during Imperial Japan was to cripple or permanently eliminate your opponent. It is not a Sport and it is very dangerous under the best of controlled circumstances.

    The strategy of AJJ is not one of subduing your enemy, I practice with some very adavanced people and we do our best, inuries happen and not by design but because the way the Waza are designed. With that I am not saying AJJ is the best or the worst. But in the context of those of us who take a traditional Art that has been handed down for over 900 years and understand the principles.

    In a force on force deal AJJ works just as good, why? Use the amount of energy and force you generate internally to overcome your opponent are sufficient. Your opponent may be physically stronger yet by applying the proper body motions and dynamics you will overcome them.

    Ask any Marine that came across a japanese infantryman in hand to hand combat and lived to tell. Size does not matter, why do you think the American Gen. MacArthur forbade the practice of Martial Arts? specially in the context they were taught during WWII? They were effective, deadly, and almost impossible to counter.

    In AJJ the majority of us are above 30 professionals and with a commitment to the Art that goes beyond simple sport, that was in the begining we have outgrown Martial Sports now we practice Martial Arts.


    Thank you,

    Maximilian Schell
    Last edited by Maximilian; 17th February 2002 at 20:29.

  9. #84
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Yawn!

    cave quid dicis, quando, et cui

    Dan

  10. #85
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    135
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Maximilian,

    Who do you study AJJ with and what style?

    James
    James Willliams
    Kaicho
    Nami ryu

  11. #86
    Maximilian Guest

    Default

    James I have studied AJJ for several years in Japan. As to who my Teacher is that is not for me to reveal as he is well respected. As such my opinions here are my own. I will not question anyones credentials in here as I epxpected everyone in here to be Martial Artists and true professionals where we can espouse our views without having to be questioned as to who we represent and who we learn from.

    If the Titles Mean everything in hear I am sorry to have joined this place. I will humbly retire my name and my opinions from here. And ask everybody's forgiveness if I have offended anyone. I never said
    AJJ is the best or worst. It was created for the purpose of war and that is all.

    Respectfully Maximilian Schell.


    a humble student of martial arts

  12. #87
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    135
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Maximilian,

    What a strange reply to a simple question. Why would you bring up the question of credentials when all I asked was who you trained with and what style? If you wish to retire from this forum when asked simple questions that of course is your choice. When people voice opinions here it is nice to know who they are and where they trained, no big deal. When Karl Friday, Ellis Amdur, Toby Threadgill, Dan Hardin, etc. post we know who they are and where they trained. This gives credibility to their opinions and helps everyone to understand their viewpoint. This in turn leads to positive discussion, if not always agreement. and we all usually learn something from that discussion. It has been my experience over the last four decades of study in martial arts that secrecy greatly diminishes credibility.
    James Willliams
    Kaicho
    Nami ryu

  13. #88
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Honolulu, Hawaii
    Posts
    455
    Likes (received)
    9

    Default

    Originally posted by Maximilian
    Ask any Marine that came across a japanese infantryman in hand to hand combat and lived to tell. Size does not matter, why do you think the American Gen. MacArthur forbade the practice of Martial Arts? specially in the context they were taught during WWII? They were effective, deadly, and almost impossible to counter.
    Apparently that's more or less a myth. Kendo and Judo were deemed inappropriate as part of the public school curriculum, and many martial artists (Japanese ones) became confused as to what and wasn't allowed. However, there was no general ban on the practice of martial arts (according to K. Ueshiba in "Aikido Ichiro", which discusses the post-war situation in detail).

    Best,

    Chris

  14. #89
    Maximilian Guest

    Default

    Dan I like latin


    Haec ego non multis (scribo), sed tibi: satis enim magnum alter alteri theatrum sumus.

  15. #90
    Maximilian Guest

    Default

    I study Martial Arts for my own general
    knowledge. But I also research a lot on
    many of these Arts, as such the words I
    write here are taken from the text of those
    books my research has taken me into in the
    bookstores, and libraries of Japan.

    I have studied at the university of Munich
    as psychologist, Loyola University MBA in
    philosophy. And currently going back to
    Japan to finish my studies in Oriental
    Civilizations.

    As such my writings here are more from
    a learned perspective into the Arts of
    War of Oriental Culture rather than practical
    knowledge.

    Every name you mentioned here Mr. Williams
    well respected in the US and abroad as
    Martial Artists who understand the Arts of
    War from a practical Perspective. Me on
    the other hand have gained my knowledge
    from reading and conversing with those
    whose families were there and survive
    today.

    Thank you,

    Max Schell

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. The kata-speed used in the Koryu traditions
    By Fred27 in forum Sword Arts Forum Message Archive
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 1st August 2007, 13:50
  2. Motobu Choki
    By Troll Basher in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 99
    Last Post: 25th August 2005, 19:12
  3. 1978 Interview with Soken Hohan by Ernest Estrada
    By CEB in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 14th July 2003, 03:44
  4. Kata
    By Paihequan in forum Ryukyuan Unarmed Martial Arts
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 5th January 2003, 20:40
  5. How Many Kata Are Enough?
    By Victor in forum Karate Archive
    Replies: 58
    Last Post: 7th October 2002, 04:06

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •